I understand a lot of these are easier if one uses launchbar. Is launchbar working fairly well with Voice Over these days? I know that sighted macintosh hard core users find it almost essential at making their work efficient.
Jon On Dec 2, 2009, at 3:02 PM, John G. Heim wrote: > Alright, I will accept Scott's original assertion that you can't > entirely > separate screen reader and operating system when judging efficiency. > But I > don't think it is really to the point anyway. Freedom Scientific added > hotkeys in places where the operating system is inefficient. For > example, > Insert+f11 brings up a list of the system tray icons. So if you > need to do > something like change your skype on-line status, you can get there > with a > minimum of keystrokes. > > It would be interesting to compare how many keystrokes it takes to do > certain common tasks in voiceover & MacOS vs jaws & windows. I already > posted on googling "wikipedia". Other ideas: > > 1. Send an email message > 2. Connect to a samba share > 3. Create a text file and save it to your desktop > > > To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 12:55 PM > Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac > > >> Hi John, >> >> Just a very quick comment. I don't disagree with the some of the >> criteria that you're using such count of number of keystrokes to >> complete tasks to evaluate screen readers, and that ultimately things >> like the efficiency of operation come into play. However, I'd like >> to >> point out that a large number of the shortcuts, keystrokes etc, that >> we use for our day-to-day operations with VoiceOver are built into >> the >> Mac OS X operating system and not specific to VoiceOver. Just for a >> recent example, answers on how to download files by pressing Option- >> Enter is a Mac shortcut. Two of the problem questions we always have >> from potential switchers is where to find a list of all the VoiceOver >> shortcuts and is it possible to write scripts for this screen reader. >> The point is, we all make daily use of a huge number of shortcuts >> built into Mac OS X, both for all Cocoa Compliant apps (such as the >> movement and selection shortcuts), as well as the shortcuts specific >> to particular applications. Furthermore, scripting is also built >> into >> the operating system -- from basic shell scripting, in terminal, to >> AppleScripts, and even, to make things available to people without >> programming background, Automator actions. So, to a certain extent, >> Scott's statement that other issues of the Mac OS X operating system >> really do come into play in determining how efficiently overall >> someone can work with VoiceOver. Sure, I could teach somebody to >> read >> only the VoiceOver Getting Started Manual and follow only topics and >> examples covered there and work far less efficiently than I do from >> day to day by exploiting the other efficiencies in the Mac Operating >> system. As you say, ultimately, we all care about the results. >> >> Just my opinions. YMMV >> >> Cheers, >> >> Esther >> >> >> >> John G. Heim wrote: >> >>> No, screen readers can be judged subjectively independent of the OS >>> they are >>> used for. For example, a subjective measurement might be a count of >>> the >>> number of keystrokes it takes to complete certain tasks. Also, >>> consistency >>> can be a subjective measurment. Does the same keystroke move from >>> one input >>> field to the next? And finally, you can get an idea of the >>> percentage of >>> inaccessible controls in operating system applications. In fact, you >>> could >>> even include accessibility of third party applications even if you >>> have to >>> download add-ons to make them accessible. After all, who cares where >>> the >>> accessibility features come from as long as they work? >>> >>> Anyway, I'm not necessarily saying that my opinion is right. But >>> your >>> contention that its impossible to compare jaws and voiceover is >>> incorrect. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Scott Howell" <scottn3...@gmail.com> >>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 5:19 PM >>> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac >>> >>> >>> John, I think that is a very unfair statement. To say that VoiceOver >>> is not >>> up to the standard set by JAWS is inaccurate. That is like comparing >>> windows >>> and the Mac OS. Sure, they both are operating systems, but they are >>> very >>> different and that holds true with VoiceOver as compared to JAWS, >>> Window-Eyes, and any screen reader running on windows or Linux for >>> that >>> matter. They are all screen readers, like windows or SL share some >>> similarities, but VoiceOver and JAWS for windows are very different. >>> Therefore, the supposed standards of JAWS do not apply to VOiceOver >>> and >>> therefore renders your statement inaccurate. >>> On Dec 1, 2009, at 5:10 PM, John G. Heim wrote: >>> >>>> Several years ago, Microsoft began working on improvements to >>>> narrator >>>> that >>>> would make it a realistically usable screen reader. But the >>>> National >>>> Federation of the Blind asked them to stop. The reasoning was >>>> that if >>>> Microsoft improved narrator, it might drive Freedom Scientific >>>> and GW >>>> Micro >>>> out of business. They thought that narrator would never reach the >>>> quality >>>> of >>>> Jaws and window-eyes yet it might still be good enough to drive >>>> those >>>> products out of the market. >>>> >>>> Obviously, that decision was somewhat controversial at the time. I >>>> argued >>>> that it made no sense to think that narrator could be at once too >>>> crummy >>>> to >>>> be used and at the same time good enough to drive jFS and GWM out >>>> of >>>> business. I didn't anticipate the development of the other free >>>> screen >>>> readers, voiceover, nvda, and orca. But certainly, that's another >>>> point >>>> against the NFB position. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, I don't think I'd like to switch to voiceover or >>>> nvda >>>> full-time. They are not quite up to the standard set by jaws yet. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Lynn Schneider" <canepri...@gmail.com> >>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 10:54 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac >>>> >>>> >>>> I purchased my first Apple computer about three months ago. I will >>>> never >>>> forget the feeling of complete surprise and joy at being able to >>>> just turn >>>> the iMac on and get it talking within minutes. Microsoft is not to >>>> blame >>>> for not having default Windows access out of the box, blind people >>>> are to >>>> blame. As Mark said, thinking outside the box can get you into hot >>>> water. >>>> A few years ago on a blindness-related list, I made the cataclysmic >>>> mistake >>>> of expressing my wish that some day, windows would be accessible >>>> out of >>>> the >>>> box. You would not believe the hate mail I received from tons of >>>> blind >>>> people basically saying that I wanted a free lunch, I was >>>> ungrateful for >>>> all >>>> the hard work and research of the screen reader companies, etc. >>>> etc. >>>> Honestly, it was totally shocking to me that I would get such ire >>>> for >>>> simply >>>> suggesting that we ought to have access to something our sighted >>>> peers >>>> take >>>> for granted without having to pay thousands of dollars extra. But, >>>> being >>>> on >>>> this list and seeing all the other blind switchers out there, I >>>> feel at >>>> least a tiny bit vindicated, as blind people are starting to see >>>> the >>>> benefits of universal access. I really think it is the young blind >>>> people >>>> who are going to demand universal access, at least I hope so. They >>>> are >>>> the >>>> ones who are going to benefit most from being able to buy an iPhone >>>> or >>>> iPod >>>> Touch like their peers and just start using the thing, and they are >>>> hopefully going to demand more of that. With chips being so cheap >>>> now, >>>> there is absolutely no reason why universal access cannot be built >>>> right >>>> into things. The best thing we can all do is to spread the word >>>> far and >>>> wide about what Apple has been able to accomplish with their >>>> products and >>>> make them an example of what can be. >>>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 9:27 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have changed the subject line to more reflect on the >>>>> discussion at >>>>> hand. If Apple can set aside resources to make their Mac >>>>> computers >>>>> universally marketed across the board, there is no reason why >>>>> Microsoftshouldn't, (and they definitely have the resources and >>>>> the >>>>> technical expertise throughout the company) to do so. And if it >>>>> brings the prices down, and Microsoft does, for example, develop a >>>>> mechanism by which Windows can be installed out of the box without >>>>> sighted assistance, companies such as Freedom Scientific would >>>>> then be >>>>> forced to either go with the trend; otherwise, they would lose >>>>> their >>>>> economic dolars; after all, isn't that what competition for tax >>>>> dollars and marketshare is all about? In my humble opinion, for >>>>> what >>>>> it's worth, the only reason Freedom Scientific survives in the >>>>> market >>>>> is because they have contracted with some state agencies and >>>>> government entities, and we bare the brunt of the expense >>>>> ineirectly. >>>>> I paid less for my car than I have for braille displays costing >>>>> $8000 >>>>> to $12,000 dollars at a time. In Alaska, for example, the biggest >>>>> majority of vision loss occurs in the elderly population and baby >>>>> boomers who are about to reach retirement age. We have no school >>>>> for >>>>> the blind in Alaska; therefore, if parents want to send their >>>>> blind >>>>> kids off to a residential school, they would have to send them >>>>> Stateside, which costs the state thousands of dollars which they >>>>> could >>>>> probably find other revenues to use elsewhere.There are a >>>>> handful of >>>>> us who are blind and visually-impaired Macusers, but that numberis >>>>> increasing, as the word about VoiceOver gets out. Richie >>>>> Gardenhire, >>>>> Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that >>>>> they >>>>> have a guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's >>>>> why >>>>> I will not upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it and >>>>> secondly, I don't want to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, >>>>> but >>>>> FS knows that they can get away with it because of a guaranteed >>>>> market. I'm not saying things could not change, but simply >>>>> stating >>>>> that you can't get JAWS or a Braille display from a home >>>>> electronics >>>>> ore software store, and I wouldn't expect to happen any time >>>>> soon if >>>>> ever. In their eyes, why should They bother as they won't sell >>>>> enough >>>>> of them to make it worth their while. There is a cell phone put >>>>> out >>>>> by Capital Accessibility in Europe. I've seen one and it's no big >>>>> deal. The speech is great, but there is no camera, digital >>>>> screen, or >>>>> anything that might ad a bit of a price to the phone. It's built >>>>> like >>>>> a brick, but it is over $500 and though the speech is clear, it's >>>>> very >>>>> robotic. Tell me that's not ridiculous? I don't know that >>>>> agencies >>>>> are responsible for this one, but the phone is so tailored to our >>>>> needs that somebody will buy it. Not me. Granted, if more people >>>>> were learning braille and speech software as they were dealing >>>>> with >>>>> macular degeneration, and there was a big enough demand for it, >>>>> things >>>>> might come down a bit. That's great about the scanner. I'd >>>>> better >>>>> stop typing now as I am misspelling more things than I am typing >>>>> correctly and am about to throw this keyboard, though it's not at >>>>> fault. >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time >>>>>> again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that >>>>>> has >>>>>> gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted >>>>>> community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended >>>>>> for >>>>>> use by the blind for scanning newspapers, magazines, and othr >>>>>> documents in their computers or reading machines. Back then, you >>>>>> had >>>>>> to pay thousands of dolars for the machine, and ys, state >>>>>> agencies >>>>>> bought it for us, if we were lucky. Now, one can buy a scanner >>>>>> and to >>>>>> a certain extent, software for scanning pictures, text, and other >>>>>> document forms into one's PC, at a fraction of the cost it was in >>>>>> the >>>>>> 1970's. The point here is that it found a marketable niche among >>>>>> the >>>>>> sighted community, and once they were mass-produced, prices >>>>>> started >>>>>> coming down and people could afford said scanners. While braille >>>>>> displays are another issue, there are companies who are working >>>>>> to >>>>>> make even displays more affordable and accepting to the universal >>>>>> design market. In the 1980's, Apple tried an experiment, using >>>>>> an >>>>>> ordinary, dot matrix printer, to produce braille. It wasn't the >>>>>> best >>>>>> quality braille, but it was an experiment that, had it been >>>>>> popular, >>>>>> might have flown. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:50 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you >>>>>> in a >>>>>> sense, but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes >>>>>> off of >>>>>> the shelf? That would be nice? that's one reason I like the Mac >>>>>> and >>>>>> accessories. The people in the Mac and Apple stores will likely >>>>>> not >>>>>> be trained for extensive use with Vo, but they should be able to >>>>>> make >>>>>> sure it works. Try going into a Best Buy >>>>>> and asking them if JFW works. We probably make up less than >>>>>> 10% of >>>>>> the population so it isn't going to happen. It would still be >>>>>> expensive, and that's why I needed the agency to buy it for me. >>>>>> Again >>>>>> don't get me wrong, in a perfect world that might happen, but we >>>>>> all >>>>>> know the world is far from perfect. I'm not trying to defend >>>>>> anybody >>>>>> necessarily, and I don't consider myself dependent because I need >>>>>> assistance from them. I got my own jobs, take care of myself, go >>>>>> where I need to go etc. A good organization helps people become >>>>>> independent. I agree that whenever possible, we should do for >>>>>> ourselves and not be too dependent on anybody, agencies included. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, >>>>>>> being >>>>>>> one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the poor, >>>>>>> and the >>>>>>> disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a different subject >>>>>>> line >>>>>>> from what was originally intended, and I apologize for that, >>>>>>> but I >>>>>>> will say one more thing on this, and that is that I'm in favor >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> universal design so that blind people can walk into any store >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> purchase off-the-shelf software and get it working and we not be >>>>>>> forced to be co-dependent on state agencies to purchase our >>>>>>> stuff. I >>>>>>> guess, in a way, I'm against state agencies for the reasons I >>>>>>> stated >>>>>>> above. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:32 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Mark: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> opinion. However, if it weren't for the Commission for the >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> here >>>>>>> in Oregon, there is no way that I could perform the job I was >>>>>>> hired >>>>>>> for. I had to have a programmer write JAWS scripts so that I >>>>>>> could >>>>>>> get to the buttons, read the drop down boxes that just had >>>>>>> graphics >>>>>>> for names, etc. I couldn't have afforded the thousands of >>>>>>> dollars >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> has costed. He is working as we speak since the company I work >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> has changed software and everything we had done in the past >>>>>>> regarding >>>>>>> the original software is now null and void. I could have not >>>>>>> afforded >>>>>>> a Braille display at about 12,000 dollars. I can say with >>>>>>> certainty >>>>>>> that there are few if any companies that would provide any of >>>>>>> these >>>>>>> services. Unfortunately many government funded agencies, >>>>>>> including >>>>>>> the Oregon Commission for the blind do know little about Mac >>>>>>> accessibility as they have contracts with certain vendors, and, >>>>>>> face >>>>>>> it,whether we like it or not, a majority of companies still use >>>>>>> Windows based software. My husband and I both decided on our >>>>>>> own to >>>>>>> try the Mac, and though I've had some problems, I'm glad I did. >>>>>>> I've >>>>>>> learned it without an instructor. We nearly lost our Commission >>>>>>> last >>>>>>> summer so when I hear people talking about how we shouldn't have >>>>>>> government agencies such as this, I have to disagree though they >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> have their problems. Yes, some people do rely on others to >>>>>>> much, but >>>>>>> not all of us do. Like you, I grew up in the public school >>>>>>> system in >>>>>>> a rural area. I was born blind also. I'll get off my soap box >>>>>>> now. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was >>>>>>>> raised >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal help from >>>>>>>> state >>>>>>>> agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was 20, again with >>>>>>>> minimal >>>>>>>> if any help from agencies--didn't have my first experience with >>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>> agencies or institutions for the blind until I was 24, when the >>>>>>>> Carroll Center was offering a medical transcription course >>>>>>>> and I >>>>>>>> needed another, safer place to be. They kicked me out of their >>>>>>>> dorm, >>>>>>>> making me homeless, after six weeks there. Rehab flatly >>>>>>>> refused to >>>>>>>> support me and my music career in any way, and pressured me to >>>>>>>> go to >>>>>>>> the Carroll Center in the first place, then pressured me to get >>>>>>>> therapy and reform my ways when they made me homeless. I only >>>>>>>> started >>>>>>>> cautiously learning how to deal with the agencies in 2007, when >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> became clear that my failing hearing was going to force me >>>>>>>> out of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> transcription career I'd had for 13+ years. I learned Jaws and >>>>>>>> Windows essentially by myself, as I've always been good with >>>>>>>> tech. >>>>>>>> Even now, while I may have learned a little about how to get >>>>>>>> along >>>>>>>> with the agencies and get what I need, it's a very uneasy truce >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> best./ I hope to be starting a job at another institution for >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> blind soon, but this time as a trainer, not a student, which >>>>>>>> hopefully >>>>>>>> will turn out better. You can see why I advocate for the >>>>>>>> abolition >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> such systems. They do not foster independence of thinking, and >>>>>>>> tend >>>>>>>> to punish outside-the-box people, in my experience. I do >>>>>>>> realize >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> people blinded later in life may not adapt as fully as those >>>>>>>> born >>>>>>>> blind; I'm learning that as I lose my hearing, so I have the >>>>>>>> privilege >>>>>>>> of seeing both sides of the coin, but think about what that >>>>>>>> implies-- >>>>>>>> that the pressure on those whose world has already been blasted >>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>> losing their sight will essentially become putty in the hands >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> high- >>>>>>>> pressure agencies who are set in their ways. The system >>>>>>>> seems to >>>>>>>> punish at both ends--if you're too independent, you're >>>>>>>> pressured to >>>>>>>> conform; if you're new to blindness, you're taught not to think >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> yourself. Hell, I didn't even do mobility orienting stuff >>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>> last >>>>>>>> year, when Rehab here in CA suggested I ry it, and I decided, >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>> interests of keeping the peace, what the heck; my mobility >>>>>>>> teacher >>>>>>>> quickly realized that there was very little, beyond the >>>>>>>> immediate >>>>>>>> rehearsing of directions, that she could improve upon what I >>>>>>>> and my >>>>>>>> dog were already going. Since I got Trekker, that's even more >>>>>>>> so; >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> that Trekker is temporarily broken, I truly feel the >>>>>>>> loss. :) I >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> see how the agencies really have done me any good, other than >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>> purely material realm, and if I weren't as articulate as I am >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> stating my needs, and as forceful as I am about what I need, >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>> most people are not, even that gain might be minimal, and even >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> damage is significant. So, that's where my beef with the >>>>>>>> system(s) >>>>>>>> comes in; sorry if that makes it a personal grudge, but there >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> then. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mark BurningHawk Baxter >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 >>>>>>>> MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com >>>>>>>> My home page: >>>>>>>> http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>> Google >>>>>>> Groups 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