> On 28 Dec 2018, at 15:50, Benjamin BILLON <bbil...@splio.com> wrote: > > Ah, I would have answered off-list, but since it's here, I can certainly > reply here. > > Preamble: if there's a better channel than Mailop to give Microsoft an > educated feedback about an apparent disfunction of their service, please let > me know. I already tried quite a few "official" others with no result. Also, > we've been patient and polite, maybe too much. You don't take care of patient > people's problems, you prioritize those of the loud ones (yellow jacket, > anyone?). It's all human. As for Gmail Postmaster Tools APIs, if the email > community doesn't make noise enough to be heard by Google that we want those > and why, chances are we'll never get them (and I said I would work on making > some noise, and still didn't yet, I'm also only human, apparently).
I haven’t found public shaming to be effective at getting significant policy changes to happen in most cases. Even in the cases I’ve been involved in that did involve some public statements that could be considered public shaming, there was a significant amount of behind the scenes work. One on one and small group (sometimes under NDA) discussions about the issues, evidence shared. The public piece was a small bit of the overall work that went into convincing the companies involved that their policies were bad. And that’s what you’re trying to do: convince Microsoft that their filtering is broken. In my experience this is possible, but not third hand through employees who post on a public mailing list. It’s mostly relationship based and finding the decision maker inside the company. The MS employees who post here have made it very, very clear they’re not the decision makers. All they can do is pass information on. They’re likely frustrated as well. But they’re in an even more uncomfortable position. Personally, I believe Microsoft is going to do what they’re going to do. This isn’t just about their filtering, this is a giant corporate culture that has some Extremely Poor Policies that are unfriendly to people and are actively harmful to the internet. My big complaints aren’t mail related, they’re other abuse issues that Microsoft simply isn’t dealing with. But getting Microsoft to step up and change and become a responsible corporate member of the internet? I just don’t see it happening, no matter how much evidence is presented. > A _lot_ of senders are hitting issues with Outlook.com <http://outlook.com/>. > A lot of them understands that it's not an easy issue to fix, and that it's > less a priority than catching phishing, pedophilia contents or other things > that make Outlook's people sweat, but it doesn't mean that it's not a real > problem that shouldn't be fixed at some point. A lot of senders are also > staying quiet, for various reasons, but are still sharing the same legitimate > frustration. There are problems we can fix and problems we can’t. We can’t make Microsoft change. We can’t force them to listen to us. We can present them with data showing the problems, but we cannot force them to change things. More recently, the public statements from Microsoft tell me the filtering is working for them. I’m really unconvinced that "sharing frustrations" is a useful way to get policy changed. > So, dear readers, there's a new piece of information since earlier today: I > found out that the "weird behavior" came back, but not on the shared IPs I > said I switched that client into. Indeed, for an unknown reason that my team > is trying to figure out, the client's last few sendings (those with the > issue) were sent from their dedicated IPs. So with the same issue as before > the switch of IPs. That does change everything. Much of my post was related to trusting you were reliably describing what was happening - that you’d moved to new IPs and the filters caught up. That wasn’t the situation, so yeah, OK, Microsoft filtering is broken. Still. Again. It’s not you, it’s them. Small facts can make seriously big differences. This is one of those things. It changes everything. It means everything I said to you is based on incorrect facts. Which makes it bad advice. I’m sorry. I can only go on what you tell us. Thing is, what can we do about it? At least one ESP has told me they’ve sent Microsoft clear evidence that their filtering is broken. This was… sometime over the summer, I think (I’ve got to admit, the move has really disrupted my life). Given Microsoft still hasn’t changed and their statements at recent conferences that they’re happy with the filtering as is. It’s pretty clear to me they’re not listening to anyone complaining and the only real solution is figure out how to work in their paradigm. laura -- Having an Email Crisis? We can help! 800 823-9674 Laura Atkins Word to the Wise la...@wordtothewise.com (650) 437-0741 Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog
_______________________________________________ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
