<x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type><!DOCTYPE
HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC
"-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<META content='"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Gregory Nagy, in _Greek Mythology and Poetics_, discusses the
Indo-European etymology of quercus. He adduces evidence that this tree was
associated with the IE sky god (Dyauh-Pitar, Iuppiter, Zeus, etc.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>On the Greek side, there are the references to Zeus' oak
(Dios
phe:gos) in the Iliad (5.693 and 7.58-60). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>TCM</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>-----Original Message-----</B><BR><B>From:
</B>Oliver P Metzger <<A
href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A>><BR><B>To:
</B><A href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> <<A
href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A>><BR><B>Date:
</B>Saturday, November 07, 1998 9:44 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>VIRGIL: The Oak
Simile in Book IV<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial> I would very much
appreciate any reactions that people on the list might have to some
thoughts
I've put together on a particular passage in Book IV that has long
fascinated me. Apropos of certain recent mails on this list, I would
like to mention that I'm not a student.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial> I'm interested in the
scene
in which Anna pleads with Aeneas to stay with Dido, but he refuses.
At
IV.441 ff., Vergil says that Aeneas withstands Anna's pleas as an oak
withstands the tempest: its leaves are torn free, but its trunk withstands
the wind. It survives. Vergil explains that the oak derives its
great stength from the fact that <I>quantum vertice ad auras </I>/<I>
aetherias, tantum radice in Tartara tendit</I>--'as far as the it lifts its
top to the airs of heaven, so far it strikes its roots down towards hell.'
(Loeb translation).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial> This scene, and this simile,
strike me as one of the most important in the whole work. There is
obviously a significant structural break following the fourth book, as the
issues of the first four books (Dido, Aeneas's lack of focus etc.) are
resolved (for better or worse), and new issues (Turnus, diplomacy etc.)
take
their place. After Book Four, Aeneas' agenda no longer seems to be
whether to found Rome, but how. And I think it is in the scene with
Anna that we first realize that he is changing. This is our first
glimpse of the new man, and the simile that Vergil places at this center of
gravity for the whole work says a great deal about who that man will
be.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial> That new man is compared
with an oak, which gets its strength from a peculiar sort of balance:
as high as it reaches, so too does it grasp deeper "<EM>in
Tartara</EM>." I recognize that one must be careful not to
equate
the Roman underworld with Christian "hell", but I think it is
nevertheless fair to say that Vergil is saying that the oak can achieve its
heights because it also partakes of something, shall we say,
chthonian. What is being said about Aeneas here? What are these
roots reaching into the underworld? His ability to harden himself to
the love of a woman? Perhaps it is just a Stoical message that
Aeneas's ability to focus on duty "saves" Aeneas from the
"tempest" of emotion that is buffeting him. But this
Stoical
interpretation ignores the Tartarus reference. I think all of this is
unsettling, but consistent with Jove having fiends (<EM>Dirae</EM>) born of
Night by his throne, and using them to assassinate people (XII.843
ff.). (Maybe this is how Jove survives too.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial> For that matter, what are
the leaves that are torn from this oak by the tempest? What does
Aeneas lose the day of Anna's visit? Dido, surely, but what
else? Perhaps the prospect of ever having anything other than a
"professional" marriage. In any event, I think it's
something more that "innocence."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial> At the risk of
<EM>entirely</EM> 20th-century-izing an ancient simile, I'll ask: is
Aeneas's <EM>ego</EM> (in either the sense-of-self, or the
inflated-sense-of-self sense) a leaf or a root? What about
luck?
Vision or leadership ability? <EM>Lack</EM> of vision/obliviousness
or
leadership ability? The oak stands while the others fall, so
presumably it is better to stand... but why? Is it more <EM>noble
</EM>to do so?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial> Any thoughts? Or perhaps any
references to scholarship focusing on this passage, or on the symbolic
importance of the oak? I remember being told that Vergil uses an oak
simile in the Georgics or Eclogues, but cannot remember where, and in any
event do not recall the simile having the same moral freight. I also
note that Cassell's Latin Dictionary lists the following as a definition of
"robur" (in addition to "oak"): "the underground
dungeon in the prison of Servius Tullius at Rome." I also have
an
architectual dictionary that corroborates this (in fact states that the
"robur" was specifically the chamber in which executions took
place. The OCD, however, calls this chamber the
"Tullianum.") Would this have added an overtone in ancient
times to Vergil's reference to Aeneas as an oak?
</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
</x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Nov 07 17:47:21 1998
Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Received: from midway.uchicago.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [128.135.12.12])
by plaisance.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09179;
Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:21:45 -0600 (CST)
Received: from wilsoninet.com ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [192.41.8.139]) by
midway.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA29702; Sat, 7 Nov 1998
15:19:33 -0600 (CST)
Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id OAA29150; Sat, 7 Nov
1998 14:16:30 -0700 (MST)
X-Authentication-Warning: wilsoninet.com: Host post-12.mail.demon.net
[194.217.242.41] claimed to be post.mail.demon.net
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:44:22 +0000
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: VIRGIL: sand without bottom
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Turnpike (16) Version 3.05 <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr6T$HeP8+s$>
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-UIDL: c2aec10f0d9d0c1c4dcd6593a129add0
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Thomas Weil Siegel
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>I'm an architect and have often heard that the famous quote "Firmness,
>Commodity, Delight" comes from the Roman Vetruvious. I'm wondering if
>anyone out there might be able to give me Vetruvious' exact words in
>Latin and perhaps the work from which this quote comes.
Vitruvius, De architectura, book 1, chapter 2, section 3: Haec auteem
ita fieri debent ut habeatur ratio firmitatis, utilitatis, venustatis.
If I had to translate I should render
These things should be done [i.e. architecture should be conducted] in
such as way as to take account of strength, serviceableness, and charm.
and paraphrase: 'build it to last, build it to do the job, build it to
be attractive'.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone
Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter?
OX2 6EJ
tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work)
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply.
Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message
"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You
can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
