All right, Simon. I had a feeling you were a man after my own heart! <grin>
Power Shell rocks, actually. I like how it's database driven. That's a solid step up over bash and zsh. But, like everything else, it only slows you down if you haven't learned enoth commands to move fast, and I haven't. Installing Ubuntu under Microsoft WSL will give you a powerful cli with NVDA (or whichever) as your screen reader. NVDA wasn't working all that well last September, but the next NVDA upgrade fixed things up nicely. Someone via Google Summer of Code pushed some nice enhancements to NVDA's support for the terminal, and the WSL Ubuntu benefits. PS: I can't get clipboard access from it. Might be me, or might be NVDA. I don't know. Mostly, I simply get around that by redirecting output into a file. Best, Janina Simon A Fogarty writes: > Hi Janina, > > Yeah I really like the command line interface, > > I've got former colleagues who can't work without a mouse which I think is > stupid but hey they's the ones with the issues. > > I use powershell when I can as it's both nicer and more powerful and in a lot > of cases quicker to use. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 7:34 PM > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate > machine? Pls answer off list > > Hi, Simon: > > Yes, but not the graphical desktop of Ubuntu, and not the audio device > drivers either. Just the command line environment. > > Learn more here: > > https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10 > > > Note I haven't tried this under bootcamp, though I'd expect it to work. > > Note also that I choose my words above carefully. It strikes me that many > people don't grok the import of command line interface only. > Perhaps it's because the Terminal application available in the OS X Utilities > folder seems such an afterthought to many people--like--what a boring > utility, why would I ever want it? > > Well, it's the whole ballgame of the Microsoft Substem for Linux, and it's a > powerful and major part of Linux (and really all starnix) environments. > That's where the power users hang out, not in the point and click > environments. > > Best, > > Janina > > Simon A Fogarty writes: > > Hang on what? > > > > Ubuntu will install in to windows ? > > > > That would be great if it didn't screw up my windows install > > > > How do I do this and is it something you would recommend for someone who > > really hasn't touched linux in years? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries > > <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> > > Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 12:00 AM > > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > > Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a > > separate machine? Pls answer off list > > > > Hi, Simon: > > > > I believe Ubuntu installations are still very accessible, but I don't know > > that for a fact. I'd be surprised if they weren't, but I just don't > > actually know. > > > > The nice thing about trying installations is that you lose nothing by > > trying. The virgin environment is one you can quite comfortably blow up and > > start over on without losing a thing. In fact, it's a way to gain > > knowledge. Unhappy with the choices you made installing? No problem, start > > over. You lose nothing. > > > > It's not as if you had years of files, email, music, and what not on that > > machine, to say nothing of carefully crafted configuration files. > > > > Ubuntu is what I run on my Windows machine. Yes, Microsoft is now > > supporting running Linux virtual machines inside Windows, and the best > > supported of them is Ubuntu. Kind of fun using NVDA with a Ubuntu shell to > > ssh into my Linux server. Works well these days now that someone fixed NVDA > > focus in the terminal. > > > > Ubuntu and Debian are related in that they both use similar device and > > application management, eg., you use apt to install or remove software. > > Here's an example to install mplayer: > > > > On Debian and Ubuntu: > > apt-get install mplayer > > > > On Arch (which uses pacman): > > > > pacman -S mplayer > > Or, more likely one of the front ends for pacman, like yay: > > yay -S mplayer > > > > On Fedora: > > dnf install mplayer > > > > The above illustrates why the power user of one kind of Linux might not be > > all that helpful with a different flavor of Linux. Yes, the basic bash (or > > zsh) commands are the same as on the Apple terminal, but configuration, > > software management, and such is as different among Linux flavors as on Mac > > (where the terminal is essentially BSD Unix). > > > > hth > > > > Janina > > > > Simon A Fogarty writes: > > > Hi Janina, > > > > > > Your knowledge and expertise has got me interested, > > > > > > What about ubuntu these days? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries > > > <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> > > > Sent: Friday, 27 March 2020 6:55 PM > > > To: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries > > > <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> > > > Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a > > > separate machine? Pls answer off list > > > > > > OK, Andrew, I understand your situation. I'll give you my advice. But, as > > > you've undoubtedly already learned, advice is cheap and various people > > > will be passionate about their views. > > > > > > So, let me give you a first things first approach as my top suggestion. > > > Keep it simple, and keep the main thing the main thing. Linux is a "some > > > assembly" required kind of environment. If you break it, you get to keep > > > both pieces. > > > > > > So, forget vmware or any other virtualization. Not because they're > > > unworthy, they're perfect for their task, but they're complicating > > > factors that will only frustrate you. After you have experience and some > > > knowledge, you can always go back there. But learning linux management > > > under some vm isn't the next thing, it's getting a unfctioning linux in > > > the first place. I can't stress this point enough. > > > > > > That seems to leave us with a 13 year old laptop. Forget about running > > > Orca or any graphical Linux desktop on 13 year old hardware. It ain't > > > happening--not with your level of Linux skills (no offense intended). > > > > > > Could I, with my decades of Linux experience get an accessible desktop > > > working on that machine? Maybe, but not very likely. So, a word to the > > > wise, and all that. > > > > > > You can expect to run the text console environment, though, and that's > > > where the real power and attractiveness of Linux resides, actually. Yes, > > > Orca is cool and leads in some compelling feature developments. But, Mac > > > and Windows are far more accessible, imo. > > > > > > So, if you're uninterested in learning bash (or zsh) console based > > > computing, you probably want another project. > > > > > > However, if you're still on board, take heart. You have options, and you > > > should be able to make Linux talk and drive your braille display with > > > multiple console instances on each boot that you can readily switch among. > > > > > > Now, getting an installation becomes the problem. At this point I again > > > remind you to keep it simple. Forget wifi. You configure that once the > > > machine is booting reliably, not as a condition of installation. Plan to > > > connect an ethernet cable where you can avoid driver issues. The main > > > thing, remember? > > > > > > Forget Fedora. It's a powerful Linux distribution and it powers my Linux > > > vps. I'm sending you this email via my Fedora server in the cloud. But > > > the installation isn't accessible, so forget it. It just came off your > > > list--and never mind that someone on some list said they figured out how > > > to install Fedora with Orca. That ain't you. We're keeping it simple and > > > keeping the main thing the main thing, right? > > > > > > Fedora is wonderful to use, but you can't use it if you can't install it > > > in our current scenario, so you're going to forget it--at least for now. > > > > > > Debian is good. It has a cadre of true believers that wouldn't have > > > anything else. Only criticism with Debian is that it's arguably too > > > conversative, i.e. what you get tends to be older, more user tested > > > versions of kernels and applications. I do believe it's installation > > > remains quite accessible, though I don't know the particulars. I'd google > > > for that info, and also see my additional resources item below. > > > > > > Arch is what I run on my personal machines. There's an accessible Arch > > > installer here: > > > > > > https://tarch.org/ > > > > > > Note there's a fundamental philosophical distinction between Linux > > > distros like Fedora and Debian which "snapshot" into releases from time > > > to time on the one hand, and distros like Arch which never have releases > > > but rather practice rolling updates day by day and hour by hour on the > > > other hand. > > > > > > You can also forget vinux and sonar. As you've discovered, they're dead. > > > There are newer replacements both actively maintained and in process of > > > development with varying stages of maturity. I have no direct experience, > > > so I won't say anything more than to note that the community continues to > > > spin up distributions of Linux aimed at making the process easier for > > > newbies. Years ago, I was personally involved in such a project myself. > > > > > > Lastly, you need to be on the lists with people who focus on Linux as > > > blind users. Chief of these is the blinux list: > > > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > Note you can find additional resources on the Tarch page noted above. > > > > > > Remember, you're offering up 13-year old hardware for your Linux, so your > > > goal is console only. In that environment you'll have Speakup and/or > > > Fenrir for screen readers, and brltty for your braille display. > > > Those will be your main choices whether you go Debian, Arch, or something > > > else. > > > > > > And, you'll be using these either on bash or zsh sells. > > > > > > Or, you may decide to learn emacs and emacspeak--but that's yet another > > > kettle of fish that comes well after getting a function, accessible > > > system working. > > > > > > Good luck! > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Janina > > > > > > > > > > > > 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries writes: > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > A few years ago I had a go at trying to learn Linux but I failed and > > > > gave it up. I never quite parted with the idea of ever returning to it. > > > > So firstly I’d like to find out what distro I could most reliably > > > > install in VMWare Fusion or on an old Del laptop from 2007 I think, and > > > > whether I could accomplish it without sighted help. I’ve been doing a > > > > lot of research on it over the last few days given I have lost my work > > > > due to coronavirus and am having to stay at home. When researching the > > > > accessibility of Linux, some say Fedora is better, others recommend > > > > Vinux or Sonar but both Vinux and Sonar have folded and have not been > > > > updated although some pages are still on the web. Debian is supposed > > > > to be accessible and I tried the last distro but while I was able to > > > > start the installation after having burnt the .iso to cd with sighted > > > > help, the installation failed because I was unable to connect it to my > > > > wifi: Linux wasn’t finding the name of my wifi at home - something > > > > wrong maybe with drivers , goodness knows. Debian is supposed to have > > > > Orca and Braille support. So yes, if I could successfully install and > > > > run a Linux distro with orca and Braille, I’d like to have a go at > > > > learning Linux. It’s a tantalizing prospect given linux reputation for > > > > stability and safety. But I’m rather inexperienced in terminal or > > > > command line so maybe I will fail again. Still, nothing ventured, > > > > nothing gained. So if I could find out a bit on which distro might be > > > > best for me, and perhaps some contacts off the list to ask question, or > > > > even if a proficient linux user who’s blind has the time and would be > > > > willing at some point to give paid tutorials on Linux, I’d certainly > > > > feel more secure in this venture. Linux requires a whole new > > > > vocabulary whose terms I’m trying to understand. > > > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > On 26 Mar 2020, at 06:33, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries > > > > > <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Several of us on this list are long time Linux users. What are > > > > > you looking for? > > > > > > > > > > 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries writes: > > > > >> Hi, > > > > >> > > > > >> Does anybody on the list use Linux successfully either in virtual > > > > >> environment or on a separate computer? Please email off list if you > > > > >> wouldn’t mind sharing your experiences. > > > > >> > > > > >> Andrew > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> The following information is important for all members of the Mac > > > > >> Visionaries list. > > > > >> > > > > >> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this > > > > >> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please > > > > >> contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the > > > > >> list itself. > > > > >> > > > > >> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can > > > > >> reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - > > > > >> you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > > > >> > > > > >> The archives for this list can be searched at: > > > > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ > > > > >> --- > > > > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > >> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. > > > > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > > > > >> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > > > >> To view this discussion on the web visit > > > > >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/835345A5-3831-43E5-8E75-26F6CB95258D%40me.com. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka > > > > > > > > > > Linux Foundation Fellow > > > > > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org > > > > > > > > > > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative > > > > > (WAI) > > > > > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures > > > > > http://www.w3.org/wai/apa > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > The following information is important for all members of the Mac > > > > > Visionaries list. > > > > > > > > > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, > > > > > or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact > > > > > the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list > > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > > > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can > > > > > reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - > > > > > you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > > > > > > > > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ > > > > > --- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > Groups "MacVisionaries" group. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > > > > > send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/20200326063332.GE2161%40rednote.net. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > The following information is important for all members of the Mac > > > > Visionaries list. > > > > > > > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, > > > > or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact > > > > the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach > > > > mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can > > > > reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > > > > > > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ > > > > --- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > Groups "MacVisionaries" group. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > > > an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/38661F63-4E5B-40E4-9346-5DA572E2FDC6%40me.com. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Janina Sajka > > > > > > Linux Foundation Fellow > > > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org > > > > > > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) > > > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa > > > > > > -- > > > The following information is important for all members of the Mac > > > Visionaries list. > > > > > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or > > > if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the > > > owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > > > > > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach > > > mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can > > > reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > > > > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ > > > --- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > > "MacVisionaries" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/20200327055430.GH2161%40rednote.net. > > > > > > -- > > > The following information is important for all members of the Mac > > > Visionaries list. > > > > > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or > > > if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the > > > owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > > > > > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach > > > mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can > > > reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > > > > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ > > > --- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > > "MacVisionaries" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/SYCPR01MB40481ED8A13B3A97152120168ACC0%40SYCPR01MB4048.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com. > > > > -- > > > > Janina Sajka > > > > Linux Foundation Fellow > > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org > > > > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) > > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa > > > > -- > > The following information is important for all members of the Mac > > Visionaries list. > > > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners > > or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > > > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach > > mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach > > Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ > > --- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "MacVisionaries" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/20200328105933.GL2161%40rednote.net. > > > > -- > > The following information is important for all members of the Mac > > Visionaries list. > > > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners > > or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > > > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach > > mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach > > Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ > > --- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "MacVisionaries" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/SYCPR01MB404873E747E4E41B3C3012DF8ACD0%40SYCPR01MB4048.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com. > > -- > > Janina Sajka > > Linux Foundation Fellow > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org > > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries > list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or > moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: > mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/20200329063414.GA2206%40rednote.net. > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries > list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or > moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: > mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/SYCPR01MB404887E0A60EED15B2BDD4538ACA0%40SYCPR01MB4048.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com. -- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/20200329083522.GF2206%40rednote.net.
