Yes, Chris, the busy busy in numbers got to the point where it was ridiculous and slowed my productivity to a halt. I was using large spread sheets I had built over time to manage a large amount of data, and finally just had enough with it with the busy issues and voiceover completely stopping allowing me to enter text in a cell causing me to have to constantly quit numbers and reopen so I could enter info in to cells. I had contacted apple accessibility several times but continued to get the we are aware of the problem but don't know when it will be fixed. After about a year of that, I finally made the jump to using tap forms. Is it as good as using a spread sheet program like numbers, no, but it doesn't crash and I have had very minor issues using it. I am keeping my fingers crossed for a major update to numbers in Maverisk. I also use pages, and guess I am not doing much complex stuff with tables or fonts because I have had very little issue with it as far as accessibility, and use it on a daily basis. On Jul 22, 2013, at 2:41 PM, Chris Moore <moor...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> I totally share your pain with Numbers. I do a great deal of spreadsheet > work and would love to use Numbers. The applications is a nightmare, and > such a let down with Voiceover. Real shame, as it actually has the potential > to be very good. I prefer to use a spreadsheet that can cope with more than > a few cells before constantly announcing how busy it is. > On 22 Jul 2013, at 19:20, Brian Fischler <blindga...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hey Gordon, >> >> First, my bad, as I get all these emails in one mail folder, and just >> assumed this was the Google group, macvisionaries where several months ago I >> got blasted on that one for expressing my opinion about numbers having so >> many issues. I have not been blasted on this list which I enjoy very much, >> and love people having a difference of opinions and being able to express >> them in a polite way. I will reach out to you later and explain my issue >> with numbers, but I stopped using it a few months ago because of these >> issues, and I pretty much summed it up in a post here, but will send you >> something later today. Thanks >> On Jul 22, 2013, at 1:22 PM, Gordon Smith <gor...@mac-access.net> wrote: >> >>> Hi Brian >>> >>> A couple of things here. Firstly, I dispute your assertion that you were >>> "Blasted" on this list. In this group we have a policy of no flaming, no >>> blasting. So if you can highlight any specifics I would like to know about >>> it. Of course, what you may consider blasting is possibly not what others >>> would. So let me just use this opportunity to remind everybody that no >>> flaming is accepted. We have 0 tolerance of that kind of behaviour. >>> >>> Regarding Apple and accessibility, would you mind getting back to me off >>> list and highlighting precisely as possible, the steps you are taking to >>> reproduce this behaviour? I am not disputing it, neither am I saying >>> you're mistaken. However, I would be most interested to know exactly what >>> you're doing and what your expectation was when you did this. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> >>> <--- Gordon Smith ---> >>> >>> >>> <gor...@mac-access.net> >>> >>> Telephone: >>> >>> United Kingdom: Free Phone: >>> 0800 8620538 >>> >>> Mobile: >>> +44 7907 823971 >>> >>> Europe and other non-specified: >>> +44 1642 688095 >>> >>> United States Of America And Canada: >>> +1 646 9151493 >>> Or: >>> +1 209 436 9443 >>> >>> Vic. Australia: >>> +61 38 8205930 >>> Vic. Australia >>> +61 39 0284505 >>> >>> Fax: >>> +44 1642 365123 >>> >>> Follow Us On Twitter: >>> <http://twitter.com/maciosaccess> >>> >>> Skype: >>> <skype:mac-access-dot-net?call> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 18:30, Brian Fischler <blindga...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hey All, >>>> >>>> Funny as the message you got from Apple on Logic is the same exact >>>> response I have gotten for years from Apple about the awful accessibility >>>> of Numbers which I now no longer use. I got blasted on this list for >>>> listing several issues with mountain lion and voiceover when it came out. >>>> One of the biggest being how they reversed webspots in safari. How in the >>>> world could this not have been noticed if they are actually testing >>>> accessibility? In Lion you would hit VO command right bracket and you >>>> could go down down a page to the next webspot, not in Mountain Lion they >>>> reversed it which makes no sense as you click VO command right bracket and >>>> instead of going down and to the right, right bracket takes you to the >>>> left, and left bracket takes you to the right. Ok, simple enough to fix I >>>> assumed, and assumed in the next mountain lion update it would be >>>> corrected. Nope, they never fixed what seemed to me to probably be one of >>>> the easiest things to fix. There have been virtually zero improvements to >>>> VO in any mountain lion updates. I will continue using my mac, and do love >>>> my mac, but have been very disappointed with VO improvements in mountain >>>> lion, and will be hesitant to upgrade to maverick as I am worried or >>>> concerned about more idiotic VO things that Apple obviously doesn't test. >>>> I'm sorry but you can't tell me this webspot thing was tested as anyone >>>> who used it before mountain lion would have noticed immediately in >>>> mountain lion how broken it was. Just my thoughts. >>>> On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:25 AM, Chris Moore <moor...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac >>>>> is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a >>>>> productive tool for the blind. >>>>> >>>>> I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. >>>>> We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream >>>>> press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap >>>>> Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each >>>>> time a new OS comes out. >>>>> >>>>> We need to keep making a noise and more of it. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Chris, >>>>>> >>>>>> Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've >>>>>> been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of >>>>>> accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent >>>>>> on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with >>>>>> justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU >>>>>> disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is >>>>>> dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as >>>>>> good as it's going to get. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> >>>>>> Dónal >>>>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, "Chris Gilland" <ch...@clgproductions.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, >>>>>>> and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug >>>>>>> reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. >>>>>>> In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in >>>>>>> Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't >>>>>>> legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got >>>>>>> back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know >>>>>>> about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way >>>>>>> it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but >>>>>>> I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen >>>>>>> to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah k Alawami" >>>>>>> <marri...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> To: "Mac OSX & iOS Accessibility" <mac-access@mac-access.net> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I >>>>>>> doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not >>>>>>> ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. >>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory <joshkar...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This reminds me of humanware, LOL. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick >>>>>>>> <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care >>>>>>>>> (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled >>>>>>>>> themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Does my sarcasm come across? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dónal >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (message starts) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>> Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in >>>>>>>>> Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving >>>>>>>>> accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this >>>>>>>>> goal. >>>>>>>>> Apple Accessibility >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (message ends) >>>>>>>>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>>>>>>>> School of Computing, >>>>>>>>> Dublin City University, >>>>>>>>> Glasnevin, >>>>>>>>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>>>>>>>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>>>>>>>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>>>>>>>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Email Disclaimer >>>>>>>>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and >>>>>>>>> are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised >>>>>>>>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any >>>>>>>>> attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail >>>>>>>>> in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views >>>>>>>>> or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the >>>>>>>>> author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City >>>>>>>>> University. 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We assume neither liability nor >>>>>>>>> responsibility should something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to >>>>>>>> ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, >>>>>>>> Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace >>>>>>>> your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor >>>>>>>> responsibility should something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own >>>>>>> security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility >>>>>>> should something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own >>>>>>> security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility >>>>>>> should something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>>>>> School of Computing, >>>>>> Dublin City University, >>>>>> Glasnevin, >>>>>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>>>>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>>>>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>>>>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>>>>> >>>>>> Email Disclaimer >>>>>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are >>>>>> intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised >>>>>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any >>>>>> attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in >>>>>> error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or >>>>>> opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author >>>>>> and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. >>>>>> E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be >>>>>> virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does >>>>>> not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please >>>>>> consider the environment before printing this e-mail." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>> >>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>>> >>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>>> >>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>> >>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>> >>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>>>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>> >>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>> >>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>> >>>> >>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>> >>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>> >>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>> >>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >>>> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >>>> unpredictable happen. >>>> >>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>> visiting the list website at: >>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>> >>> >>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>> >>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>> >>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>> >>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >>> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >>> unpredictable happen. >>> >>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>> visiting the list website at: >>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>> >> >> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >> >> To reply to this post, please address your message to >> mac-access@mac-access.net >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at >> either the list's own dedicated web archive: >> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >> or at the public Mail Archive: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >> >> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that >> the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >> unpredictable happen. >> >> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >> visiting the list website at: >> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >> > > <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> > > To reply to this post, please address your message to > mac-access@mac-access.net > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at > either the list's own dedicated web archive: > <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> > or at the public Mail Archive: > <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. > Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: > <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> > > As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that > the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and > worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security > strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something > unpredictable happen. > > Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by > visiting the list website at: > <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> > <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> or at the public Mail Archive: <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/>
