Okay, I went to Wifi with my Voiceover curser and then used VO + command + [f5] and then held option while I pressed my Track pad….This worked.
Thx, Jeff > On Apr 11, 2017, at 3:04 PM, E.T. <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote: > > Hmmm, it must have been a fluke for I cannot do it now. Do you have a > mouse? If so you can option click on Wifi. > > From E.T.'s Keyboard. . . > "God for you is where you sweep away all the > mysteries of the world, all the challenges to > our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off > and say God did it." --Carl Sagan > E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com > > On 4/11/2017 11:50 AM, Jeff Berwick wrote: >> When I hold it a bit longer, I hear “Cancel WIFI” when I release the keys. >> Jeff >> >>> On Apr 11, 2017, at 2:44 PM, E.T. <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote: >>> >>> Jeff, >>> Activate Wifi as usual with VO-Space but hold it a bit longer than usual. >>> You will get the extended information. >>> >>> From E.T.'s Keyboard. . . >>> "God for you is where you sweep away all the >>> mysteries of the world, all the challenges to >>> our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off >>> and say God did it." --Carl Sagan >>> E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com >>> >>> On 4/11/2017 10:46 AM, Jeff Berwick wrote: >>>> Is there another way to get this information? It seems I need to use my >>>> VO curser to move across the extras menu—although I remember it didn’t >>>> always used to be this way. >>>> >>>> At any rate, I can’t make your keystroke work. :-( >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>>> On Apr 11, 2017, at 10:22 AM, Scott Granados <scott.grana...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Great question, on your Mac if you’re using a Mac press vo m twice and >>>>> highlight your WiFi settings, then arrow once left to the object left of >>>>> WiFi and hold down the option key (one left of command) and arrow right >>>>> to WiFi. Holding down option while opening WiFi yields a lot more >>>>> information about your connection. As you arrow down instead of just >>>>> hearing turn off WiFi and the list of the networks near by you’ll now >>>>> have more fields including your IP address, the channel you’re on, the >>>>> noise level, the signal level and the protocol you’re using as well as >>>>> the negotiated speed. Use this or the equivalent on Windows to determine >>>>> your current status. >>>>> >>>>> When you have separate names for SSIDs on both bands you have manual >>>>> control. You can join one or the other which is fine but if you use all >>>>> the same SSID and your router supports it you will use band steering. >>>>> This means you will use the best band for the conditions at the time. >>>>> Your interface card and router will select the best bands for you to use >>>>> typically when you connect. This also has benefits in the Apple world >>>>> allowing your watch to join WiFi because the watch supports 2.4 ghz only >>>>> and derives the network to connect to from your phone. If your phone is >>>>> connected to a 5GHz SSID only your watch will not connect. If everything >>>>> is the same name the watch will connect just fine but again this is but a >>>>> side benefit. The main advantage is you’ll select the best band for the >>>>> conditions. >>>>> >>>>> Hope that helps. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 11, 2017, at 10:06 AM, Jeff Berwick <mailingli...@berwick.name> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> This thread is very fascinating and mostly over my head, but I have done >>>>>> as you suggested and changed the name of my 5GHZ band to be the same as >>>>>> my 2.4GHZ. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, if you don’t mind answering what may be a dumb question, how do I >>>>>> now know whether I’m connecting to the 5 or the 2.4 band? Is there a >>>>>> way to prefer one over the other? Will it automatically try the 5GHZ >>>>>> first or just default to the stronger/clear band/channel? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thx, >>>>>> Jeff >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 11, 2017, at 9:12 AM, Scott Granados <scott.grana...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK a few things that are incorrect here but it might just be a >>>>>>> difference in terminology. So Incorrect may be a bit strong. It’s >>>>>>> probably the guy on this side of the keyboard.:) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PSK or pre shared key s plenty secure assuming you have a good key. >>>>>>> Your only option is to use a radius server and do WPA2 enterprise but >>>>>>> then you’re still using passwords so same limitation has to be a good >>>>>>> password. >>>>>>> I’m absolutely certain your neighbor broke in to your network >>>>>>> using WiFi protected setup or WPS which is a different animal as you >>>>>>> know. Why someone would use a numeric pin over a long pass phrase >>>>>>> baffles me because it’s far easier to guess. If you know the valid >>>>>>> characters are in the range 0 to 9 instead of containing the whole >>>>>>> alphabet, all the punctuation and so forth you can see how much this >>>>>>> improves your odds of cracking. I’ve broken networks in under 30 >>>>>>> seconds using this method assuming of course how quickly you guess the >>>>>>> pin. Turn that feature off and use the AES encryption and I’m >>>>>>> effectively locked out assuming I can’t guess your pass phrase. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WPA verses WPA2. Here’s the difference, WPA uses TKIP cryptography. >>>>>>> This is ok but has been found not to be as robust as it should. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WPA2 uses AES encryption. AES is a European standard that’s very >>>>>>> effective and uses all sorts of cool grouping and modulus tricks to >>>>>>> Harden the connection. This is the way to go. It performs best, is the >>>>>>> hardest to crack and uses the most bits in key and group generation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Next, let’s talk channels. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (Eric, I’m being deliberately over detailed so folks not as skilled as >>>>>>> your self can follow along, if I’m telling you stuff you know please be >>>>>>> patient) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are three primary bands used for WiFi, they vary a little country >>>>>>> to country but not significantly. The bands are 2.4 ghz, and two >>>>>>> segments of the 5.0 ghz band. There’s some 5.8 ghz out there but this >>>>>>> is quite new and yes there’s stuff up over 20 ghz but we’ll leave AD >>>>>>> networking out of this for now to not over complicate. >>>>>>> On the 2.4 ghz band in most countries there are 11 channels, in >>>>>>> some there are 13 but let’s go with 11 for this discussion. The >>>>>>> channels overlap so you have to be very careful what to pick. Channels >>>>>>> need at least 5 for separation so for example. Channels 1 and 6 do not >>>>>>> overlap, channels 1 and 3 do. So if you have a radio on 1 and one on 3 >>>>>>> you’ll have collisions between the spectrum. The channels usually used >>>>>>> for this reason are 1, 6 and 11. This means if you’re on channel 9 >>>>>>> you’re colliding with channels 6 and 11. If we look at the signal we >>>>>>> see that the bandwidth is 40 mhz under normal operation. Now if we >>>>>>> have 20/40 mhz coexistence mode enabled which is usually the default >>>>>>> this number will shrink to 20 MHz if another signal is received >>>>>>> adjacent to your channel. So, pick an empty channel but be mindful of >>>>>>> what you’re overlapping with. Also, this band is the most congested. >>>>>>> You’re contending with everything from garage door openers to microwave >>>>>>> ovens with bad seals. Cordless phones live up here and all sorts of >>>>>>> baby monitors and things. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The 5 GHz band is your best option if you have it available. Most >>>>>>> modern routers do as do most interface cards. This band is broken in >>>>>>> to sections, you have the lower band at channels 36, 40, 44 and 48 and >>>>>>> then the upper band at channels 149, 153, 157 and 161. You also have >>>>>>> the DFS band which includes 132 and several others. DFS is also used >>>>>>> by military and other RADAR so you may select a DFS channel but if >>>>>>> interference is picked up you’ll select a new one. Not all gear >>>>>>> supports DFS and likely different countries handle this differently. >>>>>>> Also, the first 20 MHz of the 5 ghz unlicensed frequency is dedicated >>>>>>> to US cellular operators for LTE unlicensed, other countries will vary. >>>>>>> On 5 GHZ you have 80 MHz of bandwidth so your effective >>>>>>> throughput is faster. Also, with the way the channels are deployed you >>>>>>> have more spectrum so you’re not dealing with the overlapping problem. >>>>>>> You can be on channel 149 and have a radio on 153 and you’ll be ok in >>>>>>> this instance. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So bottom lining it, if you can, use 5 GHz. It carries differently >>>>>>> than 2.4 and interacts more with things like walls and bricks but if >>>>>>> you’re in a good setting the lack of congestion and more spectrum work >>>>>>> in your favor. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So in my example, the optimal setup is as follows. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Set WPA2 for security, reduce the key interval from 3600 to 900 >>>>>>> seconds, have a nice healthy long key, disable WPS, use the same SSID >>>>>>> on 2.4 and 5 GHZ so you can take advantage of band steering and pick >>>>>>> your low band channels wisely. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The automatic selection on routers is better on some than others. Some >>>>>>> reselect through out the day, others pick once and stick with a channel >>>>>>> and still others just randomly select. On the low band most routers >>>>>>> default to channel 6 so avoid 6 if possible or use it in Eric’s case >>>>>>> where you’ve audited the spectrum and know it’s available manually. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 11, 2017, at 1:40 AM, Eric Oyen <eric.o...@icloud.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> well, >>>>>>>> there are other access points around the neighborhood, although none >>>>>>>> of them are within close range (signal strengths less than 30%) and >>>>>>>> mine is only a single device in the house. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, most ordinary users are appliance users, which means their >>>>>>>> knowledge will not be sufficient enough to determine this. The one who >>>>>>>> was sharing via my connection was more than just an appliance user, so >>>>>>>> making the SSID invisible to him wouldn't work. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> btw, I did a channel audit here and the channel I am using is pretty >>>>>>>> clear all around me. most folks seem to default to either 1 or 9. I am >>>>>>>> using 6 right now. I will break out the other machine and do another >>>>>>>> audit this next month and see if I need to change things here. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> btw, I was using WPA-PSK when my network was compromised. I have since >>>>>>>> switched to WPA2-TKIP-AES, turned off the PIN and changed the >>>>>>>> passphrase to something a lot more complex. As far as I am concerned, >>>>>>>> anything with a -PSK is just too easy to crack (I know, Reaver can >>>>>>>> crack it in under 10 minutes). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> anyway, I might decide to reinitialize WPS and keep the network >>>>>>>> congestion around here to a minimum. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -eric >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2017, at 8:05 PM, Scott Granados wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That’s not my point though. My point is even with out putting in >>>>>>>>> your particulars I can still pull that information out of the air >>>>>>>>> with out having to enter anything. The SSID is also used for >>>>>>>>> avoiding interference. The networks are really indicated with their >>>>>>>>> MAC addresses so your access point broadcasts it’s MAC address as >>>>>>>>> part of the packet. That’s present no matter what. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I guess what I’m saying is not broadcasting the SSID has no security >>>>>>>>> value at all and has the effect of causing additional congestion. >>>>>>>>> Unless of course you’re out in a rural area with very few networks. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Over all, turn of that WPS if it’s enabled, the Mac filtering is a >>>>>>>>> good policy but turn that SSID back on so you and your neighbor’s >>>>>>>>> routers play nice. With the changes I suggest and if you’re using >>>>>>>>> WPA2PSK with a good key you’ll be very secure. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2017, at 10:56 PM, Eric Oyen <eric.o...@icloud.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> well, when I turned off SSID broadcast, it was a little harder to >>>>>>>>>> get new devices to connect. basically, it takes inputting the SSID >>>>>>>>>> and other particulars manually. once connected, there is no trouble. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -eric >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2017, at 3:54 PM, E.T. wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Interesting discussion. Much food for thought. I will study the VPN >>>>>>>>>>> site you suggested. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> One thing you mentioned to Jonathan was that you disabled SSID in >>>>>>>>>>> your router. How does that affect your Wifi network. Can your >>>>>>>>>>> devices still see the network? I certainly would not mind hiding >>>>>>>>>>> from the neighbors. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard. . . >>>>>>>>>>> "God for you is where you sweep away all the >>>>>>>>>>> mysteries of the world, all the challenges to >>>>>>>>>>> our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off >>>>>>>>>>> and say God did it." --Carl Sagan >>>>>>>>>>> E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 4/9/2017 1:35 PM, Eric Oyen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> not a problem. there are other reasons to use a VPN. However, 2 >>>>>>>>>>>> things I >>>>>>>>>>>> do when using google: >>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I am not signed in >>>>>>>>>>>> 2. I always use a VPN when searching. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Also, of late, I have been having some trust issues with my >>>>>>>>>>>> current ISP. >>>>>>>>>>>> It seems that they sent me a notice of copyright infringement >>>>>>>>>>>> about a >>>>>>>>>>>> shared file. only problem, I was not sharing anything. So, I had >>>>>>>>>>>> to do a >>>>>>>>>>>> full blown security audit of my machines and network. I did, >>>>>>>>>>>> eventually, >>>>>>>>>>>> found where the issue was (the Lingsys router I have here had a >>>>>>>>>>>> security >>>>>>>>>>>> vulnerability that couldn't be easily closed. As a result, one of >>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>> neighbors was using it to share files. so, even though I had the >>>>>>>>>>>> thing >>>>>>>>>>>> password protected, it was still using a number of items that made >>>>>>>>>>>> breaking the password trivially easy with the right software. I >>>>>>>>>>>> finally >>>>>>>>>>>> managed to get a handle on the situation by turning off the PIN the >>>>>>>>>>>> device had, turning off SSID broadcast and engaging MAC filtering. >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> still can't completely trust the device, so I use a VPN pretty >>>>>>>>>>>> much all >>>>>>>>>>>> the time now. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am looking to upgrade the hardware though. A kit from >>>>>>>>>>>> Routerboard that >>>>>>>>>>>> I can install an image of OpenBSD on would make things a lot better >>>>>>>>>>>> here. THere are optional add-ons like WiFi B/G/A/N, a bridged set >>>>>>>>>>>> of LAN >>>>>>>>>>>> ports, an all weather housing, etc. Once that is done and >>>>>>>>>>>> installed, I >>>>>>>>>>>> can install the VPN package for OpenBSD on there, set it up to >>>>>>>>>>>> handle >>>>>>>>>>>> that and not worry too much. Then, if I want to be ultra secure, I >>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> continue to use a VPN tunnel from my machine, thus doubling the >>>>>>>>>>>> protection. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Now, as to why I would want to use a VPN for other than just >>>>>>>>>>>> security? >>>>>>>>>>>> It's simple. there are some programs hosted on the web that might >>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> regionally restricted (like sports events). So, I would want to be >>>>>>>>>>>> able >>>>>>>>>>>> to listen legally and not be caught up in a blackout zone. Thus, >>>>>>>>>>>> VPN >>>>>>>>>>>> allows me to place my end point elsewhere (like NYC, Sanfransisco, >>>>>>>>>>>> Detroit, Dallas, or even a foreign country). A VPN also gets >>>>>>>>>>>> around what >>>>>>>>>>>> my ISP does when I am viewing something like Hulu or Netflix (they >>>>>>>>>>>> try >>>>>>>>>>>> to lower the QoS for video streaming on content that directly >>>>>>>>>>>> competes >>>>>>>>>>>> with their cable programming). With a VPN, they can't see the >>>>>>>>>>>> type of >>>>>>>>>>>> traffic, so they can't change its priority. They have yet to start >>>>>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>>>>>> so on encrypted tunnels. Besides, I am paying for a specific level >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> service and I hate it when the ISP decides that my traffic needs >>>>>>>>>>>> to be >>>>>>>>>>>> shaped. I don't have video here, so I expect full service. btw, I >>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>> already filed a number of complaints over this issue with both the >>>>>>>>>>>> FCC >>>>>>>>>>>> and the FTC. each time, my service gets maxed out for a few months >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> then they start the games again. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Now, I am paying for 50 megabit/second service here and when the >>>>>>>>>>>> VPN is >>>>>>>>>>>> active, I can still get 40 through. Thats not bad, all things >>>>>>>>>>>> considered. Since I started using the VPN a year ago, the bandwidth >>>>>>>>>>>> shaping games have pretty much stopped. However, lately, I have >>>>>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>>>>> catching RST packets being sent from 2 hops upstream from me. That >>>>>>>>>>>> causes the VPN to drop and I have to reconnect. looks like its >>>>>>>>>>>> time to >>>>>>>>>>>> complain again. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> anyway, thats a lot of how and why I use one. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is it more secure? yes. >>>>>>>>>>>> is it absolutely secure? not a chance! A very determined hacker >>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>> still be able to break it, but its enormously more difficult. >>>>>>>>>>>> He'll just >>>>>>>>>>>> simply move on to an easier target. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -eric >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2017, at 9:55 AM, Jonathan Cohn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Eric, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want to correct one thing. The elimination of the ISP can't >>>>>>>>>>>>> collect traffic rule here in the US essentially does not change >>>>>>>>>>>>> anything. Congress can not actually shutdown entire rules without >>>>>>>>>>>>> Agency changes unless they are brand new rules. The privacy rules >>>>>>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe supposed to go into effect in June, and don't forget >>>>>>>>>>>>> even if >>>>>>>>>>>>> those rules had gone into effect Google would still be collecting >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> selling your data. In fact, be wary of any free or very >>>>>>>>>>>>> inexpensive >>>>>>>>>>>>> internet based service, software does not just get created out of >>>>>>>>>>>>> thin >>>>>>>>>>>>> air, companies pay good money for developers, and disk space costs >>>>>>>>>>>>> something too. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact one reason, congress did not like the new FCC rules was >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> they only provided a that no equivalent protections of privacy >>>>>>>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>>>>>> be leveraged by the FCC over search engines, since the FCC only >>>>>>>>>>>>> regulates the pipes and the FTC would regulate other internet >>>>>>>>>>>>> services. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Please forgive any specific inaccuracies in this post, I am going >>>>>>>>>>>>> off >>>>>>>>>>>>> of materials I read in tidbits.com <http://tidbits.com/> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> severalpodcasts that I listened to over a week ago. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Best wishes, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2017, at 12:31 PM, Eric Oyen <eric.o...@icloud.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:eric.o...@icloud.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> well, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending on whether you use a free or paid service will make a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference in both service quality and setup. I use a paid >>>>>>>>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself. It's $7 a month and is fairly reliable. I have tried some >>>>>>>>>>>>>> free services, but they are mostly hit and miss and are not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> always as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> secure. the service I use is located here: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.privateinternetaccess.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.privateinternetaccess.com/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and they have both client software or you can setup manually. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, their cliente for the mac is not accessible, so I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manual setup in the preferences pane. It works reasonably >>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have also done the manual setup in windows 7. This has allowed >>>>>>>>>>>>>> me to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be able to have dropbox and a few other services when I am >>>>>>>>>>>>>> behind a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> firewall (like over at Voc rehab) THeir IT folks have gotten on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case more than once, until I pointed out to them that their own >>>>>>>>>>>>>> policy does not forbid the use of a vpn (it does, however, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> forbid the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> use of sharing services that are unprotected on their networks). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> even had one of them try to break into my machine (at my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> request) and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they found it well nigh impossible. I had the firewall on that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> win 7 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> box setup so that only traffic on the VPN was allowed in or out >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything else got dropped. That took a lot of heavy >>>>>>>>>>>>>> customization >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on my part to make it work. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> so, if you want to run a VPN, which these days is pretty much >>>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be a must now that ISP's aren't required to keep your info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> private, it is highly recommended.. btw, a lot of the free vpn >>>>>>>>>>>>>> services are not all that bandwidth friendly. thats why I use the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> service I do. they can support up to 20 Mbits/sec. for what I do, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> thats a must have. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -eric >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2017, at 9:17 AM, E.T. wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The recent discussion about VPN got me interested but I was not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ready to look into it at the time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know the setup is done in Network prefs but where does one get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information on VPN servers etc.? Thanks. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard. . . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "God for you is where you sweep away all the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mysteries of the world, all the challenges to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and say God did it." --Carl Sagan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:ancient.ali...@icloud.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> please >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list itself. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. 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You can reach >>>>>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>>>>> at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is >>>>>>>>>>>> Cara >>>>>>>>>>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>>>>>>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please >>>>>>>>>>> contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on >>>>>>>>>>> the list itself. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach >>>>>>>>>>> mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner >>>>>>>>>>> is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>>>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>>>>>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please >>>>>>>>>> contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the >>>>>>>>>> list itself. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach >>>>>>>>>> mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner >>>>>>>>>> is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach >>>>>>>>> mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is >>>>>>>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach >>>>>>>> mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is >>>>>>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark >>>>>>> at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara >>>>>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or >>>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark >>>>>> at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara >>>>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>> >>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or >>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>> >>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark >>>>> at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara >>>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>> >>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>> Visionaries list. >>> >>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if >>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners >>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>> >>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: >>> macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara Quinn - >>> you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>> >>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries > list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or > moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: > macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara Quinn - you > can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ > --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
