Craig, I'm not dismissing your opinion outright. There's always the
possibility I could be too harsh and take the wrong approach, so I re-read my
reply to Mike after he complained. There is no hostility. It IS, admittedly,
very BLUNT. Please don't confuse the two. Interpretation depends largely on
the bias of the reader-- someone looking for hostility is going to see it when
it isn't there. I respectfully submit that's the case here. But I do have a
tendency to use very stark words when making a point (as I am doing in this
reply), and that's solely to be very clear. Some mistake that for hostile
tone... but if I'm being hostile, trust me: I'll make THAT very clear. And
I'll freely admit it... you can trust that, too.
I felt no anger or animosity when I composed that email. There was, however,
the frustration at seeing yet another too-broad brush being deployed against
the Maemo council and other contributing community members. In my opinion, the
original allegation of *elitism* was hostile and unwarranted. So I defended
those I felt were unfairly targeted and asked Mike to be more specific going
forward. I fail to see harm in that, but maybe you can explain in a subsequent
private email.
As a fan of feedback I value very much the effort put into constructive
criticism-- but the emphasis is on constructive. Plain venting can be
cathartic for the one venting, but not so much for the recipients.
To the topic:
A community is what members make of it, and what their experiences bring to
it. Disgruntled people will see hostility. Inexperienced people will see
barriers. Impatient people will see trolls. Cheerful people will see
opportunities. Etc etc etc. So a great deal of what people perceive in ANY
community is colored by their own preconceived notions and histories. I'm
sorry if that assessment comes across as too blunt or hostile, but I'm not a
fan of "political correctness". Reality is what it is.
The Maemo community is like any other in that it has a mix of personalities...
but overall it is a welcome place. A friendly place. A helpful place. And as
with any community, the few troublemakers can create enough noise and trouble
that they disproportionately impact its perception, especially for newcomers.
None of this is new or unique.
MeeGo is a little different. As has been noted, it's more "business like". The
fun and frivolity we often enjoy at maemo.org has not made it over (yet?). I
hope it does... because IMO communications in the MeeGo sphere are generally
too stiff and cold. I've made it a personal goal to change that as much as one
person can... so far not so good.
Anyway I do feel the frustration of people who feel unwelcome in any
community. That's one reason I started Maemo and MeeGo Greeters. That's one
reason I thank posts in the "Hello I'm New here" threads. Little things make
people feel welcome. But other little things also get blown out of proportion,
and THAT is where I get blunt.
Randall (Randy) Arnold
MeeGo Community Office: Device Program
http://texrat.net
>________________________________
>From: Craig Woodward <[email protected]>
>To: List for community development <[email protected]>
>Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 10:26 PM
>Subject: Re: My Perception of the Maemo/MeeGo Community
>
>TexRat,
>
>We've had several interesting and lively discussions on t.m.o. I've never
>interpreted what you've said there as mean-spirited. And even when we've
>disagreed there has always been a level of civility. I'd like to think we've
>actually been in agreement on several topics, and had good reasons for seeing
>things differently when we've not been directly in alignment. Please consider
>that as you read the following. And consider that I'm telling you this not as
>an "attack", but as a concern that something is happening here that we may all
>need to look at in order to prevent this exact problem from repeating itself
>in the future.
>
>Let me state clearly: When I first read your reply, I did a double take. I
>even went to t.m.o. to verify that the registered email matched the user
>account, assuming someone was using your name. This reply was probably *the
>most offensive reply* I've read on this mailing list (though not on t.m.o...
>that's a separate bar to hit, out in orbit at this point).
>
>You may not have intended it as such, and in fact I'm betting you were not
>intentionally writing to berate or belittle the OPs opinion. He did clearly
>state it as an opinion, which others may not share. I don't know if it's a
>perception issue, a language difference, a cultural divide (I'm from the US
>also), or some combination of wording or structure. But your initial reply
>came across to me as an attack, both in form and in tone. The follow-up seems
>even have a bit of a childish "it's you, not me" edge or attitude, which I've
>never seen you evoke on t.m.o. or on this list in the past.
>
>If you truly can re-read your comments and not see how it could be interpreted
>as being hostile, it more proves the original point; That there's some type of
>communication issue here that merits review.
>
> *-=<{[ AS TO THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD ]}>=-*
>
>I too was originally put off by a few posters on t.m.o. when I initially
>joined. There was a consensus among the older members that the N900 was
>unworthy of it's place in the N700/800 line and of the OS it bore. There was
>also some resentment against Nokia/Maemo for unfinished work ("Fixed in
>Freemantle"), that was often misdirected against "noobs" and new, optimistic
>N900 owners. New N900 owners were very much seen not as a flood of new people
>to invite and encourage to participate, but as a horde of the "unwashed" to be
>weeded through to find the few pearls amoung the swine.
>
>You may recall a rather long spat I had with Gerbic when I first joined t.m.o.
>a couple years back. I definitely got a "Who are you?" and a series of "Don't
>you know who I am?" type replies. But then I'd just shelled out a good deal
>of money and time to get my mits on what I saw as the best device I'd ever
>owned, and was not about to let a small handful of kill-joys demote it (or me)
>before it had a chance to bloom. Others turned tail and left, or worse,
>soured on the experience and left negative feedback and reviews. (Or remained
>just to throw vinegar...)
>
>When I first went to the MeeGo forums, I found it clunky and awkward to
>navigate. There wasn't much there (it was early after all), but the few
>"members" that were there seemed to all have the same negative attitudes I
>found when I first came to t.m.o. I decided to sit out for a bit and see if
>things improved later. It wasn't even booting on the N900 at that stage, and
>I didn't have the time to devote to a new hardware project. A few months
>later, many of the MeeGo folks showed up on t.m.o. and started (for the most
>part) talking down Maemo. They promoted the idea (subtly at first) that
>developers should cross-develop for MeeGo on the N900, or drop developing for
>Maemo entirely in favor of MeeGo. You may recall there was a rather long
>debate on t.m.o. about weather MeeGo should be posted about there. That
>ultimately ended with the small band of pro-MeeGo people (including the OP)
>leaving, after essentially saying Meego for the N900 wasn't
for "common" people (in less polite wording), and confirming they were really
only there to try to pull developers away from Maemo and into MeeGo.
>
>Together with reading the MeeGo forums as recently as a month or so ago, I
>have to say, I've found it to have a *very* negative and anti-user bent. In
>fact, the feel I got was that if you're not already in the "MeeGo circle", and
>can code an app from scratch for MeeGo with 0 help from the people on the
>forum, you're essentially a waste of time and not invited to play in their
>reindeer games. Understand, I've been in the open-source community a long
>time. (You'll find my college address from RIT in several bits of code all
>over the internet back to pre-web times, including Linux, FreeBSD, and XOrg
>code, dating back to the early 90s.) By far, I've found the MeeGo crowd to be
>one of the least inviting development circles I've encountered in many, many
>years.
>
>I do have to say though, that I disagree in general with the OPs views on
>t.m.o. and in particular the council. In general, I've found both (with a
>couple of minor exceptions) to be very inviting. I've also found many go out
>of their way to provide thanks and information to those seeking it there.
>I've done the same, and to try to act as a voice of reason and moderation when
>it's been needed. And yes, I've gotten in a pissing match or two... we're all
>human. But I'd like to think my general contributions have be positive ones.
>
>Overall, I can see how the OP may have gotten the impression he did based on
>his experiences there. It only takes a few bad grapes to spoil a single
>bottle of wine. And if you assume the whole batch is bad from that,
>especially if there are a few bad bottles, who's to blame? All I can say to
>that is, my view doesn't line up with his and invite him to look again.
>Perhaps even offering a slightly more "guided" path, like the threads for
>Modrana, or FFM, or h.e.n., where there's more good than bad.
>
>Make no mistake though, there is something going on here, right now, in this
>series of replies. Not acknowledging it, or brushing it off, will not help
>the situation. Attacking (or defending) a feeling with another is not
>helpful, and is what I suspect is happening here. Like many things, if you
>ignore it, it will go away. In this case the "it" we're talking about are
>potential developers, helpers, users, and community members. If we lose
>those, why are we even here?
>
>-Woody14619
>
>---- "Randall Arnold" <[email protected]> wrote:
>=============
>
>>________________________________
>>From: Michael Cronenworth <[email protected]>
>>To: [email protected]
>>Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 2:45 AM
>>Subject: Re: My Perception of the Maemo/MeeGo Community
>>
>>On 08/13/2011 02:40 PM, Randall Arnold wrote:
>
>>>
>>> It's unfortunate you felt led to insult the community at large for actions
>>> of an unrepresentative few. That works against solving any problems you
>>> perceive. I urge you to rethink your approach and conclusions. Broad
>>> accusations hurt more than help.
>>>
>>These two paragraphs highlight why I made my original e-mail. Your reply is
>>an attempt to attack me. I never "insulted" anyone. The adjectives I used
>>were earned.
>>
>
>That remark says everything. For one, some of your comments were indeed
>insulting, and I didn't come close to "attacking" you. Instead, I suggested
>that your own attitude and approach *may* play a part in the problems you
>allege. If you see that as an attack, then that explains your misguided
>perception of the community.
>
>
>Good luck with your future endeavors, where ever they lead you.
>
>
>Randy
>
>_______________________________________________
>maemo-community mailing list
>[email protected]
>https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>
>_______________________________________________
>maemo-community mailing list
>[email protected]
>https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>
>
>_______________________________________________
maemo-community mailing list
[email protected]
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
