John, I think in the end you'll find that with either OS or screen reader, some tasks will take more keystrokes than others and dependent upon the task etc. It is an interesting discussion, but to be honest, the familiarity with the OS and screen reader will determine efficiency as well. As I said, regardless, in the end what matters is if you get the job done. That will make all the difference no matter the platform or screen reader. I think some would even argue the efficiency of the command line interface on Linux/Unix. I knew people that could really do a great deal very efficiently with just a shell prompt. :)
On Dec 2, 2009, at 3:02 PM, John G. Heim wrote: > Alright, I will accept Scott's original assertion that you can't entirely > separate screen reader and operating system when judging efficiency. But I > don't think it is really to the point anyway. Freedom Scientific added > hotkeys in places where the operating system is inefficient. For example, > Insert+f11 brings up a list of the system tray icons. So if you need to do > something like change your skype on-line status, you can get there with a > minimum of keystrokes. > > It would be interesting to compare how many keystrokes it takes to do > certain common tasks in voiceover & MacOS vs jaws & windows. I already > posted on googling "wikipedia". Other ideas: > > 1. Send an email message > 2. Connect to a samba share > 3. Create a text file and save it to your desktop > > > To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 12:55 PM > Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac > > >> Hi John, >> >> Just a very quick comment. I don't disagree with the some of the >> criteria that you're using such count of number of keystrokes to >> complete tasks to evaluate screen readers, and that ultimately things >> like the efficiency of operation come into play. However, I'd like to >> point out that a large number of the shortcuts, keystrokes etc, that >> we use for our day-to-day operations with VoiceOver are built into the >> Mac OS X operating system and not specific to VoiceOver. Just for a >> recent example, answers on how to download files by pressing Option- >> Enter is a Mac shortcut. Two of the problem questions we always have >> from potential switchers is where to find a list of all the VoiceOver >> shortcuts and is it possible to write scripts for this screen reader. >> The point is, we all make daily use of a huge number of shortcuts >> built into Mac OS X, both for all Cocoa Compliant apps (such as the >> movement and selection shortcuts), as well as the shortcuts specific >> to particular applications. Furthermore, scripting is also built into >> the operating system -- from basic shell scripting, in terminal, to >> AppleScripts, and even, to make things available to people without >> programming background, Automator actions. So, to a certain extent, >> Scott's statement that other issues of the Mac OS X operating system >> really do come into play in determining how efficiently overall >> someone can work with VoiceOver. Sure, I could teach somebody to read >> only the VoiceOver Getting Started Manual and follow only topics and >> examples covered there and work far less efficiently than I do from >> day to day by exploiting the other efficiencies in the Mac Operating >> system. As you say, ultimately, we all care about the results. >> >> Just my opinions. YMMV >> >> Cheers, >> >> Esther >> >> >> >> John G. Heim wrote: >> >>> No, screen readers can be judged subjectively independent of the OS >>> they are >>> used for. For example, a subjective measurement might be a count of >>> the >>> number of keystrokes it takes to complete certain tasks. Also, >>> consistency >>> can be a subjective measurment. Does the same keystroke move from >>> one input >>> field to the next? And finally, you can get an idea of the >>> percentage of >>> inaccessible controls in operating system applications. In fact, you >>> could >>> even include accessibility of third party applications even if you >>> have to >>> download add-ons to make them accessible. After all, who cares where >>> the >>> accessibility features come from as long as they work? >>> >>> Anyway, I'm not necessarily saying that my opinion is right. But your >>> contention that its impossible to compare jaws and voiceover is >>> incorrect. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Scott Howell" <scottn3...@gmail.com> >>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 5:19 PM >>> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac >>> >>> >>> John, I think that is a very unfair statement. To say that VoiceOver >>> is not >>> up to the standard set by JAWS is inaccurate. That is like comparing >>> windows >>> and the Mac OS. Sure, they both are operating systems, but they are >>> very >>> different and that holds true with VoiceOver as compared to JAWS, >>> Window-Eyes, and any screen reader running on windows or Linux for >>> that >>> matter. They are all screen readers, like windows or SL share some >>> similarities, but VoiceOver and JAWS for windows are very different. >>> Therefore, the supposed standards of JAWS do not apply to VOiceOver >>> and >>> therefore renders your statement inaccurate. >>> On Dec 1, 2009, at 5:10 PM, John G. Heim wrote: >>> >>>> Several years ago, Microsoft began working on improvements to >>>> narrator >>>> that >>>> would make it a realistically usable screen reader. But the National >>>> Federation of the Blind asked them to stop. The reasoning was that if >>>> Microsoft improved narrator, it might drive Freedom Scientific and GW >>>> Micro >>>> out of business. They thought that narrator would never reach the >>>> quality >>>> of >>>> Jaws and window-eyes yet it might still be good enough to drive those >>>> products out of the market. >>>> >>>> Obviously, that decision was somewhat controversial at the time. I >>>> argued >>>> that it made no sense to think that narrator could be at once too >>>> crummy >>>> to >>>> be used and at the same time good enough to drive jFS and GWM out of >>>> business. I didn't anticipate the development of the other free >>>> screen >>>> readers, voiceover, nvda, and orca. But certainly, that's another >>>> point >>>> against the NFB position. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, I don't think I'd like to switch to voiceover or >>>> nvda >>>> full-time. They are not quite up to the standard set by jaws yet. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Lynn Schneider" <canepri...@gmail.com> >>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 10:54 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac >>>> >>>> >>>> I purchased my first Apple computer about three months ago. I will >>>> never >>>> forget the feeling of complete surprise and joy at being able to >>>> just turn >>>> the iMac on and get it talking within minutes. Microsoft is not to >>>> blame >>>> for not having default Windows access out of the box, blind people >>>> are to >>>> blame. As Mark said, thinking outside the box can get you into hot >>>> water. >>>> A few years ago on a blindness-related list, I made the cataclysmic >>>> mistake >>>> of expressing my wish that some day, windows would be accessible >>>> out of >>>> the >>>> box. You would not believe the hate mail I received from tons of >>>> blind >>>> people basically saying that I wanted a free lunch, I was >>>> ungrateful for >>>> all >>>> the hard work and research of the screen reader companies, etc. etc. >>>> Honestly, it was totally shocking to me that I would get such ire for >>>> simply >>>> suggesting that we ought to have access to something our sighted >>>> peers >>>> take >>>> for granted without having to pay thousands of dollars extra. But, >>>> being >>>> on >>>> this list and seeing all the other blind switchers out there, I >>>> feel at >>>> least a tiny bit vindicated, as blind people are starting to see the >>>> benefits of universal access. I really think it is the young blind >>>> people >>>> who are going to demand universal access, at least I hope so. They >>>> are >>>> the >>>> ones who are going to benefit most from being able to buy an iPhone >>>> or >>>> iPod >>>> Touch like their peers and just start using the thing, and they are >>>> hopefully going to demand more of that. With chips being so cheap >>>> now, >>>> there is absolutely no reason why universal access cannot be built >>>> right >>>> into things. The best thing we can all do is to spread the word >>>> far and >>>> wide about what Apple has been able to accomplish with their >>>> products and >>>> make them an example of what can be. >>>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 9:27 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have changed the subject line to more reflect on the discussion at >>>>> hand. If Apple can set aside resources to make their Mac computers >>>>> universally marketed across the board, there is no reason why >>>>> Microsoftshouldn't, (and they definitely have the resources and the >>>>> technical expertise throughout the company) to do so. And if it >>>>> brings the prices down, and Microsoft does, for example, develop a >>>>> mechanism by which Windows can be installed out of the box without >>>>> sighted assistance, companies such as Freedom Scientific would >>>>> then be >>>>> forced to either go with the trend; otherwise, they would lose their >>>>> economic dolars; after all, isn't that what competition for tax >>>>> dollars and marketshare is all about? In my humble opinion, for >>>>> what >>>>> it's worth, the only reason Freedom Scientific survives in the >>>>> market >>>>> is because they have contracted with some state agencies and >>>>> government entities, and we bare the brunt of the expense >>>>> ineirectly. >>>>> I paid less for my car than I have for braille displays costing >>>>> $8000 >>>>> to $12,000 dollars at a time. In Alaska, for example, the biggest >>>>> majority of vision loss occurs in the elderly population and baby >>>>> boomers who are about to reach retirement age. We have no school >>>>> for >>>>> the blind in Alaska; therefore, if parents want to send their blind >>>>> kids off to a residential school, they would have to send them >>>>> Stateside, which costs the state thousands of dollars which they >>>>> could >>>>> probably find other revenues to use elsewhere.There are a handful of >>>>> us who are blind and visually-impaired Macusers, but that numberis >>>>> increasing, as the word about VoiceOver gets out. Richie >>>>> Gardenhire, >>>>> Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that they >>>>> have a guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's >>>>> why >>>>> I will not upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it and >>>>> secondly, I don't want to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, but >>>>> FS knows that they can get away with it because of a guaranteed >>>>> market. I'm not saying things could not change, but simply stating >>>>> that you can't get JAWS or a Braille display from a home >>>>> electronics >>>>> ore software store, and I wouldn't expect to happen any time soon if >>>>> ever. In their eyes, why should They bother as they won't sell >>>>> enough >>>>> of them to make it worth their while. There is a cell phone put >>>>> out >>>>> by Capital Accessibility in Europe. I've seen one and it's no big >>>>> deal. The speech is great, but there is no camera, digital >>>>> screen, or >>>>> anything that might ad a bit of a price to the phone. It's built >>>>> like >>>>> a brick, but it is over $500 and though the speech is clear, it's >>>>> very >>>>> robotic. Tell me that's not ridiculous? I don't know that agencies >>>>> are responsible for this one, but the phone is so tailored to our >>>>> needs that somebody will buy it. Not me. Granted, if more people >>>>> were learning braille and speech software as they were dealing with >>>>> macular degeneration, and there was a big enough demand for it, >>>>> things >>>>> might come down a bit. That's great about the scanner. I'd better >>>>> stop typing now as I am misspelling more things than I am typing >>>>> correctly and am about to throw this keyboard, though it's not at >>>>> fault. >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time >>>>>> again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that has >>>>>> gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted >>>>>> community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended >>>>>> for >>>>>> use by the blind for scanning newspapers, magazines, and othr >>>>>> documents in their computers or reading machines. Back then, you >>>>>> had >>>>>> to pay thousands of dolars for the machine, and ys, state agencies >>>>>> bought it for us, if we were lucky. Now, one can buy a scanner >>>>>> and to >>>>>> a certain extent, software for scanning pictures, text, and other >>>>>> document forms into one's PC, at a fraction of the cost it was in >>>>>> the >>>>>> 1970's. The point here is that it found a marketable niche among >>>>>> the >>>>>> sighted community, and once they were mass-produced, prices started >>>>>> coming down and people could afford said scanners. While braille >>>>>> displays are another issue, there are companies who are working to >>>>>> make even displays more affordable and accepting to the universal >>>>>> design market. In the 1980's, Apple tried an experiment, using an >>>>>> ordinary, dot matrix printer, to produce braille. It wasn't the >>>>>> best >>>>>> quality braille, but it was an experiment that, had it been >>>>>> popular, >>>>>> might have flown. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:50 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you >>>>>> in a >>>>>> sense, but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes off of >>>>>> the shelf? That would be nice? that's one reason I like the Mac >>>>>> and >>>>>> accessories. The people in the Mac and Apple stores will likely >>>>>> not >>>>>> be trained for extensive use with Vo, but they should be able to >>>>>> make >>>>>> sure it works. Try going into a Best Buy >>>>>> and asking them if JFW works. We probably make up less than 10% of >>>>>> the population so it isn't going to happen. It would still be >>>>>> expensive, and that's why I needed the agency to buy it for me. >>>>>> Again >>>>>> don't get me wrong, in a perfect world that might happen, but we >>>>>> all >>>>>> know the world is far from perfect. I'm not trying to defend >>>>>> anybody >>>>>> necessarily, and I don't consider myself dependent because I need >>>>>> assistance from them. I got my own jobs, take care of myself, go >>>>>> where I need to go etc. A good organization helps people become >>>>>> independent. I agree that whenever possible, we should do for >>>>>> ourselves and not be too dependent on anybody, agencies included. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, >>>>>>> being >>>>>>> one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the poor, >>>>>>> and the >>>>>>> disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a different subject >>>>>>> line >>>>>>> from what was originally intended, and I apologize for that, but I >>>>>>> will say one more thing on this, and that is that I'm in favor of >>>>>>> universal design so that blind people can walk into any store and >>>>>>> purchase off-the-shelf software and get it working and we not be >>>>>>> forced to be co-dependent on state agencies to purchase our >>>>>>> stuff. I >>>>>>> guess, in a way, I'm against state agencies for the reasons I >>>>>>> stated >>>>>>> above. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:32 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Mark: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to their >>>>>>> opinion. However, if it weren't for the Commission for the blind >>>>>>> here >>>>>>> in Oregon, there is no way that I could perform the job I was >>>>>>> hired >>>>>>> for. I had to have a programmer write JAWS scripts so that I >>>>>>> could >>>>>>> get to the buttons, read the drop down boxes that just had >>>>>>> graphics >>>>>>> for names, etc. I couldn't have afforded the thousands of dollars >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> has costed. He is working as we speak since the company I work >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> has changed software and everything we had done in the past >>>>>>> regarding >>>>>>> the original software is now null and void. I could have not >>>>>>> afforded >>>>>>> a Braille display at about 12,000 dollars. I can say with >>>>>>> certainty >>>>>>> that there are few if any companies that would provide any of >>>>>>> these >>>>>>> services. Unfortunately many government funded agencies, >>>>>>> including >>>>>>> the Oregon Commission for the blind do know little about Mac >>>>>>> accessibility as they have contracts with certain vendors, and, >>>>>>> face >>>>>>> it,whether we like it or not, a majority of companies still use >>>>>>> Windows based software. My husband and I both decided on our >>>>>>> own to >>>>>>> try the Mac, and though I've had some problems, I'm glad I did. >>>>>>> I've >>>>>>> learned it without an instructor. We nearly lost our Commission >>>>>>> last >>>>>>> summer so when I hear people talking about how we shouldn't have >>>>>>> government agencies such as this, I have to disagree though they >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> have their problems. Yes, some people do rely on others to >>>>>>> much, but >>>>>>> not all of us do. Like you, I grew up in the public school >>>>>>> system in >>>>>>> a rural area. I was born blind also. I'll get off my soap box >>>>>>> now. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was >>>>>>>> raised >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal help from >>>>>>>> state >>>>>>>> agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was 20, again with >>>>>>>> minimal >>>>>>>> if any help from agencies--didn't have my first experience with >>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>> agencies or institutions for the blind until I was 24, when the >>>>>>>> Carroll Center was offering a medical transcription course and I >>>>>>>> needed another, safer place to be. They kicked me out of their >>>>>>>> dorm, >>>>>>>> making me homeless, after six weeks there. Rehab flatly >>>>>>>> refused to >>>>>>>> support me and my music career in any way, and pressured me to >>>>>>>> go to >>>>>>>> the Carroll Center in the first place, then pressured me to get >>>>>>>> therapy and reform my ways when they made me homeless. I only >>>>>>>> started >>>>>>>> cautiously learning how to deal with the agencies in 2007, when >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> became clear that my failing hearing was going to force me out of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> transcription career I'd had for 13+ years. I learned Jaws and >>>>>>>> Windows essentially by myself, as I've always been good with >>>>>>>> tech. >>>>>>>> Even now, while I may have learned a little about how to get >>>>>>>> along >>>>>>>> with the agencies and get what I need, it's a very uneasy truce >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> best./ I hope to be starting a job at another institution for >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> blind soon, but this time as a trainer, not a student, which >>>>>>>> hopefully >>>>>>>> will turn out better. You can see why I advocate for the >>>>>>>> abolition >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> such systems. They do not foster independence of thinking, and >>>>>>>> tend >>>>>>>> to punish outside-the-box people, in my experience. I do realize >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> people blinded later in life may not adapt as fully as those born >>>>>>>> blind; I'm learning that as I lose my hearing, so I have the >>>>>>>> privilege >>>>>>>> of seeing both sides of the coin, but think about what that >>>>>>>> implies-- >>>>>>>> that the pressure on those whose world has already been blasted >>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>> losing their sight will essentially become putty in the hands of >>>>>>>> high- >>>>>>>> pressure agencies who are set in their ways. The system seems to >>>>>>>> punish at both ends--if you're too independent, you're >>>>>>>> pressured to >>>>>>>> conform; if you're new to blindness, you're taught not to think >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> yourself. Hell, I didn't even do mobility orienting stuff until >>>>>>>> last >>>>>>>> year, when Rehab here in CA suggested I ry it, and I decided, >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>> interests of keeping the peace, what the heck; my mobility >>>>>>>> teacher >>>>>>>> quickly realized that there was very little, beyond the immediate >>>>>>>> rehearsing of directions, that she could improve upon what I >>>>>>>> and my >>>>>>>> dog were already going. Since I got Trekker, that's even more >>>>>>>> so; >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> that Trekker is temporarily broken, I truly feel the loss. :) I >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> see how the agencies really have done me any good, other than >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>> purely material realm, and if I weren't as articulate as I am >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> stating my needs, and as forceful as I am about what I need, >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>> most people are not, even that gain might be minimal, and even >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> damage is significant. So, that's where my beef with the >>>>>>>> system(s) >>>>>>>> comes in; sorry if that makes it a personal grudge, but there you >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> then. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mark BurningHawk Baxter >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 >>>>>>>> MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com >>>>>>>> My home page: >>>>>>>> http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" 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