Hi all I just got a look at this thread. It seems that, once again, I am ignorant of how we, as equal citizens with equal legal responsibilities should view ourselves as apple customers. I wonder if someone might please educate me on what is wrong with the proposition that we should have some sort of audio demonstrations of upcoming apple accessibility developments. Please allow me to explain myself.
Of course the idea that we are entitled to this information as blind people is completely ridiculous, but I still wonder why no one is bothered that apple don't put out a demo of the technology for us to listen to. Scott you said "You are not entitled to know any more than your sighted counterpart." I agree. As it is, our sighted counterparts get to see live demonstrations of the technologies in which they will invest their money. There was a snow-leopard demo at the last WWDC. When Leopard came out, there was also a WWDC demo and more demos on apple's website. When the iPhone 3gs came out, apple offered a demonstration on their website. When the iPod shuffle came out, apple again offered a demo on their website. In all of these cases, perhaps with the exception of the shuffle and maybe the voice control on the iPhone if you count that as accessibility, there was no demonstration of VoiceOver. Of course, the blind as such a small customer base should give apple no occasion to suffer itself to demonstrate VO before an audience of WWDC developers and customers, who couldn't care less, but is putting up a little audio demonstration on their accessibility page really too much to ask? It is true. I'm not entitled to know anything more than my sighted counterpart, and I guess at this point, that is how things are. The sighted don't know how accessibility works under snow-leopard, just as I don't know. I know that snow-leopard offers the capability to watch movies through finder icons, just as the sighted know. The average sighted joe does not care about accessibility improvements, just as I don't care about watching movies through icons. Something just seems wrong here, though I'm having trouble putting my finger on it. I think that apple customers should be shown the things they care about. Some people care about photos on the mac, so they show them. Some people care about listening to music and watching videos, so they show it. Some people want to be productive in a business setting on their macs, so they show productivity. Some people care about the development tools, so they show those. In our case, we care about accessibility, why not show it, not because we are blind people looking for concessions or special treatment, but as consumers spending money on apple products. I have read the descriptions of snow leopard, and am pretty sure that I will buy a copy when it comes out, because the descriptions on apple's website are compelling enough. Even if accessibility improvements prove to be minor or non-existent, the improvements in speed and stability will make it worth the money. So, I don't feel the need to raise a scandal over the fact that I can't legally listen to an audio demonstration of VoiceOver 3.0. No problem. Nevertheless, the fact that people wanting a little taste of future apple accessibility developments, like the demonstrations that their sighted counterparts get, are so brusquely talked down and at times hunted like criminals and reported to the authorities, continues to elude me. This is the view I have of things now. As I stated before, it is becoming increasingly obvious that it is out-of-step with the common consensus, so I wonder if someone might not come forward and tell me why I am wrong. The perspectives and premises we hold in life profoundly govern the way we carry ourselves in the world. I most certainly would not want to continue harboring views which cause my conduct to be excessively abrasive and unpalatable to those around me. That is why, without sarcasm, I'm asking for a change in perspective for me and the others who ignorantly continue in this error. Best regards Justin Harford On Jul 7, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Scott Howell wrote: > > Oh, no, you as a blind person do not have a right to know anything > different than anyone else. You are not entitled to know any more than > your sighted counterpart. WHen Apple releases the information about > Snow Leopard, you can read and make a decision as to whether or not > you would want to upgrade, just as anyone else would. Being blind does > not extend any special entitlements and any violation of the NDA that > was signed is not only breaking a contract between you and Apple or > whomever you entered into the agreement with, it also jeopardizes > future involvement in other projects. Point is you agreed to a > contract and knowing the terms and conditions of that contract, you > are legally bound and obligated to comply with the agreement. > > > > >> >> fair enough though we are all blind and have a right to know what >> will >> be included in my view >> >> On 7 Jul 2009, at 19:11, Alex Jurgensen wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi, >>> Red flag, >>> >>> We are moving into grey ares. Please keep the posts NDA compliant. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Alex, >>> >>> >>> On 7-Jul-09, at 10:46 AM, Justin Harford wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> It will. >>>> On Jul 7, 2009, at 10:13 AM, william lomas wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> what I meant to say was I am not sure if voice over itself will >>>>> ship >>>>> with voices in italian, greek, arabic, russian polish, etc. or >>>>> whether >>>>> we are still locked down to using acapella >>>>> >>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 18:07, Koumanova Rostislava wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> i did not understand this post. >>>>>> i know that you have to buy the foreign languages. >>>>>> rk >>>>>> Il giorno 07/lug/09, alle ore 18:06, william lomas ha scritto: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it says on the site the quickstart is localised in eighteen >>>>>>> languages >>>>>>> with nine new ones and with the voices you can hear it in your >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> languages >>>>>>> but i hope that the eighteen or so work with pre-defined foreign >>>>>>> voices >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 16:51, Simon Cavendish wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> O yes, I entirely agree. They have always acknowledged my >>>>>>>> posts, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> I'm sure they are trying to do their best in Braille support. I >>>>>>>> wouldn't be without my Mac now. No regrets switching on my >>>>>>>> part! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With best wishes, Simon >>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 16:44, James & Nash wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I hear what you're saying Simon. To Apple's credit, they have >>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>> acknowledged my messages and have offered support where they >>>>>>>>> can. I >>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>> like and would continue to use Windows for things but I do >>>>>>>>> miss >>>>>>>>> Mac. >>>>>>>>> That's >>>>>>>>> why I'm going to purchase a new one. >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Simon Cavendish" <simon.cavend...@googlemail.com> >>>>>>>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 4:34 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have been e-mailing Apple accessibility regarding >>>>>>>>>> providing a >>>>>>>>>> broader support in refreshable Braille for other languages. I >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>> hope >>>>>>>>>> Snow Leopard is going to bring this aspect to those of us who >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> benefit from it. It would certainly accelerate my leaving >>>>>>>>>> Windows >>>>>>>>>> behind altogether. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> With best wishes >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Simon >>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 11:50, James & Nash wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Well on the Snow Leopard page there is a host of different >>>>>>>>>>> features. >>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I >>>>>>>>>>> think I remember reading that something - it may have been >>>>>>>>>>> Voice >>>>>>>>>>> Over - was >>>>>>>>>>> localized in about 40 different languages. But I'm not sure >>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>> Braille >>>>>>>>>>> support. However, if you can some way implement BRLTTY or >>>>>>>>>>> ask >>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>> to do so >>>>>>>>>>> we may get native foreign language Braille support. I think >>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> Linux >>>>>>>>>>> based, so this should not be too difficult. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Take care >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> James >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "william lomas" <lomaswill...@googlemail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:39 AM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> is there a complete list of new features? i.e. >>>>>>>>>>> .do we get new language voices i wonder >>>>>>>>>>> . new braille support in other alnguages? >>>>>>>>>>> etc >>>>>>>>>>> i guess we will not know these details really until the >>>>>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 11:29, James & Nash wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It sounds like Snow Leopard is an upgrade. Is this the >>>>>>>>>>>> case? >>>>>>>>>>>> Fortunately, I >>>>>>>>>>>> have a copy of 10.5 which I bought last year so if so then >>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>> be any problem. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Take care >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> James >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Scott Howell" <s.how...@verizon.net> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:25 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe so, but it will be worth upgrading and the cost is >>>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>> unreal, >>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't make much since to skip this upgrade. There are >>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond accessibility to upgrade. I can guarantee you that >>>>>>>>>>>>> $30 >>>>>>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>>>>>> very small price to pay for the improvements and many of >>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>>>>> not have considered or realized. >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2009, at 2:47 AM, william lomas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> i doubt we get new voices except maybe the ones found in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the i >>>>>>>>>>>>>> phone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going to wait to upgrade i think, what I have now >>>>>>>>>>>>>> works >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fine. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> UPgrading won't give us for example, access to flash >>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>>>>>>> point in me upgrading since a lot of sites I use, require >>>>>>>>>>>>>> flash >>>>>>>>>>>>>> navigation which adobe have not yet incorporated into the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> safari or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> other web browsers >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 02:53, Jenny Kennedy wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay! I'm very very glad to hear this wonderful news. A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bummed I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have a fancy trackpad. I have heard some of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demos >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gestures just sound so cool and fun. I guess I'll just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> old tech. LOL I hope to get an iPhone in the future and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to wait 'til then to try gestures. Unless my getting a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macbook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happens first. But as this one is still fairly newish >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wait. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know by the time it comes time for me to get a new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macbook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they'll of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come up with many more new and cool things. : smiley : >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't wait 'til SL comes out. I know it's not too far >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sounds so awesome. Am keen to hear any new voices. Have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> liked >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the UK voices. The best thing would be a UK version of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> breths and all. I still think that's uber cool how Alex >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jenny >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/6/09, Scott Howell <s.how...@verizon.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jenny, first only the Aluminum MacBooks contain the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multi- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trackpad unless Apple upgrades the MacBook line- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aluminum >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> models are now referred to as the MacBook Pro line. Yes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fine on your model. The most significant requirement is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Intel processor since the Power PC chips, such as found >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> G4/G5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machines will not be supported by SL. I'd recommend you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2Gb ram, but 1Gb will get the job done. The commands, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issued >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the trackpad are the same commands you can issue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VO. It is another means to interact with the os using >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard to say what the future holds for such a trackpad >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VO. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point is that if you have heard the iPhone demos, you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of how the trackpad could behave and a little >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagination >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you to speculate what Apple could possibly do in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, have no fear and prepare to upgrade, it will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 6, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Jenny Kennedy wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay. So am I to understand that the macbook pro line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that has this fancy mousepad thing? I got my macbook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> April >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of 08 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and it is the little white one. I adore it and have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> waiting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SL to come out. Will SL even work at all on this sort >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macbook? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure the os will work but will VO function if I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fancy mousepad thing? Are there keyboard shortcuts to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doable with the mousepad? Sorry to be so abrupt gotta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> run. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thanks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any answers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best wishes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jenny >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/6/09, Claude Renaud <cldren...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello James, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sunday, July 5, 2009, 12:31:19 PM, you wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JN> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JN> I've been reading the new VO features in Snow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leopard. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where di you read this please ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Claude Renaud >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>> >> >> >>> > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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