I agree with you totally Justin Take care
James ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Harford" <blindst...@gmail.com> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:41 PM Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard > > Hi all > > I just got a look at this thread. It seems that, once again, I am > ignorant of how we, as equal citizens with equal legal > responsibilities should view ourselves as apple customers. I wonder > if someone might please educate me on what is wrong with the > proposition that we should have some sort of audio demonstrations of > upcoming apple accessibility developments. Please allow me to explain > myself. > > Of course the idea that we are entitled to this information as > blind people is completely ridiculous, but I still wonder why no one > is bothered that apple don't put out a demo of the technology for us > to listen to. Scott you said > > "You are not entitled to know any more than your sighted counterpart." > > I agree. As it is, our sighted counterparts get to see live > demonstrations of the technologies in which they will invest their > money. There was a snow-leopard demo at the last WWDC. When Leopard > came out, there was also a WWDC demo and more demos on apple's > website. When the iPhone 3gs came out, apple offered a demonstration > on their website. When the iPod shuffle came out, apple again offered > a demo on their website. In all of these cases, perhaps with the > exception of the shuffle and maybe the voice control on the iPhone if > you count that as accessibility, there was no demonstration of > VoiceOver. Of course, the blind as such a small customer base should > give apple no occasion to suffer itself to demonstrate VO before an > audience of WWDC developers and customers, who couldn't care less, but > is putting up a little audio demonstration on their accessibility page > really too much to ask? > > It is true. I'm not entitled to know anything more than my sighted > counterpart, and I guess at this point, that is how things are. The > sighted don't know how accessibility works under snow-leopard, just as > I don't know. I know that snow-leopard offers the capability to watch > movies through finder icons, just as the sighted know. The average > sighted joe does not care about accessibility improvements, just as I > don't care about watching movies through icons. Something just seems > wrong here, though I'm having trouble putting my finger on it. > > I think that apple customers should be shown the things they care > about. Some people care about photos on the mac, so they show them. > Some people care about listening to music and watching videos, so they > show it. Some people want to be productive in a business setting on > their macs, so they show productivity. Some people care about the > development tools, so they show those. In our case, we care about > accessibility, why not show it, not because we are blind people > looking for concessions or special treatment, but as consumers > spending money on apple products. > > I have read the descriptions of snow leopard, and am pretty sure that > I will buy a copy when it comes out, because the descriptions on > apple's website are compelling enough. Even if accessibility > improvements prove to be minor or non-existent, the improvements in > speed and stability will make it worth the money. So, I don't feel > the need to raise a scandal over the fact that I can't legally listen > to an audio demonstration of VoiceOver 3.0. No problem. > Nevertheless, the fact that people wanting a little taste of future > apple accessibility developments, like the demonstrations that their > sighted counterparts get, are so brusquely talked down and at times > hunted like criminals and reported to the authorities, continues to > elude me. > > This is the view I have of things now. As I stated before, it is > becoming increasingly obvious that it is out-of-step with the common > consensus, so I wonder if someone might not come forward and tell me > why I am wrong. The perspectives and premises we hold in life > profoundly govern the way we carry ourselves in the world. I most > certainly would not want to continue harboring views which cause my > conduct to be excessively abrasive and unpalatable to those around > me. That is why, without sarcasm, I'm asking for a change in > perspective for me and the others who ignorantly continue in this error. > > Best regards > Justin Harford > > On Jul 7, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Scott Howell wrote: > >> >> Oh, no, you as a blind person do not have a right to know anything >> different than anyone else. You are not entitled to know any more than >> your sighted counterpart. WHen Apple releases the information about >> Snow Leopard, you can read and make a decision as to whether or not >> you would want to upgrade, just as anyone else would. Being blind does >> not extend any special entitlements and any violation of the NDA that >> was signed is not only breaking a contract between you and Apple or >> whomever you entered into the agreement with, it also jeopardizes >> future involvement in other projects. Point is you agreed to a >> contract and knowing the terms and conditions of that contract, you >> are legally bound and obligated to comply with the agreement. >> >> >> >> >>> >>> fair enough though we are all blind and have a right to know what >>> will >>> be included in my view >>> >>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 19:11, Alex Jurgensen wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> Red flag, >>>> >>>> We are moving into grey ares. Please keep the posts NDA compliant. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Alex, >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7-Jul-09, at 10:46 AM, Justin Harford wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> It will. >>>>> On Jul 7, 2009, at 10:13 AM, william lomas wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> what I meant to say was I am not sure if voice over itself will >>>>>> ship >>>>>> with voices in italian, greek, arabic, russian polish, etc. or >>>>>> whether >>>>>> we are still locked down to using acapella >>>>>> >>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 18:07, Koumanova Rostislava wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i did not understand this post. >>>>>>> i know that you have to buy the foreign languages. >>>>>>> rk >>>>>>> Il giorno 07/lug/09, alle ore 18:06, william lomas ha scritto: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it says on the site the quickstart is localised in eighteen >>>>>>>> languages >>>>>>>> with nine new ones and with the voices you can hear it in your >>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>> languages >>>>>>>> but i hope that the eighteen or so work with pre-defined foreign >>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 16:51, Simon Cavendish wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> O yes, I entirely agree. They have always acknowledged my >>>>>>>>> posts, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> I'm sure they are trying to do their best in Braille support. I >>>>>>>>> wouldn't be without my Mac now. No regrets switching on my >>>>>>>>> part! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> With best wishes, Simon >>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 16:44, James & Nash wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I hear what you're saying Simon. To Apple's credit, they have >>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>> acknowledged my messages and have offered support where they >>>>>>>>>> can. I >>>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>> like and would continue to use Windows for things but I do >>>>>>>>>> miss >>>>>>>>>> Mac. >>>>>>>>>> That's >>>>>>>>>> why I'm going to purchase a new one. >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Simon Cavendish" <simon.cavend...@googlemail.com> >>>>>>>>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 4:34 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I have been e-mailing Apple accessibility regarding >>>>>>>>>>> providing a >>>>>>>>>>> broader support in refreshable Braille for other languages. I >>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>> hope >>>>>>>>>>> Snow Leopard is going to bring this aspect to those of us who >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> benefit from it. It would certainly accelerate my leaving >>>>>>>>>>> Windows >>>>>>>>>>> behind altogether. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With best wishes >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Simon >>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 11:50, James & Nash wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well on the Snow Leopard page there is a host of different >>>>>>>>>>>> features. >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I >>>>>>>>>>>> think I remember reading that something - it may have been >>>>>>>>>>>> Voice >>>>>>>>>>>> Over - was >>>>>>>>>>>> localized in about 40 different languages. But I'm not sure >>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>> Braille >>>>>>>>>>>> support. However, if you can some way implement BRLTTY or >>>>>>>>>>>> ask >>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>> to do so >>>>>>>>>>>> we may get native foreign language Braille support. I think >>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> Linux >>>>>>>>>>>> based, so this should not be too difficult. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Take care >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> James >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "william lomas" <lomaswill...@googlemail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:39 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is there a complete list of new features? i.e. >>>>>>>>>>>> .do we get new language voices i wonder >>>>>>>>>>>> . new braille support in other alnguages? >>>>>>>>>>>> etc >>>>>>>>>>>> i guess we will not know these details really until the >>>>>>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 11:29, James & Nash wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It sounds like Snow Leopard is an upgrade. Is this the >>>>>>>>>>>>> case? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Fortunately, I >>>>>>>>>>>>> have a copy of 10.5 which I bought last year so if so then >>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> be any problem. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> James >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Scott Howell" <s.how...@verizon.net> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:25 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe so, but it will be worth upgrading and the cost is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>>> unreal, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't make much since to skip this upgrade. There are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond accessibility to upgrade. I can guarantee you that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> $30 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> very small price to pay for the improvements and many of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not have considered or realized. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2009, at 2:47 AM, william lomas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i doubt we get new voices except maybe the ones found in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the i >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going to wait to upgrade i think, what I have now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fine. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UPgrading won't give us for example, access to flash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point in me upgrading since a lot of sites I use, require >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> navigation which adobe have not yet incorporated into the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safari or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other web browsers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 02:53, Jenny Kennedy wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay! I'm very very glad to hear this wonderful news. A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bummed I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have a fancy trackpad. I have heard some of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demos >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gestures just sound so cool and fun. I guess I'll just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> old tech. LOL I hope to get an iPhone in the future and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to wait 'til then to try gestures. Unless my getting a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macbook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happens first. But as this one is still fairly newish >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wait. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know by the time it comes time for me to get a new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macbook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they'll of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come up with many more new and cool things. : smiley : >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't wait 'til SL comes out. I know it's not too far >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sounds so awesome. Am keen to hear any new voices. Have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> liked >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the UK voices. The best thing would be a UK version of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> breths and all. I still think that's uber cool how Alex >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jenny >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/6/09, Scott Howell <s.how...@verizon.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jenny, first only the Aluminum MacBooks contain the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multi- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trackpad unless Apple upgrades the MacBook line- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aluminum >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> models are now referred to as the MacBook Pro line. Yes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fine on your model. The most significant requirement is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Intel processor since the Power PC chips, such as found >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> G4/G5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machines will not be supported by SL. I'd recommend you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2Gb ram, but 1Gb will get the job done. The commands, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issued >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the trackpad are the same commands you can issue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VO. It is another means to interact with the os using >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard to say what the future holds for such a trackpad >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VO. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point is that if you have heard the iPhone demos, you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of how the trackpad could behave and a little >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagination >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you to speculate what Apple could possibly do in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, have no fear and prepare to upgrade, it will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 6, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Jenny Kennedy wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay. So am I to understand that the macbook pro line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that has this fancy mousepad thing? I got my macbook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> April >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of 08 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and it is the little white one. I adore it and have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> waiting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SL to come out. Will SL even work at all on this sort >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macbook? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure the os will work but will VO function if I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fancy mousepad thing? Are there keyboard shortcuts to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doable with the mousepad? Sorry to be so abrupt gotta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> run. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thanks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any answers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best wishes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jenny >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/6/09, Claude Renaud <cldren...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello James, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sunday, July 5, 2009, 12:31:19 PM, you wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JN> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JN> I've been reading the new VO features in Snow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leopard. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where di you read this please ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Claude Renaud >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>> >> >> >> > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
