Simon, I’m speaking as a US user here so it may be different in your area, David may know what’s available but the content available on Fire TV is better for starters. (Same with fire stick). I like the Amazon prime content better. THere’s lot of original programming that’s not available in other places. I also find the device faster and more responsive, the audio is better, the video is far better at full 4K and the accessibility seems better at this stage because Apple has lost control of things a bit by farming app development back out to end companies.
> On Apr 24, 2017, at 10:12 PM, Simon Fogarty <si...@blinky-net.com> wrote: > > SO these fire tv have good accessibility for screen reader users? > > Why would I want a fire tv over an apple tv if I was making a choice? > > I didn't find the chrome cast 2 much of a benefit and my apple tv works great > for me other than the lack of usefull apps. > > I'd like sonos available on my apple tv but it's not. > -----Original Message----- > From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados > Sent: Tuesday, 25 April 2017 2:49 AM > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: And here's an example of why Apple is losing the digital > assistant game > > The Fire TV has a better remote, better WiFi interface, faster processor, and > a lot more snap to the interface from a user of TTS perspective. I’m also > not sure if the stick provides 4K video, the Fire TV does. Both are good > products don’t get me wrong I’m just a bigger fan of the Fire TV itself and > use it more. > Yes, Netflix and Hulu and the others have very good accessibility now > including the sign in process. The registering with providers for content > like CBS and such is also more accessible on the Fire TV than Apple TV > lately. I think the cost between Fire TV and Apple TV is comparable, about > twice the stick. > > Devices aside on the amazon side, I think the content on Amazon is far better > than Apple. Sure you have iTunes on the Apple and can buy a lot of good > content but that prime subscription sure includes a lot of top shelf stuff. > Amazon also has a clever way of releasing pilots and new content. What would > have been ideal is if Amazon had made an app for Apple TV to stream prime > content but we know the politics there. As far as I know that’s not likely > but this may have changed I’m not sure. I like the button style of the > amazon remote better than the Apple touch remote as well but that’s a > personal preference thing, others probably disagree with me. > > > > >> On Apr 24, 2017, at 10:21 AM, Mary Otten <motte...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi Scott, >> I don't see the use case for a blind person with a Fire TV versus the stick. >> I have a stick, the newer generation. It seems quite responsive. Admittedly, >> I don't have the Fire TV to compare it with. But I just don't see the point, >> unless money is no object and you don't mind spending more. Also, it's worth >> noting with respect to the stick and the AppleTV, that the problem both >> devices have is with third-party apps not being accessible. There are still >> bunches of those that are not accessible with a stick, just as there are on >> the Apple TV apps that are not accessible. When Apple change the format and >> went to apps, it seems to me they lost control over their excess ability. So >> now it's up to the app developers, and many of them screw up. Speaking of >> excess ability, has the Netflix sign in process finally become accessible on >> the fire tv or stick? I know when I signed in with mine, I had to have help >> from a sighted person. Not so with the Apple TV. >> Of course, I'm sure that is on Netflix and, not Amazons. But it does >> illustrate the problem. We are so dependent on third-party apps with regard >> to whether these devices are really useful and accessible or not. >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 24, 2017, at 6:55 AM, Scott Granados <scott.grana...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> You would want a Fire TV in my opinion, not a fire stick. The stick is a >>> bit less powered and while a good product the Fire TV is a very very good >>> product. Accessibility has been continuously improved and the access to >>> prime video content is fantastic. The stick has a slower processor, less >>> memory and is a bit different design. >>> The Apple TV to me is a let down, yet another thing Apple is failing at >>> but more specifically when it comes to accessibility. The product is OK >>> but it’s getting less and less accessible as time passes. >>> >>>> On Apr 24, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Jessica Moss <junglebookfa...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Oh cool, how exactly does the firestick differ from the Apple Tv, other >>>> than it’s way less moneywise, and is a USB stick? >>>>> On Apr 24, 2017, at 12:02 AM, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Yes, these devices have parental control settings. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>>>> Mobile: +61 488 988 936 >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On 24/04/2017, at 10:42, Jessica Moss <junglebookfa...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Ok, probably a stupid question, but is there a way with those, to filter >>>>>> out what content you don’t want to view, perfect example, R-rated movies >>>>>> you obviously wouldn’t want your kids looking at? Mom and I have been >>>>>> looking at ditching DirectTv, which is expensive as ever, and we either >>>>>> don’t watch half the stuff it comes with, or don’t get the other half, >>>>>> and she wants a fire stick, and on my end, it’s somewhat been a debate >>>>>> between an apple tv or a fire stick. >>>>>>> On Apr 23, 2017, at 4:45 PM, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have, and use, an Amazon Fire Stick. In Australia and NZ, it is not >>>>>>> possible to check the local weather. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That said, Fire Stick works very well with NetFlicks. Like Apple TV, we >>>>>>> have it set to always play Audio Description when available. We prefer >>>>>>> Fire Stick over Apple TV, especially because of Codi, a way to watch >>>>>>> any show and get around geo restrictions. Unfortunately, it is not >>>>>>> speech accessible, so my partner is the only one in this household who >>>>>>> can run it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>>>>>> Mobile: +61 488 988 936 >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 24/04/2017, at 06:32, Shawn Krasniuk <bbssh...@icloud.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi David and Krister. I just purchased an Amazon Echo Dot a few weeks >>>>>>>> ago and Alexa works perfectly. I can listen to my favorite iHeartRadio >>>>>>>> stations and Pandora just fine. Granted I used a VPN to create >>>>>>>> accounts for both services but even if I didn't have them because they >>>>>>>> don't work in Canada and if I didn't have a VPN, I could still >>>>>>>> probably listen to Tunein just fine. Also I had to use an American >>>>>>>> zipcode for weather but that's no problem. If you ask Alexa for >>>>>>>> weather conditions in, say Winnipeg where I'm from, she'll tell you >>>>>>>> what it's like here. Anyway, there are a bunch of articles and Youtube >>>>>>>> videos that show that you can use Alexa outside the US, you just gotta >>>>>>>> search for them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shawn >>>>>>>> Sent From My White MacBook >>>>>>>> Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs >>>>>>>> Skype username: bbstheblindrapper >>>>>>>> Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 23, 2017, at 8:29 AM, Krister Ekstrom >>>>>>>>> <kris...@kristersplace.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That was what i was about to write a couple mails ago, many of >>>>>>>>> those digital assistants have no or limited functionality >>>>>>>>> outside the US. I’m not certain that even Google or Siri for >>>>>>>>> that matter works at their fullest here in Sweden and then >>>>>>>>> let’s not even begin to talk Samsungs new Bixby. I wonder when >>>>>>>>> or rather if it will ever reach these cold is it latitudes?:-) >>>>>>>>> /Krister >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 23 apr. 2017 kl. 14:18 skrev David Chittenden >>>>>>>>>> <dchitten...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Step outside the US, and Alexa falls apart. Unlike Siri and Google, >>>>>>>>>> Alexa does not support anything outside it's limited geographical >>>>>>>>>> area. This is why it is able to be so much better there, it is >>>>>>>>>> limited in scope. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +61 488 988 936 >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 23/04/2017, at 20:50, Shawn Krasniuk <bbssh...@icloud.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yes. Just search for Reverb for Amazon Alexa. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 23, 2017, at 5:44 AM, Simon Fogarty <si...@blinky-net.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So Sean, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This amazon alexa is available through an app for my iPhone? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Shawn >>>>>>>>>>>> Krasniuk >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 23 April 2017 9:47 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'Chris Blouch' via MacVisionaries >>>>>>>>>>>> <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: And here's an example of why Apple is losing >>>>>>>>>>>> the digital assistant game >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Scott. I'm not Yuma but I can tell you who I think is the >>>>>>>>>>>> better AI. After watching demos of the two of them, Alexa still >>>>>>>>>>>> wins hands down. Sure, with Google Now, when you ask it questions, >>>>>>>>>>>> you can ask subsequent questions about the topic you started with >>>>>>>>>>>> it. Alexa has a hard time with that, but she has more smart >>>>>>>>>>>> devices she can connect to than Google. On a video I saw, you can >>>>>>>>>>>> rectify the problem by using IFTTT, but that sounds like it could >>>>>>>>>>>> be more complicated than it should be. Also, it just sounds better >>>>>>>>>>>> to call your virtual assistant by a name rather than Google or >>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon, so Alexa wins there too. Lastly, I can use Alexa anywhere >>>>>>>>>>>> I wish, on my Mac or on my phone using Reverb and Google doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>> have anything like that yet to my knowledge besides Allo, which >>>>>>>>>>>> like I said in my last message, only sends messages through text. >>>>>>>>>>>> I'd rather have the app speak the messages the assistant sends >>>>>>>>>>>> automatically like Alexa does in Reverb. So for me, Alexa takes it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Shawn >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent From My White MacBook >>>>>>>>>>>> Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk Twitter Handle: >>>>>>>>>>>> shawnk_aka_bbs Skype username: bbstheblindrapper >>>>>>>>>>>> Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 23, 2017, at 3:19 AM, Scott Granados >>>>>>>>>>>>> <scott.grana...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wow there’s a lot of great points here. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I’m curious, as someone who’s heavily involved in AI who do you >>>>>>>>>>>>> think is the absolute cutting edge right now outside the >>>>>>>>>>>>> classified space. Maybe you could rank a little the major >>>>>>>>>>>>> publicly visible efforts like Watson verses Google verses Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> and such. Who makes you think wow that’s really impressive? We >>>>>>>>>>>>> know Apple in many ways is behind the times but who’s way ahead? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, do you have any published papers or anything I could read >>>>>>>>>>>>> of your work you’ve impressed me with your response and I’d like >>>>>>>>>>>>> to learn more about where you’re coming from. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 23, 2017, at 3:54 AM, Yuma Decaux <jamy...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wanted to chime in for a few points: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple is dispersing itself a bit too much. What's next on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> line? A Lavazza partnership for a coffee machine? Or maybe some >>>>>>>>>>>>>> jogging shoes with mag safe laces? Better yet, a Mars lander >>>>>>>>>>>>>> capsule with an enhanced version of voice over? Wait, the latter >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is something they should aim for, shoot to mars projects, not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempts at capturing consumer markets outside of what they do >>>>>>>>>>>>>> best. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In terms of the A.I, as a daily A.I programmer, I'm not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impressed at all. Why does siri forget a name I call all the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> time when it worked until then? What is the use of asking me the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> same thing all the time, when siri should know that I know the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> command better and faster than it can respond? And what about >>>>>>>>>>>>>> putting some of the phrases together, and assist in performance >>>>>>>>>>>>>> driven ways, which is the one major reason why I would like an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistant as a blind user? Wait, this bleeds into all users >>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway, and google now + alexia are taking cloud based and data >>>>>>>>>>>>>> centric approaches way higher. To be fair, Apple's frameworks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are increasingly better, and the sheer breadth of things you can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do with their libraries is the model they have taken, to create >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an eco system where the user can become one of the earners, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> participate in Apple's success, for some, along with their own. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And taking 30% off their sales. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But the fact is that Apple has lost in not using the data >>>>>>>>>>>>>> available to them, and this comes to one thing Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> distinguishes itself from the other players: The OS and hardware >>>>>>>>>>>>>> setup is a help, not a listener. Entertainment, not a commodity, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> like the advertising model Google or FB take. And this is the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> crux of their problem, which is a societal question: how much >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you privvy to your own circle, and how much is the public >>>>>>>>>>>>>> image and lifestyle? Do both agree that there are worldly >>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters that require engineering, and thus pro connectivity to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything? OSX connects to Linux, windows, and its programming >>>>>>>>>>>>>> language swift is now ported to linux. Integration with python >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and other languages is amazing, and it is c based. When you say >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's interface is easy to use, it is and it accelerates as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you learn your key commands. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But in this era of A.I, where it faults is the assistant's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> capacity to really assist, not be a gimmick with far few too >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many things to offer, despite how it markets it, which I find a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit insulting at times, knowing what the world of A.I is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently able to do, in academic circles I frequent daily. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Disgruntled but happy >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23/04/2017, at 4:11 PM, David Chittenden >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <dchitten...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon's speech recognition assistant. Works well in the US and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some places in Europe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +61 488 988 936 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23/04/2017, at 10:44, Simon Fogarty <si...@blinky-net.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry but what is this Alexa? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shawn Krasniuk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 23 April 2017 6:33 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: And here's an example of why Apple is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> losing the digital assistant game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Scott. While I'm a loyal Apple customer, I completely agree >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with you about Siri. Siri is one of the reasons I bought my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon Echo Dot. Alexa is just a better assistant than Siri >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is. I mean, with the Dot, Alexa gets better and better every >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> day with the number of skills that get added each day. With >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Siri, you have to wait until Apple updates her with every iOS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major release. This was acceptible in 2011, but when Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Google are beating you in the AI department in 2017, maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its time that Apple take notice. I'll still buy Apple products >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and use Siri to make calls, text people, and find out what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> song I'm listening to on the radio, but that's all she's good >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shawn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent From My White MacBook Facebook Username: Shawn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Krasniuk Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs Skype username: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bbstheblindrapper >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com P.S. Scott, that was a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good article about the Google Home. It's just too bad that I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't talk to the Google Assistant on my phone or my computer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like I can with Alexa using Reverb. I know that you can talk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to her with Google Allo, but with that app she doesn't speak >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> her answers back to you. For that, Alexa still wins. Also, you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can talk to her in the Google Search app, but that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> functionality only works for searches. I just wanna have fun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with it, not search for things. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2017, at 5:27 AM, Scott Granados >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <scott.grana...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, Apple brought us Siri and we had hi hopes but they’ve let >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it fall flat on it’s face and are being schooled by Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and especially google. Let’s look at the announcements >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recently from the 3 companies. Alexa continues to make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strides with additional integration across multiple platforms >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and expanded languages and ability to parse complex >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sentences, Google takes things even farther allowing their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> units to distinguish between users by their voices, provides >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tight integration with hundreds of data sources and literally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adds features on a biweekly basis, and Apple, what’s Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> announcing. Siri now can read your what’s app messages. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Big freaking whoop Apple). Google announces multiple voice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recognition and the addition of real neural net technology >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Apple can now read text messages from a 3rd party app. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They have to do better. The iPhone is such a good phone in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every way but then you’re stuck with Siri. You are letting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> us down Apple, you’re not innovating any more and you’re >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to see folks like my self for example jump off the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple band wagon and squarely on to the Google Pixel band >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wagon if you don’t get your act together. Here’s a link to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the big announcement AKA Apple’s continued stagnation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.redmondpie.com/siri-on-ios-10.3-can-now-read >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -out-new-whatsapp-messages-for-you/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this list, or if you feel that a member's post is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can reach mark at: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .com/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this list, or if you feel that a member's post is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. 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You >>>>>>>>>>>>> can reach mark at: >>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> / >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>>>>>>>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please >>>>>>>>>>>> contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on >>>>>>>>>>>> the list itself. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can >>>>>>>>>>>> reach mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>> and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>>>>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>>>>>>>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please >>>>>>>>>>>> contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on >>>>>>>>>>>> the list itself. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can >>>>>>>>>>>> reach mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>> and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>>>>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>>>>>>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please >>>>>>>>>>> contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on >>>>>>>>>>> the list itself. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can >>>>>>>>>>> reach mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and >>>>>>>>>>> your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>>>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>>>>>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please >>>>>>>>>> contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the >>>>>>>>>> list itself. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can >>>>>>>>>> reach mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and >>>>>>>>>> your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can >>>>>>>>> reach mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and >>>>>>>>> your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can >>>>>>>> reach mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and >>>>>>>> your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can >>>>>>> reach mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and >>>>>>> your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or >>>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach >>>>>> mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner >>>>>> is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>> >>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or >>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>> >>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach >>>>> mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner >>>>> is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>> >>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>> Visionaries list. >>>> >>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or >>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>> >>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach >>>> mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner >>>> is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>> >>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>> Visionaries list. >>> >>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if >>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners >>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>> >>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach >>> mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is >>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>> >>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >> Visionaries list. >> >> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if >> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or >> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >> >> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach >> mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is >> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >> >> The archives for this list can be searched at: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries > list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or > moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: > macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara Quinn - you > can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries > list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or > moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: > macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara Quinn - you > can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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