----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Geisler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org>
Cc: <lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org>
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
"Stephen Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
If you download a .bst file from the internet and put it into C:\My
research papers along with research.lyx it doesn't work, not because
of some alleged problem that reflects to C:\My Documents, but for
the same reason C:\program files\texmf doesn't work. It has nothing
to do with retraining.
And I consider both of these problems to be a bug when I encounter
them under Windows. Spaces in paths are a *normal* thing under
Windows, and programs ported to Windows should be able to deal with
them. If not, then I really think the problem lies with the program.
I use Linux myself and there we all know that spaces in file names are
nasty thing because they cause different problems for shell scripts.
So in Linux the norm is to avoid spaces, and so everything works fine.
--------------------------------------------------------------
SH: I am not so sure that you followed this thread. So I'm going
to requote Bo Peng, his complaint and suggested solution which
has introduced the "path with spaces" aspect of this discussion.
<quoting BO>: Dear list,
Under linux, I can put a customized .bst file with the lyx file and
use it in the 'bibtex bibliography" dialog. This does not work under
windows. Is it because bibtex can not find the .bst file? Bo ...
If you View->LaTeX info->BibTeX styles, can you see the .bst file?
No. The .bst file is under the same directory as the .lyx file. I use
'browse' in the bib tex dialog to use it. Under linux, this is enough. Bo
I am not quite sure why miktex/bibtex can not handle a path with
spaces, whereas miktex/latex can. Anyway, if this is a problem that
will be classified as WONTFIX, it would be better to warn the user
about this when a .bst file is selected in the bibtex dialog. If a
user is *allowed* to select and use a .bst file, and end up with no
bibliography in the output, his confidence in lyx will suffer. Bo
<end of quoting Bo>
SH: I'm going to summarize my understanding of his posts.
Under Linux, Bo was able to browse to a directory that contained
a customized (downloaded from internet) .bst file and this worked.
Under Windows, Bo browsed to a directory containing a customized
.bst file and it didn't work.
Bo thought this behavior was inconsistent and unexpected so that
a warning ought to be included in the Lyx online documentation.
Do you understand his posts the same way?
I think there is very likely an error in Bo's reasoning. Bo placed
the .bst file in a Windows directory which contained spaces.
It didn't work and that is expected. I don't know for sure, but
I think it is quite likely that the Linux case which did work, had
the .bst placed in a directory path which had no spaces. This
is expected and so the overall behavior is consistent and does
not need LyX online documentation. Instructions already exist.
How would Bo's warning be implemented? The LyX browse option
would have to analyze the Windows installation directory to see if
it contained spaces. If there are no spaces it works. So the LyX
browse option ought to determine that the Windows folder contains
spaces and then produce a popup warning which says "The browse
option is not available since you have installed a .bst file to a
Windows directory without spaces." I don' think so.
What I do think is that the Miktex install instructions say: "It is
recommended that you install Miktex to directory without spaces."
The default install directory used during Miktex setup is: C:\texmf
Miktex instruction state to install .bst files in C:\texmf\bibtex\bst
and that is the default install directory.
If a poweruser elects to ignore installation recommendation and
change the default install directory of Miktex/texmf then that user
assumes the responsibility of knowing the consequences of such
a change, and to implement a deviation from the default in such
a way that the install is not defeated by his interventions. It is not
the responsibility of Lyx online documentation to warn the user
of his oversights/mistakes in modifying another program's defaults.
There are dozens of newcomer mistakes that result in LyX or its
helper applications that arise from not following instruction and
result in some type of malfunction. Whether it is the newcomer lack
of knowledge or the poweruser's failure to anticipate consequences
of his shortcut, there is one description which describes both failures.
User installation error. There is nothing special about a poweruser
error which deserves its own special specific online LyX explanation.
--------------------------------------------------------------
But when I installed LyX for my girlfriend I made a directory called
`LyX Test' and fooled around in it to see what this thing was all
about. And when I wanted to include a custom .bst file I placed it in
the same directory only to be met with errors. Coming from Linux I
soon suspected the "weird" path name and renamed the directory ---
and things worked fine.
So please don't dismiss this as a WONTFIX bug... lots of people wont
have a Linux-savy boyfriend to help them out with these things :-)
--
Martin Geisler
SH: Lots of people won't need a Linux-savvy boyfriend to help
them out with these things, because the problem won't exist.
The problem is created by the Linux-savvy/poweruser boyfriend
in the first place.
The Windows user without the hacker proclivity follows the setup
defaults and puts the .bst files into a directory designated by the
doc to contain them. If they acquire a custom .bst file they follow
the documented procedure for placing them in that same designated
location. Per instruction, they run Miktex options Refresh. Then Lyx
Reconfigure and maybe Rescan and then the installation functions as
expected and doesn't need additional online Lyx documentation.
Then there is no user created problem which requires Lyx
development support.
This is not a LyX problem. A .lyx file can be installed to My
Documents without a path with spaces problem. This is a Miktex
"limitation". If the Lyx developers are expected to fix Miktex
path with spaces problem why not other problems with the other
helper programs, Ghostscript, Python, etc.?
I think there is an endless list of LyX improvements that deserve
the rather finite time/effort of LyX developers. There are two
solutions already available: change C:\My Research Papers to
C:\My_Research_Papers or update the bst directory as stated.
Instead you want a lot of effort expended to benefit a huge
minority of Windows users who know enought to benefit
from the convenience you request. Again (snipped Ms) you
substitute your speculation for an informed view.
Angus is largely responsible for the official port of Lyx to the
Windows platform and holds a qualifed and informed view:
"Ahhhh. Don't do that. BibTeX and "spaces in paths" don't live well
together. In fact they don't live together at all.
We jump through a lot of hoops to ensure that your BibTeX database will
continue to work if it lives in a path with spaces. I don't see any reason
at all to add a heap of fragile code to cover the .bst file too.
In my view this one get's filed under WONTFIX."
SH: If it didn't require a great deal of effort to make the kludge
work, the MikTex developer would have already done it.
