Hi Aman,
Honestly, I have seen numbers that range from Apple having anywhere from 9
percent to 15 percent of the overall market. It all depends on what you read,
what they use for statistical data and what they are actually including as
"market share". Additionally, as I mentioned and Scott pointed out, when you
have all other vendors putting Windows on their systems sold or most of their
systems sold up against a single company, well, it's like one guy taking on an
army on his own. To me, the trends are far more telling than taking a look at
a statistic that does not tell the story. It's like looking at a team that has
won several championships years ago, yet have finished at the bottom of the
standings for practically every season since 2001. The glories of the past are
relatively meaningless in the present.
I also have to disagree with you about Apple's choice not to allow others
to make their hardware or install their software being a bad thing. This is
exactly why OS X is so secure and why OS X runs far better than Windows. You
don't have so many fingers in the pie and you don't have the aspect of
compatibility issues with every upgrade. in fact, this is why iOS can be
upgraded and updated so easily across devices. Take one look at what happens
any time Microsoft comes out with a new OS or Android is updated on the
countless types of phones that run it. You have so many issues and problems
all over the place. That would simply destroy the user experience for the Mac
user. It would also open the door to turn OS X into Windows as far as security
and stability goes.
It's funny that you say Apple targets a certain type of user. I think you
are really missing the point with that notion. Again, you might not want to
consider the current trends, but, obviously, the end user experience Apple is
famous for out weighs the extra money folks will have to pay for an Apple
product. I know MANY people who could have gone with a Dell or an HP or a
Toshiba and paid far less than they did for their Mac Book Pro or iMac. These
weren't certain types of users either, but, instead, college students and
professionals alike. Times are a changing, my friend. That is really my
point. Even the more expensive, high end Macs blow the doors off of PCs with
similar specs and which are, by the way, even more expensive than Macs. I am
thinking of someone right now who spent almost a thousand dollars more for a PC
than a friend spent on his Mac Pro, and the Mac is a much better machine.
Frankly, I never want to see Apple go the Microsoft route. I don't want to
see Mac OS X turn into the nightmare Windows is. Yeah, market share would
increase significantly, but I think that's going to happen on its own. As the
halo effect of the iDevices continues and Microsoft continues to implode under
Steve Balmer, it's only going to help Apple and Google in the long term. I
don't exactly know what you mean by, "adaptability", but we are already seeing
that as far as WHO is using Macs and who has been switching from Windows.
As a side note, I find it interesting that Windows 8 is being made to look
more and more like Mac OS X. I think this fact is probably more telling than
anything else.
Take Care
John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
j...@macfortheblind.com
http://www.macfortheblind.com
AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
MAC VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
On Apr 30, 2011, at 10:32 PM, Aman Singer wrote:
> Hi, John.
> Thank you for the civil reply. I agree with you that this thread
> risks wandering, so I will respond very briefly to all your points by
> saying three things. First, I do not deny that OSX has been increasing
> in market share for some years. I am just saying that, despite this
> increase, it still runs significantly behind Windows in the developed
> world and very significantly behind Windows worldwide. Obviously, I
> make no predictions about the future.
> Secondly, the numbers I quoted in my last message came both from data
> about sales and data of web usage. I also gave the numbers a wide
> margin of error. That is, the numbers I have read, if my memory has
> not gone back on me, are on the low end of the ranges I gave for them.
> Finally, the fact that Apple is the only seller of the operating
> systems is just the problem I have been talking about. If they allowed
> the product to be used by other manufacturers, I very probably
> wouldn't be complaining so loudly about lack of adaptability, and
> their market share might be significantly competitive.
> I think that deals with most of the issues you raise, my apologies if
> I've skimped.
> Aman
>
>
> On 4/30/11, John Panarese <jpanar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is not exactly true, though I fear the subject of this thread is
>> starting to drift far astray. It is going to start getting a bit
>> complicated if I were to explain to you the several marketing factors that
>> make your asserted numbers very misleading. Yes, without a doubt, the share
>> of OS X users compared to other operating systems, and that, by the way,
>> incorporates more than just Windows users, is significantly smaller, but,
>> again, you have to actually start to look at the numbers and break downs to
>> see the shifts over the last 5 years alone.
>>
>> Also keep in mind that Apple is one company making the operating system
>> and manufacturing the hardware. How many PC companies are out there
>> competing against Apple and are forced to put Windows on to their systems by
>> their agreements with Microsoft? Not to mention, how many other different
>> operating systems, aside from OS X and Windows are often included when
>> people start tossing around "market share" numbers? It gets way too complex
>> and, again, this subject will start to drift into something far out of hand.
>>
>> Suffice it to say, examining overall trends worldwide over the last 5
>> years clearly demonstrates that Mac OS X is swiftly gaining ground as, by
>> way of comparison, Windows is shrinking. Remember that while Apples 48
>> percent of laptop market share this passed year and 25 percent of desktop
>> sales equals OS X users. Additionally, a lot of these surveys used to
>> generate percentages does not consider the number of people who are running
>> both Mac and Windows simultaneously in their house. And, of course, how
>> many people are forced to use Windows at work, but use Macs at home. Then,
>> of course, what the iPad has done and will continue to do to desktop and
>> laptop sales figures also is a statistic that has not fully been grasped,
>> especially when the iPad is actually running on OS X.
>>
>> Lastly, as a final fact that is often not addressed, one of the major
>> differences between Apple and Microsoft in market data is how sales are
>> counted. Apple only considers actual sales and activations by the end user
>> in their numbers. Microsoft counts anything shipped to retail stores as
>> "sales". In other words, they don't consider how much inventory goes unsold
>> and gathers dust on shelves, as was the case with the Zune, Windows Vista
>> and as currently occurring with Windows Phone 7 handsets, Also, how many
>> people take Windows off their PCs, laptops or net books after the sale to
>> use Linux or another alternative. No matter how you slice it, the trend
>> over the last 5 years shows that Windows use is decreasing while Mac OS X
>> usage is growing rapidly. When Windows has owned the planet for some 15
>> years prior, breaking down that mammoth volume is not an immediate figure as
>> it stands on its own.
>>
>> Anyway, folks, my apologies for wandering.
>>
>> On Apr 30, 2011, at 3:17 PM, Aman Singer wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, Scott.
>>> Let me first thank you for a civil reply. I am grateful for your
>>> answering my message without a hint of emotionalism and without trying
>>> to defend any particular technology or option in a sharp way. I think
>>> my reply to Tim deals with everything below except for one matter, and
>>> that is market share.
>>> You say
>>> APple has not failed at all and in
>>>> fact has made an absolutely significant leap in the market. THe numbers
>>>> speak for themselves
>>>
>>> With respect, I think the numbers indicate that Apple is a very
>>> successful tablet and music player maker, a successful phone maker, a
>>> fairly successful hardware maker, and a failure as an operating system
>>> development company. So far as I know, Apple has yet to hit the ten
>>> percent mark in operating system usage, and is significantly below
>>> that worldwide. Even in the United States, their home territory, their
>>> operating system usage is still somewhere between ten and twenty
>>> percent, so far as I know. This indicates that, though they have
>>> improved, they are still very far behind Microsoft. The fact that a
>>> student has progressed from getting 10% on an examination to getting
>>> 35%, while creditable, does not mean he is passing the course, still
>>> less that he is doing very well. I have no financial or emotional
>>> investment in Apple or any other OS company. I am just noting what I
>>> see, and what I see is that Apple is still doing fairly badly in OS
>>> usage, even after a great deal of hype and a long period of
>>> improvement. My conclusion, based on the evidence I've put up in my
>>> other messages on this thread, is that some of this is due to their
>>> product not being as adaptable as the other OS products.
>>> Aman
>>>
>>> scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Aman,
>>>>
>>>> For The best thing is you have choice. APple has not failed at all and in
>>>> fact has made an absolutely significant leap in the market. THe numbers
>>>> speak for themselves and based on that it is apparent many feel the Mac
>>>> is a
>>>> worthwhile investment. I understand your point concerning a mobile
>>>> solution
>>>> and you want something that is cheap, so if it is stolen or damaged, you
>>>> are
>>>> out hundreds instead of a $1,000 etc. That works for you and You are
>>>> correct
>>>> that a computer is a tool, but in purchasing any tool, you have to
>>>> consider
>>>> your needs and what you are willing to invest in the tool. An inexpensive
>>>> machine might be perfect for you when traveling etc., and again you have
>>>> choice, which is great. However, if you have the money or are willing to
>>>> make the investment in a more expensive tool because it will better meet
>>>> your needs, then at least you have options. I could not disagree more
>>>> though
>>>> that APple has failed to consider consumers. If that were the case they
>>>> would not be in the position they are today. Is Bose wrong for charging
>>>> what
>>>> they do for their products? THey charge more for headphones etc. then
>>>> most
>>>> manufacturers, but there is again even in this space a price point to fit
>>>> all budgets. Bose however charges what they believe is a reasonable price
>>>> for their product and this holds true for APple. Just because someone
>>>> cannot
>>>> afford or wishes to spend the money does not mean the company has failed.
>>>> Does this make sense?
>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 10:34 PM, Aman Singer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi, Carolyn and all.
>>>>> I do not use a Mac for two reasons. The first, and most important,
>>>>> has nothing to do with this thread, but a second, and almost equally
>>>>> important reason is one which Carolyn's message below hints at.
>>>>> Carolyn writes
>>>>> The Mac is a totally different system, and built to some stringent
>>>>> specifications. You don't see any Macs for $300 as you do for PC
>>>>> machines. And there's
>>>>> a good reason. They're worth more.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think they are worth more. That's not to say that they're worth
>>>>> what is being charged for them, but if you're saying that a Mac is
>>>>> worth more than most netbooks, I absolutely agree. The problem with
>>>>> Apple is, though, that they don't realize that technology needs to be
>>>>> adaptable to be taken up by a large number of people. I want a very
>>>>> good desktop and an adequate laptop. That's because I want to carry my
>>>>> laptop around with me everywhere. I want it light and I don't want to
>>>>> worry about damaging it, losing it, etc. I can use my powerful desktop
>>>>> remotely and everything works well. A $300 netbook is just the thing
>>>>> for me. No Mac is. The wonderful thing about both Windows and Linux is
>>>>> that they are so adaptable. Your $250 netbook runs Windows, and your
>>>>> $1000 laptop runs Windows, and your $2500 desktop runs Windows. Your
>>>>> plug PC costing $50 runs Linux and your $500 laptop Runs Linux and
>>>>> your $2500 desktop runs Linux. Obviously, I could say more, but I'm
>>>>> speaking strictly as a consumer. Anyhow, this is where Apple fails.
>>>>> Their products are adaptable over a narrow range. For many
>>>>> circumstances, what you want is simply something that will do the job
>>>>> cheaply and reasonably, and that usually isn't a Mac. Sometimes you
>>>>> want the fastest/best components on the market and here, again, Apple
>>>>> fails because of its stringency. For example, SSDs were available for
>>>>> other computers for nearly a year before they were available for the
>>>>> Mac. I think what Brant is pointing out here isn't that the Mac is too
>>>>> expensive for what you get, though that may well be true, but is too
>>>>> rigidly expensive for certain users, and too rigidly cheap for others.
>>>>> The fact that he finds the prices high is just a symptom, the disease,
>>>>> if I may be so fanciful, is that a Mac machine doesn't adapt to his
>>>>> situation. If you want the very high-end or the somewhat/very low-end,
>>>>> you don't want a new Mac. If you want to spread your money
>>>>> differently, spending more on certain components and less on others,
>>>>> you don't want a Mac at all. Of course, that also means that your
>>>>> skill set on a Mac, and this is particularly as an AT user, isn't as
>>>>> useful because it isn't used on as many devices and at as many
>>>>> locations.
>>>>> Now, you may argue that all of the above is well and good for the
>>>>> ordinary user but that it doesn't apply to the blind user because of
>>>>> the cost of screen readers and other at. The cost savings, though, on
>>>>> AT, have been somewhat exaggerated, in my view. They apply most
>>>>> obviously to a person who has never bought a screen reader or other AT
>>>>> before, and who wants something a bit more complicated than NVDA. This
>>>>> person saves money, and gets capability, with the Mac. Others don't
>>>>> save money quickly, don't save it at all, or take a cut in capability
>>>>> when they buy a Mac. An example of where the financial savings take
>>>>> quite a while to kick in is where people have already purchased a
>>>>> screen reader, Say Jaws or Window Eyes, and are purchasing a Mac
>>>>> rather than purchasing an SMA. Depending on the cost of the Mac and
>>>>> the SMA, their savings may not kick in for anywhere from 2-5 years.
>>>>> Again, people who want multiple computers, even if it is two machines,
>>>>> can, because they need only purchase the screen reader once, end up
>>>>> spending less on the Windows option over all. The more computers you
>>>>> have, the more the cost of a screen reader purchase is wiped out by
>>>>> cheaper hardware. Again, people who run Windows for any reason do not
>>>>> save money except possibly for upgrade costs in their screen reader.
>>>>> Again, people who want fairly simple computing can buy a netbook, use
>>>>> NVDA, and save large amounts of money compared to those who buy a Mac.
>>>>> My point, as if I haven't belaboured it enough, is that the Mac is not
>>>>> adaptable in the same way the PC is, and that what I hear from those
>>>>> who say that "the Mac costs more because it's better than Windows
>>>>> Machines", ignores the further question "Why should I care if I don't
>>>>> need to pay for a better machine?".
>>>>> Note that where Apple has been really successful, they have brought
>>>>> out devices which either push forward a category in its infancy (the
>>>>> iPad and iPod), or fit into a fairly narrow category (iPhone). They
>>>>> haven't been general purpose, like PCs are.
>>>>> I should say that I know about, but completely ignore, the cool/other
>>>>> emotional factors in buying any computer. I understand that people buy
>>>>> the Mac because they feel that they're supporting accessibility, or
>>>>> that buying mainstream technology rather than specialized access
>>>>> technology is somehow important/beneficial, or that they like Apple's
>>>>> design philosophy, or that their friends have Macs, and so on. I
>>>>> acknowledge that these are reasons for some people, they're just not
>>>>> reasons for me. I am not emotionally invested in any platform or
>>>>> computer, a computer is a tool, and the only questions that matters to
>>>>> me is what can it do and how much does it cost? It seems to me that
>>>>> the Mac is still on the high-cost end of the curve, and that its
>>>>> capabilities do not justify the premium charged by Apple which, as I
>>>>> understand Brandt, is what he is saying.
>>>>> Aman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/29/11, carolyn Haas <chaas0...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Brandt:
>>>>>> Couldn't disagree with this point of view more. First you're comparing
>>>>>> Apples and raspberries.:)
>>>>>> The Mac is a totally different system, and built to some stringent
>>>>>> specifications. You don't see any Macs for $300 as you do for PC
>>>>>> machines.
>>>>>> And there's a good reason. They're worth more.
>>>>>> Secondly: you're buying mainstream technology, and not having to fork
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> the price of a second machine just to get it to talk. Voiceover is
>>>>>> built
>>>>>> into the system, not as an adaptation of the system.
>>>>>> As such, Vo is intended to give the VI Mac user a more accurate picture
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the screen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, even at $299, if docuscan works as well as we're hoping it
>>>>>> does,
>>>>>> it's still a third of the price of your krzweil or openbook programs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, but I believe when you buy a Mac, you get what you pay for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Carolyn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 12:33 AM, brandt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi there,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, $299 is a fair bit of money, but how many actually went and
>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>> open Book or something similar back when ever for 3 ore 4 times more?
>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>> biggest complaint is not the cost of software but the ridiculous
>>>>>>> prices
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> Mac computers. I can and probably will go the Hakintosh route just
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> of that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Warm regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brandt Steenkamp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you like country, oldies and the occasional modern track, you can
>>>>>>> tune
>>>>>>> in to my show, "an Eclectic mess" every Wednesday afternoon at 3 PM
>>>>>>> UTC
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> going to www.TheGlobalVoice.info
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Contact me:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Skype: brandt.steenkamp007
>>>>>>> MSN: brandt...@live.com
>>>>>>> Google talk/AIM: brandt.steenk...@gmail.com
>>>>>>> Twitter @brandtsteenkamp
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: E.J. Zufelt
>>>>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:23 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: For those who can actually afford this, DocuScan Plus is
>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>> on the mac app store.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know nothing at all about this app. But, I suspect that a
>>>>>>> significant
>>>>>>> portion of the cost is related to licencing a OCR SDK
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Everett Zufelt
>>>>>>> http://zufelt.ca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter
>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> View my LinkedIn Profile
>>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2011-04-28, at 10:05 PM, Matthew Campbell wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello Listers.
>>>>>>>> DocuScan is now mac compatible and can be found on the mac app store.
>>>>>>>> Don't get too excited though, unless you have $299.00 to burn on it.
>>>>>>>> Hope this actually benefits someone.
>>>>>>>> the Infuriated Matt Campbell.
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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