At 09:55 PM 7/30/00 -0400, david connor wrote: >There's a fine new poem by Louise Gluck entitled "Roman Study" that makes some >subtle points about Virgil and I'd be curious to hear some reactions to it. It >can be read at the Barnes & Noble website under her name.
David, do you have a more precise URL for this poem? I checked the B&N web site and didn't find anything.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c.
"Roman Study" is a poem in the 1999 volume "Vita Nova", which bn has at http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=4EV9G X12V5&mscssid=CAALERVWD3S92GSH001PQU6AVWPAC34D&isbn=0880016345
((note that a long url like this might get split up funny by your e-mail; delete any extra spaces. or just go to bn and search for Gluck and Vita Nova; then click on "read a chapter"))
The site actually lets you read part of the book, including the poem mentioned, and another called THE QUEEN OF CARTHAGE:
http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=4EV9G X12V5&mscssid=CAALERVWD3S92GSH001PQU6AVWPAC34D&isbn=0880016345&display only=chapter
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Do you have a publisher, ISBN for this book? HCOB
From: "Jim O'Hara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 20:52:27 +0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Louise Gluck, "Roman Study"
At 09:55 PM 7/30/00 -0400, david connor wrote:There's a fine new poem by Louise Gluck entitled "Roman Study" that makessomesubtle points about Virgil and I'd be curious to hear some reactions toit. Itcan be read at the Barnes & Noble website under her name.
David, do you have a more precise URL for this poem? I checked the B&N web site and didn't find anything.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c.
"Roman Study" is a poem in the 1999 volume "Vita Nova", which bn has
at http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=4EV9G
X12V5&mscssid=CAALERVWD3S92GSH001PQU6AVWPAC34D&isbn=0880016345
((note that a long url like this might get split up funny by your e-mail; delete any extra spaces. or just go to bn and search for Gluck and Vita Nova; then click on "read a chapter"))
The site actually lets you read part of the book, including the poem mentioned, and another called THE QUEEN OF CARTHAGE:
http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=4EV9G X12V5&mscssid=CAALERVWD3S92GSH001PQU6AVWPAC34D&isbn=0880016345&display only=chapter
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Do you have a publisher, ISBN for this book? HCOB
from http://barnesandnoble.com/ Vita Nova Louise Gluck Our [bn] Price: $17.60 Retail Price: $22.00 You Save: $4.40 (20%) In-Stock: Ships within 24 hours Format: Hardcover, 50pp. ISBN: 0880016345 Publisher: The Ecco Press Pub. Date: February 1999
Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara
Professor of Classical Studies Classical Studies Dept.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University
860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146
Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Aug 07 12:08:43 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 7 Aug 2000 11:09:30 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA06193; Mon, 07 Aug 2000 08:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 16:05:27 +0100 From: Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Louise Gluck, "Roman Study" In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host mail1.mail.iol.ie [194.125.2.192] claimed to be mail.iol.ie Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank you very much HCOB
From: "Jim O'Hara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 09:44:36 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Louise Gluck, "Roman Study"
Do you have a publisher, ISBN for this book? HCOB
from http://barnesandnoble.com/ Vita Nova Louise Gluck Our [bn] Price: $17.60 Retail Price: $22.00 You Save: $4.40 (20%) In-Stock: Ships within 24 hours Format: Hardcover, 50pp. ISBN: 0880016345 Publisher: The Ecco Press Pub. Date: February 1999
Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Aug 07 13:09:34 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:07:05 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id KAA26027; Mon, 07 Aug 2000 10:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 12:08:36 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: a vulgate text in the middle ages? Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
A week or so ago I asked the list whether 20 USD was too much to pay for
Geymonat's edition if one already had Mynors. Boy am I glad I did. Only now
that I have it do I begin to realize what I was missing!
For the last two years or so, I've been worrying about which text of Virgil scholars of medieval literature should cite. (For scholars of renaissance literature, there is a simple solution: pick a popular printed edition, e.g., Paulus Manutius.) This weekend, however, I finally went to see Mission Impossible II, and while I was waiting for the movie to start I pulled out an article by Walter Pagani and started reading. This is how he describes his citation practice for the Aeneid: "Cito dall'ediz. a. c. di A. Hirtzel (Oxford 1900); ma segnalo le varianti della Vulgata Medievale come risultano dall'apparto dell'ediz. curata da R. Sabbadini (Roma 1930)."
Both of these editions have been superseded, Hirtzel by Mynors, Sabbadini
by Geymonat. What caught my attention were the words "Vulgata Medievale."
Could there have been such a beast? I hadn't noticed a reference to one in
the front matter to Mynors or Geymonat...Fortunately, Pagani gives an
example later on in the article: "flammae" for "flamma" in Aen. 6.300.
Checking Geymonat's apparatus, I find that, sure enough, all of the
_ninth-century_ witnesses collated by Geymonat and Sabbadini read "flammae."
Now, my question: is it reasonable to talk about a "Vulgata Medievale," and if it is, can we assume that the thirteenth- or fourteenth-century Vulgate was more or less the same as the ninth-century Vulgate? (There is, or was, someone on this list who at least knows the answer to the first question.)
-- Before anyone responds: yes, I know that the Jerome's translation of the Bible is frequently referred to as the Vulgate; Pagani is using the term in its broader sense, to refer to "the popular form of a [canonical] text."
----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Aug 07 19:12:07 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 7 Aug 2000 14:54:56 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id LAA11646; Mon, 07 Aug 2000 11:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 21:00:08 +0200 From: Robert Dyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Louise Gluck, "Roman Study" Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [fr]C-NSCPCD (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Accept-Language: en-US,fr,de,el,ru References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Also, thank you. With a little care you can copy most of the book and I found each poem thought-provoking, even if I found the Aeneas/Vergil thought more interesting as one writer "reading" another writer and his character as if they were one, than for any sudden illumination of the Aeneid. I believe there are always many different readings of any great work. I must have had many of the Aeneid during a lifetime reading and teaching it. My "readings" are always more pedestrian, more "scholarly", than those of real writers. Rob Dyer
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Thanks to those of you who provided information on locating the Louise Gluck poem, and the further reference to the poem "The Queen of Carthage". A later reading of "Roman Study" leads me to believe that it may refer more to Octavius than to Aeneas/Vergil. I'd still like to hear some personal reactions to Gluck's work. Another distinction made about a "pedestrian/scholarly" reading rather than the interpretation of a "real writer" is intriguing. Having no deep scholarly background myself, I am drawn to the more oblique and indirect imagination of poets such as Gluck to deepen my enjoyment of Virgil and his time. I do read the scholarly discussions on Mantovano with real pleasure, but I can't contribute in a meaningful way to them. More to my taste are works such as the novel "Augustus" by John Williams, which won the National Book Award in the 70's. There are probably many inaccuracies in works such as this, but as I struggle to translate passages in the Aeneid, that imaginative fictional leap can be a quite satisfying aside. I hope that Mantovano will still welcome sideline spectators like me.
Helen Conrad wrote:
Do you have a publisher, ISBN for this book? HCOB
> From: "Jim O'Hara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 20:52:27 +0800 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Louise Gluck, "Roman Study" > >> At 09:55 PM 7/30/00 -0400, david connor wrote: >>> There's a fine new poem by Louise Gluck entitled "Roman Study" that makes >> some >>> subtle points about Virgil and I'd be curious to hear some reactions to >> it. It >>> can be read at the Barnes & Noble website under her name. >> >> David, do you have a more precise URL for this poem? I checked the B&N web >> site and didn't find anything. >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. > > > "Roman Study" is a poem in the 1999 volume "Vita Nova", which bn has > at > http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=4EV9G > X12V5&mscssid=CAALERVWD3S92GSH001PQU6AVWPAC34D&isbn=0880016345 > > ((note that a long url like this might get split up funny by your > e-mail; delete any extra spaces. or just go to bn and search for > Gluck and Vita Nova; then click on "read a chapter")) > > The site actually lets you read part of the book, including the poem > mentioned, and another called THE QUEEN OF CARTHAGE: > > http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=4EV9G > X12V5&mscssid=CAALERVWD3S92GSH001PQU6AVWPAC34D&isbn=0880016345&display > only=chapter > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > >
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Aug 10 11:50:02 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:36:55 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA17183; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 08:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 08:40:33 -0700 (PDT) From: d buck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Louise Gluck, "Roman Study" Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
About the poem "Roman Study" --
I can go as far as "faintly predictable" in describing the Greek tragedies, but not to "routine" as Louise Gluck does. Even "faintly predictable" is not clear. Is Ms Gluck referring to tragic plots? Is she aware that the audiences of Greek tragedies knew all these familiar stories in advance?
If some Greek tragedies are austere (ruled by fate with no exceptions, involving little happiness, and usually ending badly), the comedies certainly are not. I don't see that Gluck can make a general comment about "the Greeks," referring to the whole people or even to all Greek drama. Nor would I call Homer austere. In the Iliad, the scene between Hector and Astyanax is not emotionally austere, nor are the scenes of Paris and Helen after Paris is rescued, nor Priam's visit to Hector's body; nor many scenes in the Odyssey, particularly involving Odysseus and Penelope.
Gluck's contrast of Greece against Rome has some truth, especially the "new species of thought." Also "amaterial world heretofore hardly dignified" makes a good point -- that life did not end with the Greeks, or Egyptians, or Shelley, or whoever.
I recently read a brilliant if over-jargonized article contrasting the un-worldly nature of Greek portrait sculpture against Roman portrait sculpture of the 1st century CE -- serene and perfect Greeks vs truly human Romans of the Civil War era, sculpted with warts, drooping eyelids, creases on their faces et al (The article is by Sheldon Nodelman from 1975, "How to Read a Roman Portrait.")
The French novelist Michel Tournier made a similar comment in "The Fourth Wise Man." A character contrasts the too-perfect Greeks with his own need for Christian sympathy.
As to Gluck's poem itself --
Gluck's phrases "examine these responses" and "scope and trajectory" are thuddingly un-poetic.
In fact, though I agree with most of Gluck's ideas in this poem, it seems to me as a poem to have the defect of most modern poetry -- it has no form one could call poetic. It has neither rhyme nor meter, but apparently is considered poetry because its lines end at places they wouldn't end in prose. This is playing tennis without a net, as Robert Frost said.
===== Don Buck Latin teacher Thornton Academy Saco ME 04072
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Aug 10 13:34:52 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:20:03 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id KAA03606; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:23:02 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Louise Gluck, "Roman Study" In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, d buck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
I recently read a brilliant if over-jargonized article contrasting the un-worldly nature of Greek portrait sculpture against Roman portrait sculpture of the 1st century CE -- serene and perfect Greeks vs truly human Romans of the Civil War era, sculpted with warts, drooping eyelids, creases on their faces et al (The article is by Sheldon Nodelman from 1975, "How to Read a Roman Portrait.")
Or was it that the Republican élite thought that these ugly heads gave them character, gravitas--even when as in one famous case stuck on top of an idealized Greek-athlete body? I seem to recall that a workshop full of such heads was found some years ago, suggesting they were ready made, not portrait to the life but idealization of a different kind.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ
tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work)
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Aug 18 08:26:19 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:57:21 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id LAA18482; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:43:42 -0700 (PDT) From: d buck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Louise Gluck, "Roman Study" Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mr Holford-Strevens -- Yes, you're right about the
idealization found in Roman portraiture. I meant to
say that the Romans valued other ideals than the
physical perfection and emotional distance which the
Greeks valued. Roman idealization reflected the
reality of the hard and tumultuous life of the Roman
aristocracy in the 1st century BC -- all the events up
to and including the Civil War itself. Their funerary
sculpture showed men in and past middle age who had --
we suppose -- maintained gravitas under stress, as
opposed to Greek busts which seem to reflect timeless
ness.
Do you have a citation for the article you mentioned?
--- Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, d buck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >I recently read a brilliant if over-jargonized article >contrasting the un-worldly nature of Greek portrait >sculpture against Roman portrait sculpture of the 1st >century CE -- serene and perfect Greeks vs truly human >Romans of the Civil War era, sculpted with warts, >drooping eyelids, creases on their faces et al (The >article is by Sheldon Nodelman from 1975, "How to Read >a Roman Portrait.")
Or was it that the Republican élite thought that these ugly heads gave them character, gravitas--even when as in one famous case stuck on top of an idealized Greek-athlete body? I seem to recall that a workshop full of such heads was found some years ago, suggesting they were ready made, not portrait to the life but idealization of a different kind.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
Leofranc Holford-Strevens*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone
Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME
scire hoc sciat alter?
OX2 6EJ
tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work)
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===== Don Buck Latin teacher Thornton Academy Saco ME 04072
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In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, d buck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
Do you have a citation for the article you mentioned?
Sorry, these were simply things I had assimilated from secondary sources on Roman art.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ
tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work)
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Aug 22 11:21:06 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:07:44 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA22260; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 07:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:20:29 +0100 (BST) From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sorry for three months + delay: I do (at last) have a reply which I'd like
to put to you all and in different form to my political philosophy class
next year. I think V seriously hopes that the difference between the
real final phase of the Civil Wars and the earlier phases, which had only
seemed to be final, was to be made by him, or by the intellectual circle
to which he belonged. This time there had not only been a military
victory but a victory in the realm of ideas, which is in the end more
conclusive. The most important statements of V's view of himself seem to
me to come in Georgics III and IV, later in Aeneid VI, first in the
passage where he appears as founder of the great temple with 'Caesar in
the midst'. Secondly we have the story of Aristaeus. Aristaeus shares V's
own work of ensuring continuity in the hive of bees. He may not be very
impressive as a person but he has sources of information which mean that
it is he - it has to be someone, perhaps - who binds Proteus, the symbol
of a wildly changing political order, and brings life from death through the
all but impossible process of bougonia. I think that this means that in
the chaos followng the older Caesar's death a small, determined
intellectual group, originally little more than a bunch of students, emerged with V as its principal leader and Horace as a latecoming
adherent. They decided that the only way to save the Western
world was to make the younger Caesar (would anyone like to join me in a
society to abolish the misleading name 'Octavian'?) into a king and to get
the absurd stories of descent from the royal house of Troy taken in
some sense seriously. And they did it: without them there could have been
no Augustan regime. V has been regarded as a creature of Augustus but in
a sense Augustus was made and created by V and the 'golden age' writers
who backed him. The analogy I would want to suggest to the political
philosophy students comes from the twentieth century dictators,
particularly Stalin who, as I've read in Richard Overy's history of the
Soviet Union, regarded Augustus as a role model. We have been led to
think of Stalin's intellectual supporters as his creatures or as 'useful
idiots': but in some senses their decision to save the world through
revolutionary extremism made, created and sustained Stalin. V, I'd think,
regarded his work both as a necessity and as an enormity. Hence the way
he first uses the Marcellus episode in Aeneid VI to merge his own
narrator's voice with that of his prophetic character Anchises and
maintains this merger(as has been shown in previous Mantovano
correspondence) in the description of the Gates of Sleep. Then he has
Anchises/V send Aeneas/Augustus through the Gate of Falsa Insomnia,
disturbing fantasies. There is an element of optimism here: a patriotic
and humane intellectual class, drawing on the deep resources of
philosophy, poetry and science, has saved civilisation. Whilst their
ideology stands, the old forces of discord and violence are bound,
like Proteus. But there is also an element of shock and fear: terrible things had to be done by the forces of good, not only on the
battlefields but in the manipulation of people's minds. What if the same
resources fell into less responsible hands? Hence the persistent concern
and fear in the Aeneid about false prophecy.
On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Jim O'Hara wrote:
>V is poet whose whole work is written against the background of one of >history's longest civil wars. Those wars, more than their counterparts in >England and America, had the nightmarish quality of seeming to be over on several occasions when they really had plenty of vicious life in them.
>[much good stuff omitted]
> The total effect, >I would say, is of a hint of optimism and reconciliation which is hard won >and precarious, not in the least facile. ... the outcome of the Civil Wars is >celebrated amid sympathy for the losers.
Great post. But how do the two parts of it I've cited above go together? If Romans knew civil was had broken out again and again after apparent settlements, what reason was there for thinking that the future would be any different? What impact would the death of Marcellus, highlighted so movingly in Aeneid 6, have on thinking about the future? What hope for the future would there be after the (apparently--looks deceive) frail Augustus? Doesn't the hero of the Aeneid keep thinking his troubles are over, only to have Italy or peace then seem further away? What does it mean that the Fourth Eclogue was published either 2-3 or possibly even as much as 5-6 years after the Treaty of Brundisium? What really is the difference between precarious optimism and pessimism?
Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
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Harvard Classics Prose and Poetry Recital Page http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~classics/poetry_and_prose/poetry.html
Some of you may already know about this, but it was news to me, so I'll pass it along. Thomas Jenkins (formerly of Harvard, now at Rice University) has recorded Wendell Clausen and Richard Thomas reading a number of passages from the Aeneid in Latin: 1.195f., 1.586f., 4.331f., 6.124f., 6.185f., 6.450f. (read by Clausen) and 12.926 ad finem (read by Thomas). Readings from other Roman authors include Ovid and Statius (by Kathleen Coleman), Cicero and Catullus (by Richard Tarrant), and assorted Greeky things (by Gregory Nagy and Carolyn Higbie).
----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Aug 23 11:08:52 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:31:52 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA11607; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 07:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 16:22:32 +0200 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (P.Pearson) Subject: VIRGIL: Vergil's last wish Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.3 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
It has been said that Vergil's last wish was that the unfinished Aeneid should be burnt and that it is sad that it wasn't. It is unfair as the poetry does give some lovely hexameters and it does enable you to learn lots about Greek mythology and Homer without having to grasp Greek. It is also perhaps not kind to say that the Aeneid was a sad attempt to grovel to an insecure dictator.
Perhaps it is true but it is better than Cicero's very famous hexameter which only served to blow his OWN trumpet:
O fortunatam natam me consule Romam
Let's face it, it also scans but it is not pretty.
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P.Pearson schrieb:
It has been said that Vergil's last wish was that the unfinished Aeneid should be burnt and that it is sad that it wasn't. It is unfair as the poetry does give some lovely hexameters and it does enable you to learn lots about Greek mythology and Homer without having to grasp Greek.
maybe it has often been discussed in this mailinglist, but I have a lot of problems with a lot of Aeneis-verses, problems I mean with the anti-neoteric gravity ("Schwere", nicht unbedingt "Wuerde") of some parts. for example the prooemium and the first 33 verses:
after the prooemium there are only three sentences: "urbs antiqua fuit..." till "fovetque" the first, then from "progeniem..." till "sic volvere parcas" the second, the third beginning with "id metuens..." ending with "omnia circum", a closing sententia behind: "tantae molis erat Romanam condere gentem". this last pretty (the third) sentence has only 10 lines, (with the closing sententia 11), and of course it is full of enjembements (wich seem to be more a lack of poetic flight than a good figure of style): line 25 to 26, 26 to 27, 29 to 30; and see these parentheseis (wich seem to be more a lack of fluid syntax than a transparent architecture) - parentheseis! - they disrupt the tale in verse 12, from 16 to 17, from 25 to 28 (according the climax-law of growing members), new beginning with "his accensa..." (after this scratch on the ground of an overlasting past). lucky Sisyphos! is it irony, that after this net of nods, this cyclopic wall, after this heavy and molest try to answer the former question "tantaene animis caelestibus irae?" Maro gives his last sigh: "tantae molis erat..."?
grusz, hansz
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In Eclogue 5, vv. 74-75, Virgil writes:
haec tibi semper erunt, et cum sollemnia uota reddemus Nymphis, et cum lustrabimus agros.
What rite, and what time of the year, is meant by _sollemnia uota reddemus Nymphis_? Are these identifiable? Both Clausen and Lee stay silent on this.
Thank you, Neven
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In Eclogue 5, vv. 74-75, Virgil writes:
haec tibi semper erunt, et cum sollemnia uota reddemus Nymphis, et cum lustrabimus agros.
What rite, and what time of the year, is meant by _sollemnia uota reddemus Nymphis_? Are these identifiable? Both Clausen and Lee stay silent on this.
Cf. Coleman ad loc.:
"There was no distinct festival of nymphs in the Roman calendar. They no doubt shared in the festivals of associated deities, e.g. Faunus at the February Lupercalia or Flora at the April Floralia, as well as having a place of honour in such celebrations as the Fontanalia in October. But "vota ... reddemus" probably implies a more local cult, related to their patronage of a particular grove or spring."
++++++++++++++++++++++ Gregory Hays Dept. of Classics, University of Virginia 401 Cabell Hall P.O. Box 400788 Charlottesville, VA 22904 USA
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~bgh2n/home.html
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Here I am, still reading the Fifth Eclogue... (thanks to Gregory Hays for sharing with us Coleman's speculation). Verses E. 5,81-84 are:
(Mopsus) Quae tibi, quae tali reddam pro carmine dona? Nam neque me tantum uenientis sibilus Austri nec percussa iuuant fluctu tam litora, nec quae saxosas inter decurrunt flumina uallis.
I read that the Romans, like the Greaks, were no romantics when it came to nature; they found no pleasure in majestetic wildernesses, in the forces of Nature unleashed. Are Mopsus' words, then, better read as a compliment, or as a sly insult? (Guy Lee in the introduction to E. 5 alerted me to this: _An elder shepherd, meeting a younger, pays him a compliment but only succeeds in giving offence.) Or, is it appropriate to think of Lucretius and the great _suaue mari magno_ picture?
Neven
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Please for the love of all that is holy, stop sending me these Virgil
messages. I don't know who is in charge of this or what but please stop!
-Sincerely disgruntled, Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Wed, 30 Aug 2000, Neven Jovanovic wrote:
Here I am, still reading the Fifth Eclogue... (thanks to Gregory Hays for sharing with us Coleman's speculation). Verses E. 5,81-84 are:
(Mopsus) Quae tibi, quae tali reddam pro carmine dona? Nam neque me tantum uenientis sibilus Austri nec percussa iuuant fluctu tam litora, nec quae saxosas inter decurrunt flumina uallis.
I read that the Romans, like the Greaks, were no romantics when it came to nature; they found no pleasure in majestetic wildernesses, in the forces of Nature unleashed. Are Mopsus' words, then, better read as a compliment, or as a sly insult? (Guy Lee in the introduction to E. 5 alerted me to this: _An elder shepherd, meeting a younger, pays him a compliment but only succeeds in giving offence.) Or, is it appropriate to think of Lucretius and the great _suaue mari magno_ picture?
Neven
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Sep 04 09:57:33 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 3 Sep 2000 15:20:38 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA28330; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 12:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:11:31 +0100 (BST) From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: E. 5,74-75: what holiday? In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The quoted clause of Coleman's comment implies that the two 'shepherd
poets' of this passage have a more Sicilian or Arcadian than Roman guise,
there being no appropriate 'sollemnia vota' which form a part of Roman
religion strictly defined. Coleman then goes on to link the phrase 'cum
lustrabimus agros' with the Roman festival of Ambarvalia. The two clauses
remind us of the characteristic ambiguity of everything in the Bucolic
poems. Why do these two shepherds feel able to claim that their local
festival will be changed to give an important place to the murdered Daphnis, who here seems to recall the murdered Caesar? (In IX 46-7 he has
clearly survived Caesar.) Presumably they stand for public opinion, their
ambiguous status enabling them to reprsent both the inner Roman and outer
Italian worlds. Outwardly, they stand for mass pro-Caesar sympathy and
implicit mass support for his heir, the young Caesar, V's political
leader. But V reminds us that public opinion itself always has elements of
ambiguity about it. - Martin Hughes
On Sat, 26 Aug 2000, Gregory Hays wrote:
>In Eclogue 5, vv. 74-75, Virgil writes: > >haec tibi semper erunt, et cum sollemnia uota >reddemus Nymphis, et cum lustrabimus agros. > >What rite, and what time of the year, is meant by _sollemnia uota reddemus >Nymphis_? Are these identifiable? Both Clausen and Lee stay silent on this.
Cf. Coleman ad loc.:
"There was no distinct festival of nymphs in the Roman calendar. They no doubt shared in the festivals of associated deities, e.g. Faunus at the February Lupercalia or Flora at the April Floralia, as well as having a place of honour in such celebrations as the Fontanalia in October. But "vota ... reddemus" probably implies a more local cult, related to their patronage of a particular grove or spring."
++++++++++++++++++++++ Gregory Hays Dept. of Classics, University of Virginia 401 Cabell Hall P.O. Box 400788 Charlottesville, VA 22904 USA
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~bgh2n/home.html
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Sep 08 10:45:45 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 8 Sep 2000 09:52:06 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id GAA18453; Fri, 08 Sep 2000 06:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 08:46:39 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: call for papers: reception history Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Just a reminder that it's not too late to submit abstracts for papers on
the reception history of classical literature in the middle ages, to be
delivered at the 34th International Congress on Medieval Studies at
Kalamazoo, Michigan (3-6 May 2001). Details at
http://virgil.org/kalamazoo/
My fax number, if you're running late, is 708-585-7483 (plus the appropriate international codes if you're dialing from outside of North America).
----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://geoffreychaucer.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Chaucer: An Annotated Guide to Online Resources ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Sep 12 14:46:59 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:32:52 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id LAA25806; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:14:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:12:59 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgilian glosses In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I see no-one has been able to say anything in answer to Umberto Tacchieri's question; the edition of 'Bernardus Silvestris' by Julian Ward Jones and Elizabeth Frances Jones (University of Nebraska Press, 1977), 30 cites only William apart from an echo Coluccio Salutati, De _laboribus Herculis_, 4. 4. (Bernard gives a different account of Misenus, building on Fulgentius' _Virgiliana continentia_, when he comes to Misenus' funeral in the narrative.) Certainly it's not Servius or Ti. Claudius Donatus in the now recovered commentary on _Aen._ 6. 1-157. Perhaps reposting the query below will jog someone's memory.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
Learned listmembers,
Commenting on 3M12, Boethius' poem on Orpheus and Euridice, William of Conches writes his probably most notorious gloss, where he lists the possible meanings of the underworld journey:
Infernum uocauerunt philosphi hanc sublunarem regionem quia inferior est pars mundi et plena miseriae et doloris. Ad hanc sunt diuersi descensus: Naturalis, scilicet cum anima corpori coniungitur, non quod de caelestibus, ubi ante esset, descenderit, sed quia sunt causa quare corpori adiungatur. Vel descensus animae est coniunctio eiusdem cum corpore, quia tunc scilicet a propria dignitate descendit dum est subdita passionibus corporis. Alius descensus vitiosus est qui bipertitus est: alter enim fit per magicam artem, alter per alia vitia. Per magicam artem, cum aliquis sacrificando daemonibus eis loquitur. Unde Aeneas, antequam ad inferos descenderet, Misenum sepeliuit, quia, ut magica arte uentura cognosceret eum daemonibus sacrificauit. Per alia uitia fit dum aliquis totam intentionem in temporalibus ponit. Est alius descensus uirtuosus cum scilicet aliquis sapiens ad cognitionem temporalium descendit, et cum parum uel nichil in eis boni inuenerit, ab eorum amore concupiscentiam extrahit. Hoc modo ad inferna descendere uirtus est, sed duobus predictis modis per uitia, quarto modo natura.( 128-146 ed. Lodi Nauta)
This gloss passed then in Bernard Silvestris'(?) commentary on _Aeneid_6.
My question is: can anybody recall whether a similar gloss is present in
Servius' or any other Virgilian commentaries (none of which I have at hand at
the moment) or is this systematization original with William? (is any
commentary on-line anywhere?) In particular, does his description of the
*natural descent*, the original union of soul and body, ring any of your
erudite bells? The way W. words this first case seems to indicate that he is
dialoguing with one or more other commentaries, but I am not sure where to
look for this.
Many thanks in advance,
Umberto Taccheri [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ
tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work)
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Sep 13 08:19:46 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:33:48 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id OAA24244; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:26:31 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgilian glosses In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 24 Jul 2000, Umberto Tacchieri wrote:
hand atMy question is: can anybody recall whether a similar gloss is present in Servius' or any other Virgilian commentaries (none of which I have at
the moment) or is this systematization original with William? (is any
commentary on-line anywhere?) In particular, does his description of the
*natural descent*, the original union of soul and body, ring any of your
erudite bells? The way W. words this first case seems to indicate that he is
dialoguing with one or more other commentaries, but I am not sure where to
look for this.
Thanks to LH-S for reminding us about this. To my knowledge (and I
obviously speak under correction), the typology of descensus naturalis,
descensus uitiosus, descensus uirtuosus, and descensus artificialis is
original to William, _insofar as he discusses the four types in one place
and gives them names_. William, though, did not invent the types: he
inferred each of them from scattered remarks in Servius and Macrobius.
Consider, for instance, what Servius has to say about Aen. 6.127, "noctes
atque dies patet atri ianua ditis":
NOCTES ATQUE DIES PATET ATRI IANVA DITIS id est omni tempore homines in fata concedunt. et hoc poetice: nam Lucretius ex maiore parte et alii integre docent inferorum regna ne posse quidem esse: nam locum ipsorum quem possumus dicere, cum sub terris esse dicantur antipodes? in media vero terra eos esse nec soliditas patitur, nec kentron terrae: quae si in medio mundi est, tanta eius esse profunditas non potest, ut medio sui habeat inferos, in quibus esse dicitur Tartarus, de quo legitur bis patet in praeceps tantum tenditque sub umbras, quantus ad aetherium caeli suspectus Olympum. ergo hanc terram in qua vivimus inferos esse voluerunt, quia est omnium circulorum infima, planetarum scilicet septem, Saturni, Iovis, Martis, Solis, Veneris, Mercurii, Lunae, et duorum magnorum. hinc est quod habemus et novies Styx interfusa coercet : nam novem circulis cingitur terra. ergo omnia quae de inferis finguntur, suis locis hic esse conprobabimus. quod autem dicit 'patet atri ianua Ditis sed revocare gradum superasque evadere ad auras hoc opus hic labor est' aut poetice dictum est aut secundum philosophorum altam scientiam, qui deprehenderunt bene viventium animas ad superiores circulos, id est ad originem suam redire: quod dat Lucanus Pompeio ut vidit quanta sub nocte iaceret nostra dies: male viventium vero diutius in his permorari corporibus permutatione diversa et esse apud inferos semper.
Servius doesn't call it by that name, but this is obviously the descensus
naturalis: hell is this world, and the descensus ad inferos is what happens
when the soul "falls" into a body; cf. his remarks on Aen. 6.578 and 724. I
am citing, by the way, from the online text of Servius at
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0053
The rest of the types can be derived in a similar fashion. See further:
- Pierre Courcelle, "Le corps-tombeau," Revue des e/tudes anciennes 68 (1966): 101-22 and "Interpe/tations ne/o-platonisantes du livre VI de l'Ene/ide" in Recherches sur la tradition platonicienne: sept expose/s, ed. W. K. C. Guthrie, Entretiens sur l'antiquite/ classique 3 (Geneva: Fondation Hardt, 1957). -- Good on Macrobius.
- Craig Kallendorf, In Praise of Aeneas: Virgil and Epideictic Rhetoric in the Early Italian Renaissance (Hanover: Univ. Press of New England, 1989), index, s.v. "descensus ad inferos."
- Michael Murrin, The Allegorical Epic: Essays in Its Rise and Decline (Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1980), ch. 2. -- Good on Servius.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Sep 14 11:41:42 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:16:52 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id SAA22966; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:30:24 -0400 (EDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: Re: VIRGIL Digest V1 #108 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 119 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I request that you take me off your mailing list ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Oct 01 12:10:43 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 1 Oct 2000 11:35:48 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA10567; Sun, 01 Oct 2000 08:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 10:38:06 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Virgilmurder.org Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Unverified) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Some of you will be interested in this:
J.-Y. Maleuvre http://virgilmurder.org ----------------------- Maleuvre has been arguing for at least 34 articles and books that Virgil's poetry is rife with covert criticism of the princeps, and that Augustus eventually killed him for it. This web site summarizes those arguments. Even if you're not convinced (I'm not), readers who like the idea of a subversive Virgil (and a nefarious princeps) will find lots of grist for their mills here. Among Maleuvre's more interesting claims: Augustus forged Virgil's Culex, along with several lines from the Aeneid!
I'll be curious to see how other members of the group respond to this. (The site is a small one, by the way: one page, with bibliography), in English and French.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://geoffreychaucer.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Chaucer: An Annotated Guide to Online Resources ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 02 12:56:59 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:42:56 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA17517; Mon, 02 Oct 2000 07:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 10:52:09 -0400 (EDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Virgilmurder.org Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 120 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
About Virgilmurder.org, David Wilson-Okamura writes:
<< Even if you're not convinced (I'm not), readers who like the idea of a subversive Virgil (and a nefarious princeps) will find lots of grist for their mills here. >>
Intriguing page, sir; thanks much for sharing it. It strikes me (caveat: non-specialist, indeed non-scholar, here) that murder allegations aside, there's always been something strange about (1) Vergil's instructions to burn the Aeneid, and (2) His rhapsodic words about this particular princeps (especially given his Epicurean background, early criticisms in the Eclogues, and such; and am I the only one who found Vergil-in-the-Imperial-purple odd, in the Georgics?).
Very much worth a look, anyway (especially while waiting for my betters to shoot it down!).
Quick Question Two, *al*most on topic: can anyone recommend an unusually faithful English translation of Dante's Divine Comedy? I'm doing some work on apparently contradictory political and philosophical elements therein, and along with feebly banging my head against the original, I'd love to have a solid translation to compare. (Scholarly and popularly-available versions both welcome; offlist, if preferred, is just fine, too.)
Thanks in advance! -- AJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 04 16:21:59 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 4 Oct 2000 16:21:47 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA12631; Wed, 04 Oct 2000 13:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 22:12:50 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-abo-2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.150] claimed to be amyris.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Salvete omnes, David Wilson-Okamura has kindly informed me that he cared to distribute a description of my newly built website: http://virgilmurder.org I am well aware that the statements contained in my pages will come up with strong resistance, and it is quite normal. The (apparently extravagant) contention that Vergil went murdered by his good friend Augustus has already brought upon my head the wrath of some traditional scholars, particularly in France and England. Others were more measured, or even enthusiastic. Who is right? who is wrong? I propose we open here a sincere debate about the whole topic, taking, for instance, the questions in the order they appear in the website, i.e. beginning from COINCIDENCES. Adsit nobis Vergilius. J.-Y. Maleuvre ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Oct 06 09:16:27 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:11:31 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id OAA12610; Thu, 05 Oct 2000 14:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 16:03:48 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 15:28:12 -0700 From: "Damien Nelis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
well, he was a MASS-murderer. dpn
----------
<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:21:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Farouk F. Grewing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
The idea of Augustus' murdering Virgil is, I should think, anything but new (to put it mildly). FG.
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<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:28:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Farouk F. Grewing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Well, there should be some hidden ref. in Horsfall's Companion which I don't have at hand at the moment. And check Broch's novel about V. I am pretty sure that Leofranc Holford-Strevens knows a lot to tell about all these things; and he is surely the best to deal with it very carefully. Anyway, I don't care at all about phantastic issues of that kind and of forcing one's own phantasies and wishes upon V. He has suffered from all this a good deal in the past, I think. Despite all this, I indeed enjoy reading about it (which, however, does not affect my understanding of any of V.'s poetry). =20
----------------------------------------------------- Farouk Grewing Dept. of the Classics Harvard University home: 204, Boylston Hall 343 Harvard St. (apt. 2R) Cambridge, MA 02138 Cambridge, MA 02138 USA =20 =09 tel.: ... (617) 495-4027 home: (617) 868-4320 fax: ... (617) 496-6720
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, MALEUVRE wrote:
Please, tell us more about "Paul is dead". J.-Y.M.
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Care Circulus:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes, in part:
<< David Wilson-Okamura has kindly informed me that he cared to distribute a description of my newly built website: http://virgilmurder.org >>
Indeed he did, and you've already had one follow-up post, from my pathetically-amateur self, the most relevant portion of which ran:
<< Intriguing page, sir; thanks much for sharing it. It strikes me (caveat: non-specialist, indeed non-scholar, here) that murder allegations aside, there's always been something strange about (1) Vergil's instructions to burn the Aeneid, and (2) His rhapsodic words about this particular princeps (especially given his Epicurean background, early criticisms in the Eclogues, and such; and am I the only one who found Vergil-in-the-Imperial-purple odd, in the Georgics?). >>
Normally I'd wait for a reply, but -- given the current slower pace of the list -- it occurs to me that perhaps a bit of follow-up might help explain my own puzzlement. I emphasized how far outside my learning* I was with that query, but it was a serious query; if, say, "Tyrio" (Georgica III:17) is definitely *not* the *imperial* purple, or Vergil's Epicurean commune days are a long-exploded myth, or list-members have difficulty questioning his genuine loyalty to Augustus...well, I came here hoping to learn, am painfully polite, and will sincerely appreciate whatever comments folks have.
To expand just a little, my question had to do with the apparent strangeness of Vergil's relation to Augustus: that he began as an Epicurean, criticized the land-expropriation policies in the Eclogues, then ended up, (a) so apparently rhapsodic about Augustus, in (b) such (so I thought) strange language, etc. (Naturally this question, like the virgilmurder.org webpage itself, questions the surviving "biography.") Beyond that, the "Burn the *Aeneid* if I die" instruction really does seem odd, at least to my writerly self: sounds, that is, like an instruction you leave for *political* reasons ("If I don't tone that down, I could get my friends/family/etc. in big trouble") rather than aesthetic ones ("If I don't give it a final polish, I'd rather it be lost forever": not something you usually hear from writers; but then again, if he was thinking of reshuffling whole books, maybe that's not so hard to believe). Put together with oddnesses about Horace (e.g. the closeness of his own death to Maecenas's, as Horace himself predicted in Ode II:17), Ovid's exile, and suchlike stuff (some emphasized on the virgilmurder.org page)...well, I expect you've long since seen the point.
In short, this thread -- however controversial -- strikes me as just the sort of thing that could make a Vergil-focused list, well, *interesting*, without the "But I'd be putting my professional rep on the line for a stupid argument" concerns so often seen on some of the, errr, stuffier lists. If nobody's interested, that's fine, too, but I thought I'd make a final try, anyhow. No hard feelings either way.
(And, btw, many thanks again for the offlist reply to my Dante query; I'm beginning my research with one of the suggested sets tonight. :) )
-- AJ
*c.v. (or "ne Aesopum quidem trivit"): B.A. cum laude in English Lit, UCLA 1977, with some grad study thereafter; expertise in literary criticism meant much sidework in classics, as well as work in Greek tragedy with a focus on Aeschylus. That said, most of my classics work is as an autodidact and in recent years (of late this has concentrated on the development of pastoral: e.g. Theokritos through Vergil to, among others, Sidney). My Latin and Greek may just possibly exceed Shakespeare's, though prolly not by much; for an American novelist in the not-quite-21st century, that may (alas!) not be so very shabby. ;)
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Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
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<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:21:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Farouk F. Grewing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
The idea of Augustus' murdering Virgil is, I should think, anything but new (to put it mildly). FG.
-----------------------------------------------------
Farouk Grewing
Dept. of the Classics
Harvard University home:
204, Boylston Hall 343 Harvard St. (apt. 2R)
Cambridge, MA 02138 Cambridge, MA 02138
USA
tel.: ... (617) 495-4027 home: (617) 868-4320
fax: ... (617) 496-6720
Vorwahl von Deutschland aus: 001-617- ... ---------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 04 15:50:27 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:44:39 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA11227; Thu, 05 Oct 2000 07:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 10:50:04 -0400 From: "Heslin, Dr. Tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-type: text/plain X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host [207.3.228.8] claimed to be sev2minnow.severnschool.com Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
This is very interesting, but is anyone else reminded of the "Paul is dead" stuff from the fall of 1969?
-----Original Message----- From: David Wilson-Okamura [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 9:14 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:21:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Farouk F. Grewing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
The idea of Augustus' murdering Virgil is, I should think, anything but new (to put it mildly). FG.
-----------------------------------------------------
Farouk Grewing
Dept. of the Classics
Harvard University home:
204, Boylston Hall 343 Harvard St. (apt. 2R)
Cambridge, MA 02138 Cambridge, MA 02138
USA
tel.: ... (617) 495-4027 home: (617) 868-4320
fax: ... (617) 496-6720
Vorwahl von Deutschland aus: 001-617- ... ---------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 04 15:50:30 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 5 Oct 2000 11:00:23 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA14308; Thu, 05 Oct 2000 08:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 17:09:13 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-abo-4.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.153] claimed to be antholoma.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Interesting indeed! Please give us the references. J.-Y.M. ----------
De : David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Date : Jeu 5 oct 2000 15:14
<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:21:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Farouk F. Grewing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
The idea of Augustus' murdering Virgil is, I should think, anything but new (to put it mildly). FG.
-----------------------------------------------------
Farouk Grewing
Dept. of the Classics
Harvard University home:
204, Boylston Hall 343 Harvard St. (apt. 2R)
Cambridge, MA 02138 Cambridge, MA 02138
USA
tel.: ... (617) 495-4027 home: (617) 868-4320 fax: ... (617) 496-6720
Vorwahl von Deutschland aus: 001-617- ... ---------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
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Please, tell us more about "Paul is dead". J.-Y.M. ----------
De : "Heslin, Dr. Tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Objet : RE: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Date : Jeu 5 oct 2000 16:50
This is very interesting, but is anyone else reminded of the "Paul is dead" stuff from the fall of 1969?
-----Original Message----- From: David Wilson-Okamura [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 9:14 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:21:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Farouk F. Grewing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
The idea of Augustus' murdering Virgil is, I should think, anything but new (to put it mildly). FG.
-----------------------------------------------------
Farouk Grewing
Dept. of the Classics
Harvard University home:
204, Boylston Hall 343 Harvard St. (apt. 2R)
Cambridge, MA 02138 Cambridge, MA 02138
USA
tel.: ... (617) 495-4027 home: (617) 868-4320 fax: ... (617) 496-6720
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MALEUVRE schrieb:
Please, tell us more about "Paul is dead". J.-Y.M.
Paul, walking barefoot over the Abbey Road: cover of "Abbey Road". It was an omen, showing his death in the next time (he is still alive, as we know, although not as much productive as in the last Beatles-time).
Isn't the "Vergil-murder" more the kind of "who killed JFK"-stuff?
---------- >De : "Heslin, Dr. Tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >À : "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Objet : RE: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder >Date : Jeu 5 oct 2000 16:50 >
>This is very interesting, but is anyone else reminded of the "Paul is
>dead" stuff from the fall of 1969?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David Wilson-Okamura [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 9:14 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
>
>
><< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
>
>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:21:03 -0400 (EDT)
>From: "Farouk F. Grewing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
>
>
>The idea of Augustus' murdering Virgil is, I should think, anything but
>new (to put it mildly).
>FG.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------
>Farouk Grewing
>Dept. of the Classics
>Harvard University home:
>204, Boylston Hall 343 Harvard St. (apt. 2R)
>Cambridge, MA 02138 Cambridge, MA 02138
>USA > >tel.: ... (617) 495-4027 home: (617) 868-4320
>fax: ... (617) 496-6720
>
>Vorwahl von Deutschland aus: 001-617- ...
>----------------------------------------------------
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:52:09 EDT Subject: Re: Virgilmurder.org
Quick Question Two, *al*most on topic: can anyone recommend an unusually faithful English translation of Dante's Divine Comedy? I'm doing some work on apparently contradictory political and philosophical elements therein, and along with feebly banging my head against the original, I'd love to have a solid translation to compare. (Scholarly and popularly-available versions both welcome; offlist, if preferred, is just fine, too.)
A recent unfavorable NYTimes review (July) of the most recently published Dante translation took as its model of accessibility, momentum, and accuracy the earlier translation by Allen Mandelbaum, which has always been my preference as well. The Bantam editions of his translation are not only inexpensive but have the original on facing pages, making the comparison easy.
David Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Sorry, I did not get your first post. I am happy to see that the sheer idea of the assassination of Virgil by the
emperor does not hurt you. Yes, we all had more or less the intuition
before, but it remained subconscious. Indeed, as revolting as is this crime, every Vergilian should be eased to
know that the poet was a hero of human freedom, and not the vile flatterer
he seemed to be. Two remarks. You wrote:
if he was thinking of reshuffling whole books, maybe that's not
so hard to believeBiographers say that he only wanted to ameliorate Book 3. The assertion is
absurd: three years of travelling in order to correct a book nearly perfect,
and that could as well be corrected at home!
About Horace¹ Ode II, 17, I proposed (in La Revue des Etudes Anciennes,
XCIII, 1991. Unfortunately, it is in French. The translated title woulf be:
A problem critics seem to have neglected: who is speaking in Horace¹s Odes?
Odes II, 14 and II, 17 analysed as examples) to put it on the lips of
Augustus derisively imitating Horace¹s own words in the first Epode. So,
Horace announces his impending death through the voice of his virtual
murderer. That is genius. Eventually, the emperor took him at his word. That
is genius, too, in a way! Regards.
J.-Y.M.
----------
De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Date : Jeu 5 oct 2000 14:44
Care Circulus:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes, in part:
<< David Wilson-Okamura has kindly informed me that he cared to distribute a description of my newly built website: http://virgilmurder.org >>
Indeed he did, and you've already had one follow-up post, from my pathetically-amateur self, the most relevant portion of which ran:
<< Intriguing page, sir; thanks much for sharing it. It strikes me (caveat: non-specialist, indeed non-scholar, here) that murder allegations aside, there's always been something strange about (1) Vergil's instructions to burn the Aeneid, and (2) His rhapsodic words about this particular princeps (especially given his Epicurean background, early criticisms in the Eclogues, and such; and am I the only one who found Vergil-in-the-Imperial-purple odd, in the Georgics?). >>
Normally I'd wait for a reply, but -- given the current slower pace of the list -- it occurs to me that perhaps a bit of follow-up might help explain my own puzzlement. I emphasized how far outside my learning* I was with that query, but it was a serious query; if, say, "Tyrio" (Georgica III:17) is definitely *not* the *imperial* purple, or Vergil's Epicurean commune days are a long-exploded myth, or list-members have difficulty questioning his genuine loyalty to Augustus...well, I came here hoping to learn, am painfully polite, and will sincerely appreciate whatever comments folks have.
To expand just a little, my question had to do with the apparent strangeness of Vergil's relation to Augustus: that he began as an Epicurean, criticized the land-expropriation policies in the Eclogues, then ended up, (a) so apparently rhapsodic about Augustus, in (b) such (so I thought) strange language, etc. (Naturally this question, like the virgilmurder.org webpage itself, questions the surviving "biography.") Beyond that, the "Burn the *Aeneid* if I die" instruction really does seem odd, at least to my writerly self: sounds, that is, like an instruction you leave for *political* reasons ("If I don't tone that down, I could get my friends/family/etc. in big trouble") rather than aesthetic ones ("If I don't give it a final polish, I'd rather it be lost forever": not something you usually hear from writers; but then again, if he was thinking of reshuffling whole books, maybe that's not so hard to believe). Put together with oddnesses about Horace (e.g. the closeness of his own death to Maecenas's, as Horace himself predicted in Ode II:17), Ovid's exile, and suchlike stuff (some emphasized on the virgilmurder.org page)...well, I expect you've long since seen the point.
In short, this thread -- however controversial -- strikes me as just the sort of thing that could make a Vergil-focused list, well, *interesting*, without the "But I'd be putting my professional rep on the line for a stupid argument" concerns so often seen on some of the, errr, stuffier lists. If nobody's interested, that's fine, too, but I thought I'd make a final try, anyhow. No hard feelings either way.
(And, btw, many thanks again for the offlist reply to my Dante query; I'm beginning my research with one of the suggested sets tonight. :) )
-- AJ
*c.v. (or "ne Aesopum quidem trivit"): B.A. cum laude in English Lit, UCLA 1977, with some grad study thereafter; expertise in literary criticism meant much sidework in classics, as well as work in Greek tragedy with a focus on Aeschylus. That said, most of my classics work is as an autodidact and in recent years (of late this has concentrated on the development of pastoral: e.g. Theokritos through Vergil to, among others, Sidney). My Latin and Greek may just possibly exceed Shakespeare's, though prolly not by much; for an American novelist in the not-quite-21st century, that may (alas!) not be so very shabby. ;)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 04 15:51:22 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 5 Oct 2000 14:42:27 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id LAA16479; Thu, 05 Oct 2000 11:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 13:14:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Christian Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: harper.uchicago.edu: cwhess owned process doing -bs Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I will preface this by saying that I am a great admirer of the Georgics
and the Eclogues, and that the ideas, while incorrect, are interesting to
say the least.
I have serious issue with your proposition that the Aeneid is a 'nearly
perfect' work. Stylistically, it falls far below the mark of Vergil's
previous works; as a whole, while presenting a vaguely interesting
narrative, it is unwieldy, and often (and I doubt this is simply a quick
nod to the epic style) repetitive and cumbersome, beyond
..............................................................................
Debian: The Choice of a GNU Generation - http://www.debian.org
On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, MALEUVRE wrote:
Sorry, I did not get your first post. I am happy to see that the sheer idea of the assassination of Virgil by the
emperor does not hurt you. Yes, we all had more or less the intuition
before, but it remained subconscious. Indeed, as revolting as is this crime, every Vergilian should be eased to
know that the poet was a hero of human freedom, and not the vile flatterer
he seemed to be. Two remarks. You wrote:
if he was thinking of reshuffling whole books, maybe that's not >so hard to believe
Biographers say that he only wanted to ameliorate Book 3. The assertion is
absurd: three years of travelling in order to correct a book nearly perfect,
and that could as well be corrected at home!
About Horace¹ Ode II, 17, I proposed (in La Revue des Etudes Anciennes,
XCIII, 1991. Unfortunately, it is in French. The translated title woulf be:
A problem critics seem to have neglected: who is speaking in Horace¹s Odes?
Odes II, 14 and II, 17 analysed as examples) to put it on the lips of
Augustus derisively imitating Horace¹s own words in the first Epode. So,
Horace announces his impending death through the voice of his virtual
murderer. That is genius. Eventually, the emperor took him at his word. That
is genius, too, in a way! Regards.
J.-Y.M.
---------- >De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] >À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Objet : Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder >Date : Jeu 5 oct 2000 14:44 >
>Care Circulus:
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes, in part:
>
><< David Wilson-Okamura has kindly informed me that he cared to distribute a >description of my newly built website: http://virgilmurder.org >>
>
>Indeed he did, and you've already had one follow-up post, from my >pathetically-amateur self, the most relevant portion of which ran:
>
><< Intriguing page, sir; thanks much for sharing it. It strikes me (caveat: >non-specialist, indeed non-scholar, here) that murder allegations aside, >there's always been something strange about (1) Vergil's instructions to burn >the Aeneid, and (2) His rhapsodic words about this particular princeps >(especially given his Epicurean background, early criticisms in the Eclogues, >and such; and am I the only one who found Vergil-in-the-Imperial-purple odd, >in the Georgics?). >>
>
>Normally I'd wait for a reply, but -- given the current slower pace of the >list -- it occurs to me that perhaps a bit of follow-up might help explain my >own puzzlement. I emphasized how far outside my learning* I was with that >query, but it was a serious query; if, say, "Tyrio" (Georgica III:17) is >definitely *not* the *imperial* purple, or Vergil's Epicurean commune days >are a long-exploded myth, or list-members have difficulty questioning his >genuine loyalty to Augustus...well, I came here hoping to learn, am painfully >polite, and will sincerely appreciate whatever comments folks have.
> >To expand just a little, my question had to do with the apparent strangeness >of Vergil's relation to Augustus: that he began as an Epicurean, criticized >the land-expropriation policies in the Eclogues, then ended up, (a) so >apparently rhapsodic about Augustus, in (b) such (so I thought) strange >language, etc. (Naturally this question, like the virgilmurder.org webpage >itself, questions the surviving "biography.") Beyond that, the "Burn the >*Aeneid* if I die" instruction really does seem odd, at least to my writerly >self: sounds, that is, like an instruction you leave for *political* reasons >("If I don't tone that down, I could get my friends/family/etc. in big >trouble") rather than aesthetic ones ("If I don't give it a final polish, I'd >rather it be lost forever": not something you usually hear from writers; but >then again, if he was thinking of reshuffling whole books, maybe that's not >so hard to believe). Put together with oddnesses about Horace (e.g. the >closeness of his own death to Maecenas's, as Horace himself predicted in Ode >II:17), Ovid's exile, and suchlike stuff (some emphasized on the >virgilmurder.org page)...well, I expect you've long since seen the point.
>
>In short, this thread -- however controversial -- strikes me as just the sort >of thing that could make a Vergil-focused list, well, *interesting*, without >the "But I'd be putting my professional rep on the line for a stupid >argument" concerns so often seen on some of the, errr, stuffier lists. If >nobody's interested, that's fine, too, but I thought I'd make a final try, >anyhow. No hard feelings either way.
>
>(And, btw, many thanks again for the offlist reply to my Dante query; I'm >beginning my research with one of the suggested sets tonight. :) )
>
>-- AJ
>
>*c.v. (or "ne Aesopum quidem trivit"): B.A. cum laude in English Lit, UCLA >1977, with some grad study thereafter; expertise in literary criticism meant >much sidework in classics, as well as work in Greek tragedy with a focus on >Aeschylus. That said, most of my classics work is as an autodidact and in >recent years (of late this has concentrated on the development of pastoral: >e.g. Theokritos through Vergil to, among others, Sidney). My Latin and Greek >may just possibly exceed Shakespeare's, though prolly not by much; for an >American novelist in the not-quite-21st century, that may (alas!) not be so >very shabby. ;)
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
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my bad; meant to hit the postpone, not send, button. I don't mean this as flamebait, but in short, it is not productive to view the Aeneid as a 'perfect', unflawed work. It has serious flaws, and if we know anything about Vergil's editorial practice, chances are he would have rewritten and rephrased much of it, far beyond a few minor touch-ups.
It is not inconceivable that in the midst of such a work, he would have fled the artistic climate of Rome, in which literary circles were generally not concerned with epic, as his topic was less than fashionable.
..............................................................................
Debian: The Choice of a GNU Generation - http://www.debian.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 04 16:06:09 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 5 Oct 2000 15:59:40 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA01413; Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 22:06:48 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-abo-1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.122] claimed to be villosa.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sorry, I did not get your first post. I am happy to see that the sheer idea of the assassination of Virgil by the
emperor does not hurt you. Yes, we all had more or less the intuition
before, but it remained subconscious. Indeed, as revolting as is this crime, every Vergilian should be eased to
know that the poet was a hero of human freedom, and not the vile flatterer
he seemed to be. Two remarks. You wrote:
if he was thinking of reshuffling whole books, maybe that's not so hard to
believe.
Biographers say that he only wanted to ameliorate Book 3. Is not the
assertion absurd ? three years of travelling in order to correct a book
nearly perfect, and which could as well be corrected at home!
About Horace¹ Ode 2.17, I proposed (in La Revue des Etudes Anciennes,
XCIII, 1991. Unfortunately, it is in French. The translated title would be:
A problem critics seem to have neglected: who is speaking in Horace¹s Odes?
Odes 2. 14 and 2. 17 analysed as examples) to put it on the lips of Augustus
derisively imitating Horace¹s own words in the first Epode. So, Horace
announces his impending death through the voice of his virtual murderer.
That is genius. Eventually, the emperor took him at his word. That is
genius, too, in a way! Regards.
J.-Y.M.
----------
De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Date : Jeu 5 oct 2000 14:44
Care Circulus:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes, in part:
<< David Wilson-Okamura has kindly informed me that he cared to distribute a description of my newly built website: http://virgilmurder.org >>
Indeed he did, and you've already had one follow-up post, from my pathetically-amateur self, the most relevant portion of which ran:
<< Intriguing page, sir; thanks much for sharing it. It strikes me (caveat: non-specialist, indeed non-scholar, here) that murder allegations aside, there's always been something strange about (1) Vergil's instructions to burn the Aeneid, and (2) His rhapsodic words about this particular princeps (especially given his Epicurean background, early criticisms in the Eclogues, and such; and am I the only one who found Vergil-in-the-Imperial-purple odd, in the Georgics?). >>
Normally I'd wait for a reply, but -- given the current slower pace of the list -- it occurs to me that perhaps a bit of follow-up might help explain my own puzzlement. I emphasized how far outside my learning* I was with that query, but it was a serious query; if, say, "Tyrio" (Georgica III:17) is definitely *not* the *imperial* purple, or Vergil's Epicurean commune days are a long-exploded myth, or list-members have difficulty questioning his genuine loyalty to Augustus...well, I came here hoping to learn, am painfully polite, and will sincerely appreciate whatever comments folks have.
To expand just a little, my question had to do with the apparent strangeness of Vergil's relation to Augustus: that he began as an Epicurean, criticized the land-expropriation policies in the Eclogues, then ended up, (a) so apparently rhapsodic about Augustus, in (b) such (so I thought) strange language, etc. (Naturally this question, like the virgilmurder.org webpage itself, questions the surviving "biography.") Beyond that, the "Burn the *Aeneid* if I die" instruction really does seem odd, at least to my writerly self: sounds, that is, like an instruction you leave for *political* reasons ("If I don't tone that down, I could get my friends/family/etc. in big trouble") rather than aesthetic ones ("If I don't give it a final polish, I'd rather it be lost forever": not something you usually hear from writers; but then again, if he was thinking of reshuffling whole books, maybe that's not so hard to believe). Put together with oddnesses about Horace (e.g. the closeness of his own death to Maecenas's, as Horace himself predicted in Ode II:17), Ovid's exile, and suchlike stuff (some emphasized on the virgilmurder.org page)...well, I expect you've long since seen the point.
In short, this thread -- however controversial -- strikes me as just the sort of thing that could make a Vergil-focused list, well, *interesting*, without the "But I'd be putting my professional rep on the line for a stupid argument" concerns so often seen on some of the, errr, stuffier lists. If nobody's interested, that's fine, too, but I thought I'd make a final try, anyhow. No hard feelings either way.
(And, btw, many thanks again for the offlist reply to my Dante query; I'm beginning my research with one of the suggested sets tonight. :) )
-- AJ
*c.v. (or "ne Aesopum quidem trivit"): B.A. cum laude in English Lit, UCLA 1977, with some grad study thereafter; expertise in literary criticism meant much sidework in classics, as well as work in Greek tragedy with a focus on Aeschylus. That said, most of my classics work is as an autodidact and in recent years (of late this has concentrated on the development of pastoral: e.g. Theokritos through Vergil to, among others, Sidney). My Latin and Greek may just possibly exceed Shakespeare's, though prolly not by much; for an American novelist in the not-quite-21st century, that may (alas!) not be so very shabby. ;)
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MALEUVRE schrieb:Please, tell us more about "Paul is dead". J.-Y.M.
Paul, walking barefoot over the Abbey Road: cover of "Abbey Road". It was an omen, showing his death in the next time (he is still alive, as we know, although not as much productive as in the last Beatles-time).
Isn't the "Vergil-murder" more the kind of "who killed JFK"-stuff?
I believe the argument suggested is more like "Nixon killed JFK, and Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King, and James Dean, Buddy Holly, Jimy Hendrix, Janice Joplin and Jim Morrison."
Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara
Professor of Classical Studies Classical Studies Dept.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University
860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146
Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html
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Thank you, Jim, it is certainly enlightening for our discussion. J.-Y.M. ----------
De : "Jim O'Hara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Date : Jeu 5 oct 2000 22:08
MALEUVRE schrieb:Please, tell us more about "Paul is dead". J.-Y.M.
Paul, walking barefoot over the Abbey Road: cover of "Abbey Road". It was an omen, showing his death in the next time (he is still alive, as we know, although not as much productive as in the last Beatles-time).
Isn't the "Vergil-murder" more the kind of "who killed JFK"-stuff?
I believe the argument suggested is more like "Nixon killed JFK, and Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King, and James Dean, Buddy Holly, Jimy Hendrix, Janice Joplin and Jim Morrison."
Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara
Professor of Classical Studies Classical Studies Dept.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University
860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146
Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html
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Please, show us those would-be serious flaws of the Aeneid. Thank you. J.-Y.M. ----------
De : Christian Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: VIRGIL: dante translation Date : Jeu 5 oct 2000 20:20
my bad; meant to hit the postpone, not send, button. I don't mean this as flamebait, but in short, it is not productive to view the Aeneid as a 'perfect', unflawed work. It has serious flaws, and if we know anything about Vergil's editorial practice, chances are he would have rewritten and rephrased much of it, far beyond a few minor touch-ups.
It is not inconceivable that in the midst of such a work, he would have fled the artistic climate of Rome, in which literary circles were generally not concerned with epic, as his topic was less than fashionable.
..............................................................................
Debian: The Choice of a GNU Generation - http://www.debian.org
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Oct 06 09:16:26 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:31:41 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA04266; Thu, 05 Oct 2000 13:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 22:19:55 +0200 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) Subject: Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.3 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jim O'Hara schrieb:
>Isn't the "Vergil-murder" more the kind of "who killed JFK"-stuff? >
I believe the argument suggested is more like "Nixon killed JFK, and Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King, and James Dean, Buddy Holly, Jimy Hendrix, Janice Joplin and Jim Morrison."
don't forget John Lennon. Nixon shot him for the verse: "No shorthaired yellowbellied son of tricky dicky 's gonna mother hubbard soft soap me with such a pocket of hope, money for dope, money for rope" (it is far away, that I heared this verse, maybe 25 years, so there might be some mistakes, but it sounded a little bit like this)
grusz, hansz
Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara
Professor of Classical Studies Classical Studies Dept.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University
860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146
Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html
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You are perfectly right. Actually, I meant: the Aeneid is a nearly perfect
work provided you perceive its subtext. I personally have tried to trace
this anti-Aeneid in books 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 (see my Bibliog.), but these papers
are no more than attempts to show the way.
Cras ingens iterabimus aequor. J.-Y.M. ----------
De : Christian Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Date : Jeu 5 oct 2000 20:14
I will preface this by saying that I am a great admirer of the Georgics
and the Eclogues, and that the ideas, while incorrect, are interesting to
say the least.
I have serious issue with your proposition that the Aeneid is a 'nearly
perfect' work. Stylistically, it falls far below the mark of Vergil's
previous works; as a whole, while presenting a vaguely interesting
narrative, it is unwieldy, and often (and I doubt this is simply a quick
nod to the epic style) repetitive and cumbersome, beyond
..............................................................................
Debian: The Choice of a GNU Generation - http://www.debian.org
On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, MALEUVRE wrote:
Sorry, I did not get your first post. I am happy to see that the sheer idea of the assassination of Virgil by the
emperor does not hurt you. Yes, we all had more or less the intuition
before, but it remained subconscious. Indeed, as revolting as is this crime, every Vergilian should be eased to
know that the poet was a hero of human freedom, and not the vile flatterer
he seemed to be. Two remarks. You wrote:
if he was thinking of reshuffling whole books, maybe that's not >so hard to believe
Biographers say that he only wanted to ameliorate Book 3. The assertion is
absurd: three years of travelling in order to correct a book nearly perfect,
and that could as well be corrected at home!
About Horace¹ Ode II, 17, I proposed (in La Revue des Etudes Anciennes,
XCIII, 1991. Unfortunately, it is in French. The translated title woulf be:
A problem critics seem to have neglected: who is speaking in Horace¹s Odes?
Odes II, 14 and II, 17 analysed as examples) to put it on the lips of
Augustus derisively imitating Horace¹s own words in the first Epode. So,
Horace announces his impending death through the voice of his virtual
murderer. That is genius. Eventually, the emperor took him at his word. That
is genius, too, in a way! Regards.
J.-Y.M.
---------- >De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] >À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Objet : Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder >Date : Jeu 5 oct 2000 14:44 >
>Care Circulus:
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes, in part:
>
><< David Wilson-Okamura has kindly informed me that he cared to distribute a >description of my newly built website: http://virgilmurder.org >>
>
>Indeed he did, and you've already had one follow-up post, from my >pathetically-amateur self, the most relevant portion of which ran:
>
><< Intriguing page, sir; thanks much for sharing it. It strikes me (caveat: >non-specialist, indeed non-scholar, here) that murder allegations aside, >there's always been something strange about (1) Vergil's instructions to burn >the Aeneid, and (2) His rhapsodic words about this particular princeps >(especially given his Epicurean background, early criticisms in the Eclogues, >and such; and am I the only one who found Vergil-in-the-Imperial-purple odd, >in the Georgics?). >>
>
>Normally I'd wait for a reply, but -- given the current slower pace of the >list -- it occurs to me that perhaps a bit of follow-up might help explain my >own puzzlement. I emphasized how far outside my learning* I was with that >query, but it was a serious query; if, say, "Tyrio" (Georgica III:17) is >definitely *not* the *imperial* purple, or Vergil's Epicurean commune days >are a long-exploded myth, or list-members have difficulty questioning his >genuine loyalty to Augustus...well, I came here hoping to learn, am painfully >polite, and will sincerely appreciate whatever comments folks have.
> >To expand just a little, my question had to do with the apparent strangeness >of Vergil's relation to Augustus: that he began as an Epicurean, criticized >the land-expropriation policies in the Eclogues, then ended up, (a) so >apparently rhapsodic about Augustus, in (b) such (so I thought) strange >language, etc. (Naturally this question, like the virgilmurder.org webpage >itself, questions the surviving "biography.") Beyond that, the "Burn the >*Aeneid* if I die" instruction really does seem odd, at least to my writerly >self: sounds, that is, like an instruction you leave for *political* reasons >("If I don't tone that down, I could get my friends/family/etc. in big >trouble") rather than aesthetic ones ("If I don't give it a final polish, I'd >rather it be lost forever": not something you usually hear from writers; but >then again, if he was thinking of reshuffling whole books, maybe that's not >so hard to believe). Put together with oddnesses about Horace (e.g. the >closeness of his own death to Maecenas's, as Horace himself predicted in Ode >II:17), Ovid's exile, and suchlike stuff (some emphasized on the >virgilmurder.org page)...well, I expect you've long since seen the point.
>
>In short, this thread -- however controversial -- strikes me as just the sort >of thing that could make a Vergil-focused list, well, *interesting*, without >the "But I'd be putting my professional rep on the line for a stupid >argument" concerns so often seen on some of the, errr, stuffier lists. If >nobody's interested, that's fine, too, but I thought I'd make a final try, >anyhow. No hard feelings either way.
>
>(And, btw, many thanks again for the offlist reply to my Dante query; I'm >beginning my research with one of the suggested sets tonight. :) )
>
>-- AJ
>
>*c.v. (or "ne Aesopum quidem trivit"): B.A. cum laude in English Lit, UCLA >1977, with some grad study thereafter; expertise in literary criticism meant >much sidework in classics, as well as work in Greek tragedy with a focus on >Aeschylus. That said, most of my classics work is as an autodidact and in >recent years (of late this has concentrated on the development of pastoral: >e.g. Theokritos through Vergil to, among others, Sidney). My Latin and Greek >may just possibly exceed Shakespeare's, though prolly not by much; for an >American novelist in the not-quite-21st century, that may (alas!) not be so >very shabby. ;)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Oct 06 09:16:28 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:51:08 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id PAA25391; Thu, 05 Oct 2000 15:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 18:30:52 -0400 (EDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: dante translation Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 120 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host imo-r10.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.10] claimed to be imo-r10.mail.aol.com Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<< A recent unfavorable NYTimes review (July) of the most recently published Dante translation took as its model of accessibility, momentum, and accuracy the earlier translation by Allen Mandelbaum, which has always been my preference as well. The Bantam editions of his translation are not only inexpensive but have the original on facing pages, making the comparison easy.
David Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>
The very one I bought. Thank you so much! -- AJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Oct 06 09:16:30 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 5 Oct 2000 23:29:06 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id UAA26652; Thu, 05 Oct 2000 20:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 23:35:27 -0400 (EDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: dante translation Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Unknown Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Mandelbaum translation may offer advantages of literal accuracy, but if you compare it passage-for-passage with the Ciardi translation, you can have no doubt about which one is more beautiful. In reading poetry, I will take beauty over precision every time.
George Brunelle ,[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Oct 06 09:16:32 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 6 Oct 2000 04:36:12 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id BAA24244; Fri, 06 Oct 2000 01:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 10:28:43 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-abo-4.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.153] claimed to be antholoma.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank you, Farouk, for mentioning *Der Tod des Vergil*, but there is no
Vergil's murder in this novel (and I do not write novels). So, I am still
waiting for your references. In case you could not find any, I can help.
J.-Y.M. ----------
De : David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Date : Mer 4 oct 2000 23:05
<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:28:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Farouk F. Grewing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Well, there should be some hidden ref. in Horsfall's Companion which I don't have at hand at the moment. And check Broch's novel about V. I am pretty sure that Leofranc Holford-Strevens knows a lot to tell about all these things; and he is surely the best to deal with it very carefully. Anyway, I don't care at all about phantastic issues of that kind and of forcing one's own phantasies and wishes upon V. He has suffered from all this a good deal in the past, I think. Despite all this, I indeed enjoy reading about it (which, however, does not affect my understanding of any of V.'s poetry). =20
----------------------------------------------------- Farouk Grewing Dept. of the Classics Harvard University home: 204, Boylston Hall 343 Harvard St. (apt. 2R) Cambridge, MA 02138 Cambridge, MA 02138 USA =20 =09 tel.: ... (617) 495-4027 home: (617) 868-4320 fax: ... (617) 496-6720
Vorwahl von Deutschland aus: 001-617- ... ----------------------------------------------------
On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, MALEUVRE wrote:
Please, tell us more about "Paul is dead". J.-Y.M.----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Oct 06 09:52:04 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 6 Oct 2000 09:31:24 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id GAA19930; Fri, 06 Oct 2000 06:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 09:13:47 -0400 From: "Heslin, Dr. Tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host [207.3.228.8] claimed to be sev2minnow.severnschool.com Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
There are thousands (yes,thousands) fo websites dealing with the "greatly exaggerated" reports of Paul McCartney's death (he was a Beatle - I realiza that some of you are too young to have memories of the pervasive impact of the Beatles on pop culture---they were BIG). Someone getting an advanced degree in music came up with the thesis that Paul McCartney had been killed in an auto accident. There was a considerable body of evidence upon which the work was based. (I was 14, so I didn't write down the author's name) That whole fall, the fall during which the Beatles released the album Abbey Road (an album is 12 inch, 2 sided vinyl disc, comparable to a CD, the radio, television, and newspapers ran stories about McCartney's conjectured death. Paul has proven otherwise. The evidence, however, remains out there, and can be found on thousands of websites. I'll hot-button several of them here:
http://www.geocities.com:0080/SunsetStrip/3674/pid.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ct/scrmgdasys/index.html
http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~tolsky/paul/
http://bobcat.bbn.com/bobcatftp/pub/beatles/welcome/pid
These are the top 4 websites that Hotbot spit out at me.
-----Original Message----- From: MALEUVRE [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 11:09 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
Interesting indeed! Please give us the references. J.-Y.M. ----------
De : David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Date : Jeu 5 oct 2000 15:14
<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:21:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Farouk F. Grewing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
The idea of Augustus' murdering Virgil is, I should think, anything but new (to put it mildly). FG.
-----------------------------------------------------
Farouk Grewing
Dept. of the Classics
Harvard University home:
204, Boylston Hall 343 Harvard St. (apt. 2R)
Cambridge, MA 02138 Cambridge, MA 02138
USA
tel.: ... (617) 495-4027 home: (617) 868-4320 fax: ... (617) 496-6720
Vorwahl von Deutschland aus: 001-617- ... ---------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
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A thousand thanks. I learn a lot. Of course, I love the Beatles. But I prefer Vergil. Please, let us return to the thread. Heu fugit interea, fugit irreparabile tempus. Cheers. J.-Y.M. ----------
De : "Heslin, Dr. Tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Objet : RE: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Date : Ven 6 oct 2000 15:13
There are thousands (yes,thousands) fo websites dealing with the "greatly exaggerated" reports of Paul McCartney's death (he was a Beatle - I realiza that some of you are too young to have memories of the pervasive impact of the Beatles on pop culture---they were BIG). Someone getting an advanced degree in music came up with the thesis that Paul McCartney had been killed in an auto accident. There was a considerable body of evidence upon which the work was based. (I was 14, so I didn't write down the author's name) That whole fall, the fall during which the Beatles released the album Abbey Road (an album is 12 inch, 2 sided vinyl disc, comparable to a CD, the radio, television, and newspapers ran stories about McCartney's conjectured death. Paul has proven otherwise. The evidence, however, remains out there, and can be found on thousands of websites. I'll hot-button several of them here:
http://www.geocities.com:0080/SunsetStrip/3674/pid.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ct/scrmgdasys/index.html
http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~tolsky/paul/
http://bobcat.bbn.com/bobcatftp/pub/beatles/welcome/pid
These are the top 4 websites that Hotbot spit out at me.
-----Original Message----- From: MALEUVRE [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 11:09 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
Interesting indeed! Please give us the references. J.-Y.M. ----------De : David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Date : Jeu 5 oct 2000 15:14
<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:21:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Farouk F. Grewing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
The idea of Augustus' murdering Virgil is, I should think, anything but new (to put it mildly). FG.
-----------------------------------------------------
Farouk Grewing
Dept. of the Classics
Harvard University home:
204, Boylston Hall 343 Harvard St. (apt. 2R)
Cambridge, MA 02138 Cambridge, MA 02138
USA
tel.: ... (617) 495-4027 home: (617) 868-4320 fax: ... (617) 496-6720
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Oct 07 13:17:06 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:52:38 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA23766; Fri, 06 Oct 2000 13:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:51:21 -0400 From: Philip Thibodeau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To J.-Y.M. et al.
It's always useful to have new ideas to play with, but it seems to me that the most this one has going for it is that it cannot be proved to be completely false - hardly a ringing recommendation. Well, you might say, there is also the specific evidence that supports it. So let's take a look at some of that evidence.
Here is what you say right at the beginning of the website:
"Indeed, there was a substantial incompatibility between Julius Caesar's heir, an ambitious man without any scruples, and the priest of Apollo nicknamed "the Virgin", between the demagogue and corrupt townsman, and the countryman convinced that Rome's regeneration necessitated a return to ancestral values and a submission to divine and cosmic laws. And we must not forget that Vergil was a victim of the expropriations decided by Mark Antony and Octavian. So it would be quite logical to find him in the opposition, even though he was forced to keep subservient appearances. Hence the hypothesis that he used in his works a system of double language, under which cover he could preserve his freedom of speech without bringing immediate punishment upon himself."
1. It seems like a bad idea to try to derive Vergil's opposition to Octavian on a priori grounds. The same fallacy occurs here as when you try to predict, say, the age at which a particular individual will die by using actuarial statistics: what holds true of a group (and may even have some basis in science) tells us almost nothing useful about a particular individual. Such an argument based on 'logic' carries no weight, and cannot be used to eliminate the traditional evidence which shows that relations between Vergil and Octavian were cordial. Perhaps their friendship blew hot-and-cold, and was cautious and courtier-like, as Horace's friendship with Octavian seems to have been. The bottom line is, it makes them out to be amici, not opponents.
2. But let us grant the hypothesis, for sake of argument, and suppose that Vergil did more than harbor doubts about the future of the Augustan settlement: let us suppose that he sincerely disliked and opposed Augustus. The Aeneid voices no blatant opposition, so one must have recourse to the idea that the dissent was hidden under 'double language' (a nice phrase).
Clearly there is lot of work to be done: we will have to go over everything in the epic with a fine-toothed comb, looking for traces of double meaning. It certainly helps that that is what lots of scholars have been doing with the poem for the past few decades! But even scholars who use this method tend to assume something like the following about the poem and its ambiguities:
1. Vergil had doubts about the origins and the future of the Augustan project, doubts which derive from his sense of the fragility and complexity of human things - but which derive too from a deep-seated hope for the success of the project, and a fear of its possible failure.
Yet what you would argue is something very different:
2. Vergil had such great doubts about the origins and the future of Augustan project that he became wholeheartedly opposed to it.
Interpretation 2. is very strong, so you clearly need some good evidence for it. Accordingly, you cite from Donatus' vita a passage which you read as a sign that Vergil ruffled some rather distinguished feathers:
"We know by chance that Vipsanius Agrippa accused Virgil and Maecenas of cacozelia latens (Suet.-Don., Vit. Verg. 185-8), a bizarre expression that scholars have traditionally understood as a reference to a sort of stylistic affectedness, as if Agrippa, a military man, could plausibly worry about literary criticism."
But contrary to how you spin it, the Donatus clearly shows that Agrippa was indeed criticizing Vergil on stylistic grounds:
"Marcus Vipsanius complained that [Virgil] was put under the yoke by Maecenas in order to invent a new kind of affectation, neither bombastic nor exotic, but constructed of common words, and therefore obscure."
Apparently Agrippa didn't like something in Vergil's neoteric style; it probably didn't help that Vergil was an associate of dandy Maecenas. But there's nothing here about codes or 'double language'; nothing about masked subversion of anything in the political realm. And so, no smoking gun, and no reason why we should prefer interpretation 2. to interpretation 1.
Philip Thibodeau The University of Georgia
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In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:28:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Farouk F. Grewing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Well, there should be some hidden ref. in Horsfall's Companion which I don't have at hand at the moment. And check Broch's novel about V. I am pretty sure that Leofranc Holford-Strevens knows a lot to tell about all these things; and he is surely the best to deal with it very carefully.
Jim O'Hara really said the needful: not even paid-up Nixon-haters could
believe in all those undetected murders, or what a brilliant operator he
must have been, and why did he lose his touch in 1973-4?
If Augustus was going to rub out his opponents, what did any of
these poets matter compared with recalcitrants in the senatorial class
like the great lawyer Labeo, who resisted any measure for which there
was no Republican authority and who smothered a proposal for the
senators to keep watch by turns outside Augustus' bedroom by saying 'I
should be no good, I snore?' Suppose for an instant that Vergil and the
rest really thought Augustus was a bad thing, and he knew it, and bumped
them all off but let Ovid get away: precisely who did all the dirty
work? At least under Nero we know the name of Lucusta; or was it a
personal service, as when Valentinian III killed Aetius with his own
hands? _Adde quod_ post-Augustan writers would have happily spilt the
beans in the process of praising our present beloved emperor for not
being like that (even, or especially, if he was); and Tacitus would not
have failed to slip it in the mouths of his _prudentes_ at the start of
the Annals. Suetonius, who had read the emperor's letters, and delights
in tittle-tattle about, sex, gambling, and oddities of Latin, might have
been expected to say something; or are we to suppose that the secret was
so well kept that no-one ever suspected it, despite the supposed hints
in the poets from which it has been inferred? Come off it.
On the subject of the faults and imperfections in the Aeneid,
also woven into this thread, in principle, since the poem was left
unfinished, we may suppose that the poet was going to correct the
errors, but critics cannot agree on what they are, except for the half-
lines, however effective they seemed to the Elizabethan and later poets,
were certainly recognized in Antiquity as no more than marks of
incompleteness: not only did nobody imitate them, but by Seneca's day
people were already completing them. Even before then, Hyginus had
pointed out passages in book 6 that the poet would have corrected had he
lived (see Gellius 10. 16); however, other critics have denied that
there was anything wrong. They are:Aen. 6. 365-6
eripe me his, inuicte, malis, aut tu mihi tantum inice, namque potes, portusque require Velinos
since the Phocians fleeing from Harpalus (he means the Phocaeans fleeing from Harpagus, but never mind) had not yet founded Velia.
Aen. 6. 122: 'quid Thesea' among those who had returned from the underworld vs. 6. 617-18 sedet aeternumque sedebit / infelix Theseus.
Aen. 6. 838-40
eruet ille Argos Agamemnoniasque Mycenas, ipsumque Aeaciden, genus armipotentis Achilli, ultos auos Troiae, templa intermerata Mineruae.
It was M'. Curius who defeated Pyrrhus, but L. Mummius who conquered Achaea.
The first objection, on Velia, is bosh: 'Oenotri coluere uiri' long before Aeneas came to Italy (Aen. 1. 532 = 3. 165)--and for what it's worth Velia represents in Latin the Oscan name from which the Greek forms Hyele and Elea were derived. Modern critics such as Norden and Austin are inclined to accept the discrepancy concerning Theseus as legitimate; poets are free touse whichever version of a myth suits them at any given moment.
Modern critics also justify the last passage as referring to L. Paullus' victory over Pyrrhus' soi-disant descendant Perseus of Macedon, Argos and Mycenae being a loose poetic way of saying Greece, itself a loose poetic way of saying Macedon. Indeed, no Roman destroyed either Argos or Mycenae, and we have already had Mummius' triumph over Corinth in the preceding lines, which should rule him out here after a second _ille_; for the two-way synecdoche in which one part of the whole is mentioned when another part is meant, see Housman on Lucan 7. 871, who cites as Vergilian examples 'imbrem' of seawater (_Aen._ 1. 123) and 'Noto' where the wind desired is a northerly (_Aen._ 1. 575).
Another case: the Helen episode. It is almost impossible to accept it as finished Vergil, with its strained expressions and the excessive frequency of elision+et in the fifth sedes of the line; it must be either a rough draft or an imitation. If a rough draft, there eo ipso is incompleteness; if an imitation, what stood in the gap? The resumption 'cum mihi se . . .' cries out for a preceding imperfect, and that is what the episode gives us (talia iactabam et furiata mente ferebar, with one of those ets just mentioned), but without it we have 'ad terram misere aut ignibus aegra dedere', so obviously the end of a sentence.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ
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*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Oct 07 13:17:10 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 7 Oct 2000 10:50:14 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA19265; Sat, 07 Oct 2000 08:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 16:07:34 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: cacozelia (was Vergil's murder) In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Philip Thibodeau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
"We know by chance that Vipsanius Agrippa accused Virgil and Maecenas of cacozelia latens (Suet.-Don., Vit. Verg. 185-8), a bizarre expression that scholars have traditionally understood as a reference to a sort of stylistic affectedness, as if Agrippa, a military man, could plausibly worry about literary criticism."
But contrary to how you spin it, the Donatus clearly shows that Agrippa was indeed criticizing Vergil on stylistic grounds:
"Marcus Vipsanius complained that [Virgil] was put under the yoke by Maecenas in order to invent a new kind of affectation, neither bombastic nor exotic, but constructed of common words, and therefore obscure."
Indeed: cacozelia is a standard Greek literary term for bad taste.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ
tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work)
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Oct 07 13:17:10 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 7 Oct 2000 10:48:59 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA19236; Sat, 07 Oct 2000 08:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 16:07:46 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Vergil the Epicurean (was Vergil's murder) In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Vergil's Epicurean commune days are a long-exploded myth,
Not so: see Marcello Gigante and Mario Capasso, 'Il ritorno di Virgilio a Ercolano', _Studi italiani di filologica classica_, 3rd ser., 7 (1989-90), 3-6: a Herculaneum papyrus directed against the heretical Epicurean Nicasistrates contains the sentence: 'That is what we wish to say about these matters and the slanders in general, Plotius [i.e. Tucca] and Varius and Vergil and Quintilius [these four names in the vocative]; now to Nicasistrates . . '.
("If I don't give it a final polish, I'd rather it be lost forever": not something you usually hear from writers;
Don't you? Haven't other writers destroyed works they don't consider worthy of them?
Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ
tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work)
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To P.T You wrote as a preliminary:
Sorry, I see flaws in this exordium:
It's always useful to have new ideas to play with, but it seems to me that the most this one has going for it is that it cannot be proved to be completely false - hardly a ringing recommendation. Well, you might say, there is also the specific evidence that supports it. So let's take a look at some of that evidence.
-1) ³ideas to play with²: be assured that I don¹t really feel like playing
with such an issue.
-2) ³it cannot be proved to be completely false²: however, was Vergil half
assassinated? By the way, you cannot come and just say: ³excuse me, sir, I
am not able to prove you wrong, but I am sure you are².
-3) ³there is also the specific evidence that...²: not ALSO. First there is
the evidence, which is, I maintain, strong enough to support the charge I
have brought against Augustus.
-4) ³let¹s take a look at some of that evidence²: in fact, you do consider
at all the evidence I produce. Indeed, you examine two points, namely the
probability that Vergil disliked Augustus and the notion of ³cacozelia
latens². On the first point, just be said that I only wanted to show that
the odds are in favour of my theory. About ³cacozelia latens², we may halt
for a while (as Leofranc Holford-Strevens also sent a post on the subject).
Until 1991 (see L¹Antiquité Classique, LX, p. 171-181) this phrase was
interpreted in a purely literary sense, as indicating a sort of affectedness
(See spec. H. D. Jocelyn, ³Vergilius Cacozelus², in Papers of the Liverpool
Latin Seminar, vol. 2 (1979), p. 67-142, and W. Gorler, ³Ex verbis
communibus cacozelia. Die augusteischen klassiker und die griechischen
Theoretiker des klassizismus², in Entretiens sur l¹Antiquité Classique de la
Fondation Hardt, XXV (Geneve, 1979), p. 175-211). But this interpretation is
hardly plausible for several reasons: 1- Vipsanius Agrippa was certainly not a literary critic, and his accusation
against Maecenas and his *henchman* Vergil is likelier to be of a political
nature than of an aesthetical one.
2- What would be the point for a writer of deliberately committing mistakes
against good taste (cf. Quint. Inst. VIII, 3, 55-58: *mala affectatio*), and
that secretly? How could an *affectatio* be concealed?
3- Critics ordinarily explain *communibus verbis* as meaning *usual words*.
But it makes better sense to understand this phrase as *ambigous words*, in
latin *ambages* (see Gell. 12. 9:*vocabula...media et communia ut
significare et capere possent duas inter se res contrarias*). So Vergil,
secretly encouraged by his patron Maecenas, Agrippa¹s enemy, used a double
language in his works. And, of course, that infuriated Agrippa.
When you suppose that I had recourse to this interpretation of ³cacozelia²
out of a lack of evidence for my statements, I am afraid you reverse the
real process. Actually, I first detected subtexts in Virgil, Catullus,
Horace and Ovid, and only afterwards I could understand the meaning of the
charge brought against Virgil by Vipsanius Agrippa. I welcomed that as a
precious test of the general validity of my views.
Hopefully you will too. But if you have precise objections on any of the
actual arguments I have brought forward, please tell me.
P.S.: Well, Donatus is not of my opinion on ³cacozelia². So, let¹s include
him in those scholars who misunderstood the real meaning of the charge. He
may be forgiven for that, since he was absolutely convinced of the
politically correctness of Vergil. And remember, what you call the tradition
is, in the present case, rotten from the root, since it has Augustus at its
origin.
J.-Y.M. ----------
De : "Philip Thibodeau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Objet : Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Date : Ven 6 oct 2000 22:51
To J.-Y.M. et al.
It's always useful to have new ideas to play with, but it seems to me that the most this one has going for it is that it cannot be proved to be completely false - hardly a ringing recommendation. Well, you might say, there is also the specific evidence that supports it. So let's take a look at some of that evidence.
Here is what you say right at the beginning of the website:
"Indeed, there was a substantial incompatibility between Julius Caesar's heir, an ambitious man without any scruples, and the priest of Apollo nicknamed "the Virgin", between the demagogue and corrupt townsman, and the countryman convinced that Rome's regeneration necessitated a return to ancestral values and a submission to divine and cosmic laws. And we must not forget that Vergil was a victim of the expropriations decided by Mark Antony and Octavian. So it would be quite logical to find him in the opposition, even though he was forced to keep subservient appearances. Hence the hypothesis that he used in his works a system of double language, under which cover he could preserve his freedom of speech without bringing immediate punishment upon himself."
1. It seems like a bad idea to try to derive Vergil's opposition to Octavian on a priori grounds. The same fallacy occurs here as when you try to predict, say, the age at which a particular individual will die by using actuarial statistics: what holds true of a group (and may even have some basis in science) tells us almost nothing useful about a particular individual. Such an argument based on 'logic' carries no weight, and cannot be used to eliminate the traditional evidence which shows that relations between Vergil and Octavian were cordial. Perhaps their friendship blew hot-and-cold, and was cautious and courtier-like, as Horace's friendship with Octavian seems to have been. The bottom line is, it makes them out to be amici, not opponents.
2. But let us grant the hypothesis, for sake of argument, and suppose that Vergil did more than harbor doubts about the future of the Augustan settlement: let us suppose that he sincerely disliked and opposed Augustus. The Aeneid voices no blatant opposition, so one must have recourse to the idea that the dissent was hidden under 'double language' (a nice phrase).
Clearly there is lot of work to be done: we will have to go over everything in the epic with a fine-toothed comb, looking for traces of double meaningFrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Oct 07 14:06:02 2000
Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 7 Oct 2000 14:06:20 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id LAA09018; Sat, 07 Oct 2000 11:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 14:22:13 -0400 (EDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil the Epicurean (was Vergil's murder) Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 120 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host imo-r18.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.72] claimed to be imo-r18.mail.aol.com Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Apparently confirming my recollection of Virgil's Epicurean background, Leofranc Holford-Strevens writes:
<< see Marcello Gigante and Mario Capasso, 'Il ritorno di Virgilio a Ercolano', _Studi italiani di filologica classica_, 3rd ser., 7 (1989-90), 3-6: a Herculaneum papyrus directed against the heretical Epicurean Nicasistrates contains the sentence: 'That is what we wish to say about these matters and the slanders in general, Plotius [i.e. Tucca] and Varius and Vergil and Quintilius [these four names in the vocative]; now to Nicasistrates . . '. >>
Thank you very much -- I was beginning to wonder whether I'd ever hear back on the points which most interested me, involving (murder allegations aside) Vergil's apparent change of heart to Augustus over time. Let me add that there's nothing whatever unusual about writers having such changes of heart, particularly where the formerly-disliked monarch becomes a patron.
Regarding those Aeneid instructions:
>("If I don't give it a final polish, I'd >rather it be lost forever": not something you usually hear from writers;
<< Don't you? Haven't other writers destroyed works they don't consider worthy of them? >>
Of one's juvenilia, for example, or failed works in mid-course, surely. I just felt that it'd take some pretty *serious* dissatisfaction before one would dump a lengthy epic, produced in maturity and near completion. Indeed, that's why I added the aside that if he were in fact considering reshuffling whole books within it, that could well be different: that level of dissatisfaction is "pretty serious," okay. :)
Anyway, thanks again for your thoughtful and informative reply! -- AJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Oct 08 16:08:07 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 8 Oct 2000 04:51:08 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id BAA16041; Sun, 08 Oct 2000 01:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 10:57:51 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-abo-1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.122] claimed to be villosa.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To Leofranc Holford-Strevens Was Nixon a murderer? It is not our problem. Why did Augustus choose to rub out poets before (or rather than) lawyers, Vergil rather than Labeo, who can say? But one must not underestimate the importance of poetry in that time. One thing is sure, Augustus was perfectly able to kill Vergil with his own hands (see for instance Suet. *Aug.* 27: he liked to gouge a man¹s eyes with his own hands). Remember he (friendly?) embarked him alive on his own boat, and rendered him dead (*navis quae tibi creditum debes Vergilium, finibus Atticis reddas incolumem precor). Tacitus tells us nothing about Vergil¹s murder. That is certainly regrettable, but fortunately Horace, Ovid, Propertius and ... Augustus himself do, as I have pointed out. Unless you do not agree with my statements on this subject. In this case, please tell me why. As for the would-be faults and imperfections in the Aeneid, you allege: -a) half-lines -b) 3 passages (= 7 lines) attacked by the envious (cf. Gell. 7.6) Hyginus -c) the Helen episode. It would be too long to engage here (later, if you wish) in a thorough discussion on these points. Suffice it to observe with you that *critics cannot agree on what they (sc. these errors) are*. So, these *errors* are not so obvious. Anyway, I suppose you will not contest that the Aeneid is an almost perfect poem, which needed only the ultima manus. My argument is as follows: granted there were some imperfections in the Aeneid, it is precisely because of them that Vergil could not possibly leave for Asia at this moment. Do you embark for a 3 years travel when you have to carefully revise your masterwork before its publication? And that at the risk of dying before this publication and having your poem destroyed (*Burn the Aeneid, my friends, if I do not return!*)? Regards. J.-Y.M. ----------
De : Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Date : Sam 7 oct 2000 17:06
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:28:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Farouk F. Grewing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Well, there should be some hidden ref. in Horsfall's Companion which I don't have at hand at the moment. And check Broch's novel about V. I am pretty sure that Leofranc Holford-Strevens knows a lot to tell about all these things; and he is surely the best to deal with it very carefully.Jim O'Hara really said the needful: not even paid-up Nixon-haters could believe in all those undetected murders, or what a brilliant operator he must have been, and why did he lose his touch in 1973-4? If Augustus was going to rub out his opponents, what did any of these poets matter compared with recalcitrants in the senatorial class like the great lawyer Labeo, who resisted any measure for which there was no Republican authority and who smothered a proposal for the senators to keep watch by turns outside Augustus' bedroom by saying 'I should be no good, I snore?' Suppose for an instant that Vergil and the rest really thought Augustus was a bad thing, and he knew it, and bumped them all off but let Ovid get away: precisely who did all the dirty work? At least under Nero we know the name of Lucusta; or was it a personal service, as when Valentinian III killed Aetius with his own hands? _Adde quod_ post-Augustan writers would have happily spilt the beans in the process of praising our present beloved emperor for not being like that (even, or especially, if he was); and Tacitus would not have failed to slip it in the mouths of his _prudentes_ at the start of the Annals. Suetonius, who had read the emperor's letters, and delights in tittle-tattle about, sex, gambling, and oddities of Latin, might have been expected to say something; or are we to suppose that the secret was so well kept that no-one ever suspected it, despite the supposed hints in the poets from which it has been inferred? Come off it. On the subject of the faults and imperfections in the Aeneid, also woven into this thread, in principle, since the poem was left unfinished, we may suppose that the poet was going to correct the errors, but critics cannot agree on what they are, except for the half- lines, however effective they seemed to the Elizabethan and later poets, were certainly recognized in Antiquity as no more than marks of incompleteness: not only did nobody imitate them, but by Seneca's day people were already completing them. Even before then, Hyginus had pointed out passages in book 6 that the poet would have corrected had he lived (see Gellius 10. 16); however, other critics have denied that there was anything wrong. They are:
Aen. 6. 365-6
eripe me his, inuicte, malis, aut tu mihi tantum inice, namque potes, portusque require Velinos
since the Phocians fleeing from Harpalus (he means the Phocaeans fleeing from Harpagus, but never mind) had not yet founded Velia.
Aen. 6. 122: 'quid Thesea' among those who had returned from the underworld vs. 6. 617-18 sedet aeternumque sedebit / infelix Theseus.
Aen. 6. 838-40
eruet ille Argos Agamemnoniasque Mycenas, ipsumque Aeaciden, genus armipotentis Achilli, ultos auos Troiae, templa intermerata Mineruae.
It was M'. Curius who defeated Pyrrhus, but L. Mummius who conquered Achaea.
The first objection, on Velia, is bosh: 'Oenotri coluere uiri' long before Aeneas came to Italy (Aen. 1. 532 = 3. 165)--and for what it's worth Velia represents in Latin the Oscan name from which the Greek forms Hyele and Elea were derived. Modern critics such as Norden and Austin are inclined to accept the discrepancy concerning Theseus as legitimate; poets are free touse whichever version of a myth suits them at any given moment.
Modern critics also justify the last passage as referring to L. Paullus' victory over Pyrrhus' soi-disant descendant Perseus of Macedon, Argos and Mycenae being a loose poetic way of saying Greece, itself a loose poetic way of saying Macedon. Indeed, no Roman destroyed either Argos or Mycenae, and we have already had Mummius' triumph over Corinth in the preceding lines, which should rule him out here after a second _ille_; for the two-way synecdoche in which one part of the whole is mentioned when another part is meant, see Housman on Lucan 7. 871, who cites as Vergilian examples 'imbrem' of seawater (_Aen._ 1. 123) and 'Noto' where the wind desired is a northerly (_Aen._ 1. 575).
Another case: the Helen episode. It is almost impossible to accept it as finished Vergil, with its strained expressions and the excessive frequency of elision+et in the fifth sedes of the line; it must be either a rough draft or an imitation. If a rough draft, there eo ipso is incompleteness; if an imitation, what stood in the gap? The resumption 'cum mihi se . . .' cries out for a preceding imperfect, and that is what the episode gives us (talia iactabam et furiata mente ferebar, with one of those ets just mentioned), but without it we have 'ad terram misere aut ignibus aegra dedere', so obviously the end of a sentence.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ
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MALEUVRE schrieb:
One thing is sure, Augustus was perfectly able to kill Vergil with his own
hands (see for instance Suet. *Aug.* 27: he liked to gouge a man¹s eyes with
his own hands).
do you really believe Sueton? I have no confidence that Sueton's Klatschgeschichten and Schmäh are always true.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Oct 08 16:08:17 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 8 Oct 2000 07:00:19 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id EAA24923; Sun, 08 Oct 2000 04:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 12:06:59 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, MALEUVRE <Jean- [EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
To Leofranc Holford-Strevens Was Nixon a murderer? It is not our problem. Why did Augustus choose to rub out poets before (or rather than) lawyers, Vergil rather than Labeo, who can say? But one must not underestimate the importance of poetry in that time. One thing is sure, Augustus was perfectly able to kill Vergil with his own hands (see for instance Suet. *Aug.* 27: he liked to gouge a man¹s eyes with his own hands). Remember he (friendly?) embarked him alive on his own boat, and rendered him dead (*navis quae tibi creditum debes Vergilium, finibus Atticis reddas incolumem precor).
The rest of us are content to see in that anything more than an allusion to the inherent dangers of seafaring: ships were caught in storms or foundered on rocks all too often. And so with other
*criticsIt would be too long to engage here (later, if you wish) in a thorough discussion on these points. Suffice it to observe with you that
cannot agree on what they (sc. these errors) are*.
It was my hope, precisely because critics cannot agree, that list-
members would discuss which passages of the Aeneid they felt to betray a
lack of final revision: i.e. apparent oddities not found in the Bucolics
or Georgics (hence not characteristically Vergilian), and not imitated
by later poets (hence not marks of an advancing taste).
Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ
tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work)
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 09 08:27:16 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 9 Oct 2000 03:53:50 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id AAA21441; Mon, 09 Oct 2000 00:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 10:02:07 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-abo-2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.150] claimed to be amyris.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
You are right, Suetonius is not always critical enough with his sources. On the other hand, he never invents.
J.-Y.M.
----------
De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Date : Dim 8 oct 2000 12:03
MALEUVRE schrieb:
One thing is sure, Augustus was perfectly able to kill Vergil with his own
hands (see for instance Suet. *Aug.* 27: he liked to gouge a man¹s eyes with
his own hands).
do you really believe Sueton? I have no confidence that Sueton's Klatschgeschichten and Schmäh are always true.
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 09 08:27:16 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 9 Oct 2000 03:52:42 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id AAA21726; Mon, 09 Oct 2000 00:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 10:07:03 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-abo-2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.150] claimed to be amyris.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Leofranc Holford-Stervens wrote: *navis quae tibi creditum debes Vergilium, finibus
Me too just a few years ago. Only fools never change their minds. PerhapsAtticis reddas incolumem precor*.The rest of us are content to see in that anything more than an allusion
to the inherent dangers of seafaring: ships were caught in storms or
foundered on rocks all too often.
the analysis of Ode 1. 3 proposed in *La mort de Virgile* is not without its
flaws, but just try to read the poem as a secret denuntiation of Vergil¹s
murder and you will certainly feel that it works much better this way. Only
after, if you have time, go and see the arguments.
No doubt that such a topic would be very interesting, but it is not reallyIt was my hope, precisely because critics cannot agree, that list- members would discuss which passages of the Aeneid they felt to betray a lack of final revision
necessary to the present thread. Indeed, let us summarize the argument about
Vergil¹s last travel:
-1) He ought not to leave at this moment, whether we considere the Aeneid as
flawless or still needing a few improvements. So, if he embarked
nevertheless, it was not because of the Aeneid (since it was so risking of
having it destroyed), but in spite of it. Something or somebody forced him
to go. -2) He ought not to renounce so soon to his travel, whether he was already
ill before encountering Augustus or he got fever only afterwards. Indeed, in
the first case, if the disease was light, he had no reasons for not
continuing his tour; if the disease was serious, he had better chances to
recover if he remained in Athens. In the second case, we must ask ourselves
why the mysterious reason that forced the poet to embark ceased to be
compelling as soon as he met Augustus. May be it is enough for the chapter *Coincidences*, or can somebody explain
why the death of the *maximus uates* went (seemingly) ignored by Horace,
Propertius and Ovid?
J.-Y.M.
----------
De : Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Date : Dim 8 oct 2000 13:06
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, MALEUVRE <Jean- [EMAIL PROTECTED]> writesTo Leofranc Holford-Strevens Was Nixon a murderer? It is not our problem. Why did Augustus choose to rub out poets before (or rather than) lawyers, Vergil rather than Labeo, who can say? But one must not underestimate the importance of poetry in that timeFrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 09 16:01:59 2000
Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 9 Oct 2000 15:54:05 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA18312; Mon, 09 Oct 2000 12:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 20:39:56 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, MALEUVRE <Jean- [EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
Leofranc Holford-Stervens wrote: *navis quae tibi creditum debes Vergilium, finibusAtticis reddas incolumem precor*.The rest of us are content to see in that anything more than an allusion to the inherent dangers of seafaring: ships were caught in storms or foundered on rocks all too often.Me too just a few years ago. Only fools never change their minds. Perhaps the analysis of Ode 1. 3 proposed in *La mort de Virgile* is not without its flaws, but just try to read the poem as a secret denuntiation of Vergil¹s murder and you will certainly feel that it works much better this way.
Actually I don't, though even if I did it wouldn't prove anything. Martin West once demonstrated how much richer a passage in a Wagner libretto was once one compared it with a passage of Bacchylides--and then pointed out that when Wagner wrote it the Bacchylides papyrus was not known. American political history in the early 1950s would be much neater if Joe McCarthy, who did so much to discredit anti-Communism, had been a Soviet agent, but he wasn't.
Only after, if you have time, go and see the arguments.
It was my hope, precisely because critics cannot agree, that list- members would discuss which passages of the Aeneid they felt to betray a lack of final revisionNo doubt that such a topic would be very interesting, but it is not really necessary to the present thread. Indeed, let us summarize the argument about Vergil¹s last travel: -1) He ought not to leave at this moment, whether we considere the Aeneid as flawless or still needing a few improvements. So, if he embarked nevertheless, it was not because of the Aeneid (since it was so risking of having it destroyed), but in spite of it. Something or somebody forced him to go. -2) He ought not to renounce so soon to his travel, whether he was already ill before encountering Augustus or he got fever only afterwards. Indeed, in the first case, if the disease was light, he had no reasons for not continuing his tour; if the disease was serious, he had better chances to recover if he remained in Athens. In the second case, we must ask ourselves why the mysterious reason that forced the poet to embark ceased to be compelling as soon as he met Augustus.
Who is to say what he ought or ought not to do, as if he were an
employee who needed authorization for his travel? Suppose his conduct
was irrational: have not countless people acted irrationally through the
ages?
May be it is enough for the chapter *Coincidences*, or can somebody explain why the death of the *maximus uates* went (seemingly) ignored by Horace, Propertius and Ovid?
But not by Domitius Marsus. But was the poem in immediate reaction by one poet to another's death such a well-estabished genre? We have Calliiachus epigram for Heracleitus, and the Epitaphion Bionos. and Ovid, _Amores_ 3. 9; but was it ever expected in antiquity that one great poet's death should evoke poetic responses from his contemporaries? (Epigrams on the deaths of long-dead poets, and fictitious epitaphs written in the poet's own name, are another.) Who wrote, for instance, on the deaths of Lucretius or Catullus?
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ
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Excuse my ignorance, but if Augustus murdered Vergil to suppress his dissent, why did Augustus preserve the Aeneid against Vergil's wishes?
If Augustus murdered Vergil so he could substantially revise the Aeneid himself, how much evidence is there, in the text or otherwise, of that hypothesis?
It seems to me an ambivalent Vergil might fit the evidence better than a murdered one. So ambivalent, perhaps, that trying to complete the Aeneid to the satisfaction of both himself and Augustus made him ill.
Chris Miller Department of English Saint Mary's College of California
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What i find most interesting in following this thread of messages about the death of Vergil is the conservativism among those who have written in about the issue. Is this what getting a PhD does to the mind?
Certainly there is something odd about the entire episode surrounding Vergil's death. And the questions posed are good ones. Why did Vergil set out on the lengthy trip? Why did he terminate the trip when he met Augustus? Why didn't he consult physicians in Greece? Why did he instruct his executors to burn the Aeneid if he should not return? After all, he had worked ten years on the poem and there is no doubt that line after line, book after book, it is magnificent Latin, nothing beyond it in the surviving corpus, not even Horace's Odes.
As I recall, Vergil tried his best to avoid the assignment of writing the epic. And he did this in spite of the fact that it must have been the juciest plum in the possible oeuvres of the Augustan machine. And TEN YEARS LATER AFTER TEN YEARS OF LABOR he wanted it burned? There is something more here than just dissatisfaction with a few lines here and there.
Even to the typical undergraduate, struggling with the beauty of Vergil's masterful command of the language, there always develops a mystery about just what this poem is saying. The very character of Aeneas as a national hero is purposely flawed again and again by the weakness and inhumanity of the man. The images are full of violence which often stand in controposto to the story being unfolded. It is a dark poem with very little abatement. Its beauty lies in the mind of a master poet who uses his genius to tell a story he does not want to tell and so manipulates the story to serve his own agenda in Latin so magnificently wrought that anyone who reads it is simply awed by its majesty. So it must have been with Augustus who, as I remember, saved the poem from the flame. Yet anyone who wants to maintain that the Aeneid is not a poem of rejection of what it appears to uphold will have to explain to me the end of book VI. Here at the very point where the Aeneid is finally ready to take on the heroic proportions we should expect, when its hero has finally learned his destiny via the most amazing feat a human can perform even in myth, the bottom falls out of the story and Aeneas leaves the underworld full of false dreams. What kind of rebirth is that? And then Vergil ironically tell us at the beginning of Book VII that he is beginning a greater task.
Well, I'm not a Vergil scholar and I stand back for those who are the experts, but can't we have a little bit more meat than cheap jokes about Nixon, or the Beatles, or "I just don't like your idea because it isn't what I have been taught and always believed."
The author has asked us for reasoned response. Can we give it to him?
Stuart Wheeler
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To Leofranc Holford-Stervens
About Hor. Ode 1. 3 you write that the new key I propose is of no avail. You surprise me. May I quote Nisbet and Hubbard, those excellent
commentators, who, reading this poem without this key, are forced to admit
its weakness: <Horace¹s ode is an accomplished piece of versification, but little more...
Nor is the flatness of the thought redeemed by any special excellence in the
writing<
May be you do not agree with them, but please, explain why this would-be
propempticon devotes 32 of its 40 lines to a formidable imprecation against
criminals? Wrath and indignation have little to do with wishing your best
friend a good journey. Admittedly, imprecation had its place in a classical
propempticon, but there is too much of it in this ode, it is too long and
completely disproportionate to the (would-be) theme.
You write:
Suppose his conduct
was irrational
Yes, irrational it was, and that seems to be a litotes for *fool*. I asked: can somebody explain
Your answer:why the death of the *maximus uates* went (seemingly) ignored by Horace, Propertius and Ovid?
But not by Domitius Marsus.Precisely. So, Domitius Marsus could write lines about Vergil¹s death, but
neither Horace, nor Ovid, nor Propertius? As you know, D. Marsus in his
homage link Vergil to Tibullus who died at the same time. But Ovid could
have wept on Tibullus¹ death (Amor. 3. 9) without a word for Vergil? Who
could believe that? Hence the logic conclusion that Amor. 2. 6 (tightly
paired to 3. 9) mourns for Vergil under the disguise of a psittacus (cf. the
acrostic PVM lines 32-34). Idem for Horace. Not a single word for his
*animae dimidium*! Have we the right to impute to the Venusian such an
insensivity, when Ode 1.3 (among others) asks for nothing better than being
reinterpreted as the denunciation of a real *scelus* (l. 39), and so
turning, from a mediocre occasional poem, into an impressive masterwork?
Regards.
J.-Y.M.
----------
De : Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Date : Lun 9 oct 2000 21:39
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, MALEUVRE <Jean- [EMAIL PROTECTED]> writesLeofranc Holford-Stervens wrote: *navis quae tibi creditum debes Vergilium, finibusAtticis reddas incolumem precor*.The rest of us are content to see in that anything more than an allusion to the inherent dangers of seafaring: ships were caught in storms or foundered on rocks all too often.Me too just a few years ago. Only fools never change their minds. Perhaps the analysis of Ode 1. 3 proposed in *La mort de Virgile* is not without its flaws, but just try to read the poem as a secret denuntiation of Vergil¹s murder and you will certainly feel that it works much better this way.
Actually I don't, though even if I did it wouldn't prove anything. Martin West once demonstrated how much richer a passage in a Wagner libretto was once one compared it with a passage of Bacchylides--and then pointed out that when Wagner wrote it the Bacchylides papyrus was not known. American political history in the early 1950s would be much neater if Joe McCarthy, who did so much to discredit anti-Communism, had been a Soviet agent, but he wasn't.Only after, if you have time, go and see the arguments.
It was my hope, precisely because critics cannot agree, that list- members would discuss which passages of the Aeneid they felt to betray a lack of final revisionNo doubt that such a topic would be very interesting, but it is not really necessary to the present thread. Indeed, let us summarize the argument about Vergil¹s last travel: -1) He ought not to leave at this moment, whether we considere the Aeneid as flawless or still needing a few improvements. So, if he embarked nevertheless, it was not because of the Aeneid (since it was so risking of having it destroyed), but in spite of it. Something or somebody forced him to go. -2) He ought not to renounce so soon to his travel, whether he was already ill before encountering Augustus or he got fever only afterwards. Indeed, in the first case, if the disease was light, he had no reasons for not continuing his tour; if the disease was serious, he had better chances to recover if he remained in Athens. In the second case, we must ask ourselves why the mysterious reason that forced the poet to embark ceased to be compelling as soon as he met Augustus.
Who is to say what he ought or ought not to do, as if he were an
employee who needed authorization for his travel? Suppose his conduct
was irrational: have not countless people acted irrationally through the
ages?
May be it is enough for the chapter *Coincidences*, or can somebody explain why the death of the *maximus uates* went (seemingly) ignored by Horace, Propertius and Ovid?But not by Domitius Marsus. But was the poem in immediate reaction by one poet to another's death such a well-estabished genre? We have Calliiachus epigram for Heracleitus, and the Epitaphion Bionos. and Ovid, _Amores_ 3. 9; but was it ever expected in antiquity that one great poet's death should evoke poetic responses from his contemporaries? (Epigrams on the deaths of long-dead poets, and fictitious epitaphs written in the poet's own name, are another.) Who wrote, for instance, on the deaths of Lucretius or Catullus?
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ
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In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, MALEUVRE <Jean- [EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
To Leofranc Holford-Stervens About Hor. Ode 1. 3 you write that the new key I propose is of no avail. You surprise me. May I quote Nisbet and Hubbard, those excellent commentators, who, reading this poem without this key, are forced to admit its weakness: <Horace¹s ode is an accomplished piece of versification, but little more... Nor is the flatness of the thought redeemed by any special excellence in the writing<
There's no accounting for tastes: Nisbet wrote in an earlier publication that the poem could appeal only to persons who had had a classical education. I think he was being ironic, meaning persons whose tastes had been formed on ancient rather than on modern poetry.
May be you do not agree with them, but please, explain why this would-be
propempticon devotes 32 of its 40 lines to a formidable imprecation against
criminals?
Because putting out to sea was the archetypal break with the virtuous mores of the Golden Race (Nisbet and Hubbard pile up the parallels). And suppose the poem is a comment on Vergil's death: to what manner of death is it appropriate? The answer, I should have thought, is drowning in a shipwreck, which is no more in your hypothesis than in the conventional history.
Wrath and indignation have little to do with wishing your best friend a good journey. Admittedly, imprecation had its place in a classical propempticon, but there is too much of it in this ode, it is too long and completely disproportionate to the (would-be) theme.
Or are you reading too much into 'animae . . . dimidium meae'? Even if
Horace's lady-friends all meant nothing to him, half his soul left only
(say) 24% over for Maecenas, whose birthday is almost more important to
Horace than his own (Odes 4. 11. 17-18), and who in another poem
occupies half himself (2. 17. 5-6, for that is the idiomatic sense of
_pars_). Vergil was a friend, but not so close a friend as to leave him
in charge of the Aeneid despite his imperial connections; the
propempticon is simply the starting-point for a reflection (or purported
reflection) on human ambition, just more than as a tag from an ancient
Greek poet is the starting-point for an independent poem of Horace's
own.
And who can behave so foolishly as a poet?You write: Suppose his conductwas irrationalYes, irrational it was, and that seems to be a litotes for *fool*.
Vergilium tantum vidi: there was no personal connection, nor was VergilI asked: can somebody explainYour answer:why the death of the *maximus uates* went (seemingly) ignored by Horace, Propertius and Ovid?But not by Domitius Marsus.Precisely. So, Domitius Marsus could write lines about Vergil¹s death, but neither Horace, nor Ovid, nor Propertius? As you know, D. Marsus in his homage link Vergil to Tibullus who died at the same time. But Ovid could have wept on Tibullus¹ death (Amor. 3. 9) without a word for Vergil?
a poet in Ovid's own line as Tibullus was. Poetically, Ovid loves to
play with and subvert Vergilian themes: whether you call that tribute or
criticism depends on how seriously you take Ovid as a poet of ideas.
But, as the old joke has it, this isn't a private fight; anyine can join in. I have said my piece, which I suppose boils down to a reluctance to believe in conspiracies.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ
tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work)
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>I asked: >can somebody explain >>>why the death of the *maximus uates* went (seemingly) ignored by Horace, >>>Propertius and Ovid? >Your answer: >>But not by Domitius Marsus. >Precisely. So, Domitius Marsus could write lines about Vergil¹s death, but >neither Horace, nor Ovid, nor Propertius? As you know, D. Marsus in his >homage link Vergil to Tibullus who died at the same time. But Ovid could >have wept on Tibullus¹ death (Amor. 3. 9) without a word for Vergil? Vergilium tantum vidi: there was no personal connection, nor was Vergil a poet in Ovid's own line as Tibullus was. Poetically, Ovid loves to play with and subvert Vergilian themes: whether you call that tribute or criticism depends on how seriously you take Ovid as a poet of ideas.
Exactly. There is no reason why Horace, Propertius and Ovid SHOULD write about Vergil's death. Lennon was killed in 1980, and his great contemporaries Dylan, McCartney and Jagger were poetically silent on the matter. Does this mean there was a 'black-out'? Is that what literary critics will imagine 2000 years from now? What about Bowie, who mentioned Lennon in a few songs while he was alive (a la Horace and Vergil?)? George Harrison and Elton John both wrote on Lennon's death--both were rather weak songs. It's conceivable that Dylan et al felt they couldn't write something appropriate (we could, at least, ask them). It is just as conceivable that Ovid et al felt the same way (we can't ask them).
We can't ask why a poet didn't write something and then construct an argument of conspiracy based on the imagined answer. That Horace, Propertius and Ovid did not write about Vergil's death does not permit us to look for a way to say that they did in fact do so subversively. At least, that's how i see it.
jg
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You ask:
why did Augustus preserve the Aeneid against Vergil's wishes?
You give part of the answer (the other part being: to punish him) when you write:
Augustus murdered Vergil so he could substantially revise the Aeneid himself
Indeed, Augustus aimed at smothering, or neutralizing, the subtext which reverses the apparent meaning of the epic from the beginning to the end. But to reach this goal, he needed not to bring important changes to the text let by the deceased poet, since it had already a politically correct aspect (and on that the Princeps had always kept a vigilant eye: cf. DON. Vit. 107-110; MACR. Sat. 1. 24. 11). Small but well placed alterations (essentially, I surmise, additions) were sufficient to bolt the door, i.e. to dissuade readers from looking for secret malevolence against Aeneas (and the Princeps) in the poem. Adding to this dissuasion was the fact that Augustus pretended to admire and love Vergil. Scholars should keep in mind that Augustus had total control on the sources and medias, and that he could manipulate them as he liked. First of all, by claiming that he preserved the Aeneid against its author-s wishes, he appropriated it and became, as it were, its father. Just as he eventually became *pater patriae*, i.e. father of this very Res Publica he had destroyed. You write:
If Augustus murdered Vergil so he could substantially revise the Aeneid himself, how much evidence is there, in the text or otherwise, of that hypothesis?
I have made some (certainly imperfect!) attempts to hunt down spurious lines in Books 6 to 10 (hoping to put online soon my results on Books 1 to 5). Here are the references: Aen. VI, 888-92 (LDP 5, 1997, N. 10); VII, 583-4 (LEC 63, 1995, pp. 231-2); VIII, 229-231 reduced to *Accessum lustrans ter temptat feruidus ira* (Euphrosyne 20, 1992, pp. 87-8); IX, 446-9, 640-4, 760-1, 774-7 (RBPh 72, 1994, pp. 35-61), X, 502 (RBPh 70, 1992, p. 92).
It seems to me an ambivalent Vergil might fit the evidence better than a murdered one. So ambivalent, perhaps, that trying to complete the Aeneid to the satisfaction of both himself and Augustus made him ill.
I am happy to see that you too are skeptical about the insolation scenario:-)) Regards. J.-Y.M. ----------
De : Chris Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : VIRGIL: Murder or ambivalence? Date : Mar 10 oct 2000 2:04
Excuse my ignorance, but if Augustus murdered Vergil to suppress his dissent, why did Augustus preserve the Aeneid against Vergil's wishes?
If Augustus murdered Vergil so he could substantially revise the Aeneid himself, how much evidence is there, in the text or otherwise, of that hypothesis?
It seems to me an ambivalent Vergil might fit the evidence better than a murdered one. So ambivalent, perhaps, that trying to complete the Aeneid to the satisfaction of both himself and Augustus made him ill.
Chris Miller Department of English Saint Mary's College of California
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<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
From: "Timothy Mallon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:01:05 GMT
This poem is not going after criminals (or a criminal), but after the gens humana entirely. What is odd about it is that, to me at least, the structure up to line 24 implies a return to the theme of V.'s journey (V. ... illi qui ratem commisit ... [V.]) which doesn't happen. Instead, H. takes off on a general theme about human overreaching and arrogance, and we are (or better, I am) left without a clue as to how or why V. the voyager is to be related to the primordial voyager. It's safe to guess that a contrast is implied, but the question remains why.
TM
******************************* Screaming holds across the sky. Pynchon, _G's R_ ******************************* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 11 14:18:39 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 11 Oct 2000 12:20:02 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA05348; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:57:10 -0400 From: "Heslin, Dr. Tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host [207.3.228.8] claimed to be sev2minnow.severnschool.com Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I am having a hard time writing anything at this point that is not
insulting. The "Paul is dead" allusion was intended as a caveat, and is
really to the point (as were the comments about Nixon). Anyone who has
written a paper or a dissertation defends his or her pet theory with
more focused rage than a wounded mother bear, and plays fast and loose with
interpretations as well as the most inspired Bible thumper. We are at
the stage of ideologues debating politics - our minds are made up, and
we will not be confused by the facts. Can we move on to another topic?
-----Original Message----- From: MALEUVRE [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid
To Leofranc Holford-Stervens About Hor. Ode 1. 3 you write that the new key I propose is of no avail.
You surprise me. May I quote Nisbet and Hubbard, those excellent
commentators, who, reading this poem without this key, are forced to
admit
its weakness: <Horace¹s ode is an accomplished piece of versification, but little
more...
Nor is the flatness of the thought redeemed by any special excellence in
the
writing<
May be you do not agree with them, but please, explain why this would-be
propempticon devotes 32 of its 40 lines to a formidable imprecation
against
criminals? Wrath and indignation have little to do with wishing your
best
friend a good journey. Admittedly, imprecation had its place in a
classical
propempticon, but there is too much of it in this ode, it is too long
and
completely disproportionate to the (would-be) theme.
You write:
Suppose his conduct
was irrational
Yes, irrational it was, and that seems to be a litotes for *fool*. I asked: can somebody explain
Horace,why the death of the *maximus uates* went (seemingly) ignored by
Your answer:Propertius and Ovid?
But not by Domitius Marsus.Precisely. So, Domitius Marsus could write lines about Vergil¹s death,
but
neither Horace, nor Ovid, nor Propertius? As you know, D. Marsus in his
homage link Vergil to Tibullus who died at the same time. But Ovid could
have wept on Tibullus¹ death (Amor. 3. 9) without a word for Vergil? Who
could believe that? Hence the logic conclusion that Amor. 2. 6 (tightly
paired to 3. 9) mourns for Vergil under the disguise of a psittacus (cf.
the
acrostic PVM lines 32-34). Idem for Horace. Not a single word for his
*animae dimidium*! Have we the right to impute to the Venusian such an
insensivity, when Ode 1.3 (among others) asks for nothing better than
being
reinterpreted as the denunciation of a real *scelus* (l. 39), and so
turning, from a mediocre occasional poem, into an impressive masterwork?
Regards.
J.-Y.M.
----------
De : Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Date : Lun 9 oct 2000 21:39
allusionIn message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, MALEUVRE <Jean- [EMAIL PROTECTED]> writesLeofranc Holford-Stervens wrote: *navis quae tibi creditum debes Vergilium, finibusAtticis reddas incolumem precor*.The rest of us are content to see in that anything more than an
PerhapsMe too just a few years ago. Only fools never change their minds.to the inherent dangers of seafaring: ships were caught in storms or foundered on rocks all too often.
without itsthe analysis of Ode 1. 3 proposed in *La mort de Virgile* is not
Vergil¹sflaws, but just try to read the poem as a secret denuntiation of
hadmurder and you will certainly feel that it works much better this way.
Actually I don't, though even if I did it wouldn't prove anything. Martin West once demonstrated how much richer a passage in a Wagner libretto was once one compared it with a passage of Bacchylides--and then pointed out that when Wagner wrote it the Bacchylides papyrus was not known. American political history in the early 1950s would be much neater if Joe McCarthy, who did so much to discredit anti-Communism,
been a Soviet agent, but he wasn't.betray aOnly after, if you have time, go and see the arguments.
It was my hope, precisely because critics cannot agree, that list- members would discuss which passages of the Aeneid they felt to
reallylack of final revisionNo doubt that such a topic would be very interesting, but it is not
aboutnecessary to the present thread. Indeed, let us summarize the argument
Aeneid asVergil¹s last travel: -1) He ought not to leave at this moment, whether we considere the
risking offlawless or still needing a few improvements. So, if he embarked nevertheless, it was not because of the Aeneid (since it was so
himhaving it destroyed), but in spite of it. Something or somebody forced
alreadyto go. -2) He ought not to renounce so soon to his travel, whether he was
Indeed, inill before encountering Augustus or he got fever only afterwards.
tothe first case, if the disease was light, he had no reasons for not continuing his tour; if the disease was serious, he had better chances
ourselvesrecover if he remained in Athens. In the second case, we must ask
thewhy the mysterious reason that forced the poet to embark ceased to be compelling as soon as he met Augustus.
Who is to say what he ought or ought not to do, as if he were an employee who needed authorization for his travel? Suppose his conduct was irrational: have not countless people acted irrationally through
ages?explain
May be it is enough for the chapter *Coincidences*, or can somebody
Horace,why the death of the *maximus uates* went (seemingly) ignored by
_*Propertius and Ovid?But not by Domitius Marsus. But was the poem in immediate reaction by one poet to another's death such a well-estabished genre? We have Calliiachus epigram for Heracleitus, and the Epitaphion Bionos. and Ovid, _Amores_ 3. 9; but was it ever expected in antiquity that one great poet's death should evoke poetic responses from his contemporaries? (Epigrams on the deaths of long-dead poets, and fictitious epitaphs written in the poet's own name, are another.) Who wrote, for instance, on the deaths of Lucretius or Catullus?
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
adeone
Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque
Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciatalter?
512237OX2 6EJ
tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED](work)
_*
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
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<DIV><FONT size=2>Please take me off this list. I've tried the usual routes but with no success. I apologize to list members for not following proper protocol. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]>David Wilson-Okamura</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"; [EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 11, 2000 8:25 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> VIRGIL: Hor. carmina I.iii; was Vergil's murder</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >><BR><BR>From: "Timothy Mallon" <<A href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A>><BR>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:01:05 GMT<BR><BR>This poem is not going after criminals (or a criminal), but after the gens <BR>humana entirely. What is odd about it is that, to me at least, the structure <BR>up to line 24 implies a return to the theme of V.'s journey (V. ... illi qui <BR>ratem commisit ... [V.]) which doesn't happen. Instead, H. takes off on a <BR>general theme about human overreaching and arrogance, and we are (or better, <BR>I am) left without a clue as to how or why V. the voyager is to be related <BR>to the primordial voyager. It's safe to guess that a contrast is implied, <BR>but the question remains why.<BR><BR>TM<BR><BR>*******************************<BR>Screaming holds across the sky.<BR>Pynchon, _G's R_<BR>*******************************<BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply.<BR>Instead, send email to <A href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> with the message<BR>"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You<BR>can also unsubscribe at <A href="http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub";>http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
</x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 11 18:18:53 2000
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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 19:25:20 +0200
From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid
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I asked: < Ovid could
Your answer:>have wept on Tibullus¹ death (Amor. 3. 9) without a word for Vergil?
The exact quotation is: *Vergilium uidi tantum* (Tr. 4. 10. 51) and if youVergilium tantum vidi>:
take it at its face value, it is simply shocking (see C. Hardie, ed. *Vitae
Vergil. antiquae*, p. XVI: <sic nude>). But I had idea that Ovid could be
redeemed. Here is the entire distic:
Vergilium uidi tantum nec auara Tibullo
tempus amicitiae fata dedere meae.
A first remark: we see here that Ovid did not know Tibullus much better than
Vergil, so that nothing would excuse that he could have paired Tibullus
(Amor. 3. 9) with a psittacus (Amor. 2. 6) rather than with Vergilius!
The phrase *Vergilium uidi tantum* could very well conceal a religious
meaning, as I argue in *La mort de Virgile*, p. 313 with notes 25 and 26,
*tantum* being an adjective. The latens significatio would be:
I saw Vergilius at his true dimension.
It could be instructive to compare Tr. 3. 5. 49-50, as a clue to the
mysterious reason of Ovid-s relegation: Inscia quod crimen uiderunt lumina plector
peccatumque oculos est habuisse meum.
<there was no personal connection, nor was Vergil
a poet in Ovid's own line as Tibullus was.>
One cannot be so categorical. Excuse me for referring to my own works, but I suggest you go to *La mort de Virgile*, part 2 (for Tr. and Pont.) and to *Jeux de Masques*, part 3 (for Amores). Hopefully you will agree that Ovid is fully in Vergil-s line.
< Poetically, Ovid loves to
play with and subvert Vergilian themes>
Actually we got this impression essentially because we were ignoring the Vergilian subtext. I maintain that Ovid always revered Vergil as a model, as a master, and as a hero.
You are right. I do not claim that Horace-s, Propertius-s, Ovid-s silenceWe can't ask why a poet didn't write something and then construct an argument of conspiracy based on the imagined answer. That Horace, Propertius and Ovid did not write about Vergil's death does not permit us to look for a way to say that they did in fact do so subversively.>
prove that Vergil was killed. I just wonder. Remember, the chapter
*Coincidences* of http://virgilmurder.org aims only to reverse the odds in
favor of a seemingly extravagant hypothesis. It prepares the sailor, well,
the reader, to open his mind to presumably disturbing ideas. It washes it,
as it were. Regards.
J.-Y. M.
----------
De : John Geyssen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Date : Mar 10 oct 2000 23:38
>I asked: >can somebody explain >>>why the death of the *maximus uates* went (seemingly) ignored by Horace, >>>Propertius and Ovid? >Your answer: >>But not by Domitius Marsus. >Precisely. So, Domitius Marsus could write lines about Vergil¹s death, but >neither Horace, nor Ovid, nor Propertius? As you know, D. Marsus in his >homage link Vergil to Tibullus who died at the same time. But Ovid could >have wept on Tibullus¹ death (Amor. 3. 9) without a word for Vergil? Vergilium tantum vidi: there was no personal connection, nor was Vergil a poet in Ovid's own line as Tibullus was. Poetically, Ovid loves to play with and subvert Vergilian themes: whether you call that tribute or criticism depends on how seriously you take Ovid as a poet of ideas.
Exactly. There is no reason why Horace, Propertius and Ovid SHOULD write about Vergil's death. Lennon was killed in 1980, and his great contemporaries Dylan, McCartney and Jagger were poetically silent on the matter. Does this mean there was a 'black-out'? Is that what literary critics will imagine 2000 years from now? What about Bowie, who mentioned Lennon in a few songs while he was alive (a la Horace and Vergil?)? George Harrison and Elton John both wrote on Lennon's death--both were rather weak songs. It's conceivable that Dylan et al felt they couldn't write something appropriate (we could, at least, ask them). It is just as conceivable that Ovid et al felt the same way (we can't ask them).
We can't ask why a poet didn't write something and then construct an argument of conspiracy based on the imagined answer. That Horace, Propertius and Ovid did not write about Vergil's death does not permit us to look for a way to say that they did in fact do so subversively. At least, that's how i see it.
jg
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 11 14:19:11 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 11 Oct 2000 13:45:15 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id KAA24334; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 19:46:24 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-rt-6.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.160] claimed to be caroubier.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I asked: < Ovid could
Your answer:>have wept on Tibullus¹ death (Amor. 3. 9) without a word for Vergil?
Vergilium tantum vidi>:
The exact quotation is: *Vergilium uidi tantum* (Tr. 4. 10. 51) and if you take it at its face value, it is simply shocking (see C. Hardie, ed. *Vitae Vergil. antiquae*, p. XVI: <sic nude>). But I had idea that Ovid could be redeemed. Here is the entire distic: Vergilium uidi tantum nec auara Tibullo tempus amicitiae fata dedere meae. A first remark: we see here that Ovid did not know Tibullus much better than Vergil, so that nothing would excuse that he could have paired Tibullus (Amor. 3. 9) with a psittacus (Amor. 2. 6) rather than with Vergilius! The phrase *Vergilium uidi tantum* could very well conceal a religious meaning, as I argue in *La mort de Virgile*, p. 313 with notes 25 and 26, *tantum* being an adjective. The latens significatio would be: I saw Vergilius at his true dimension. It could be instructive to compare Tr. 3. 5. 49-50, as a clue to the mysterious reason of Ovid-s relegation: Inscia quod crimen uiderunt lumina plector peccatumque oculos est habuisse meum.
<there was no personal connection, nor was Vergil
a poet in Ovid's own line as Tibullus was.>
One cannot be so categorical. Excuse me for referring to my own works, but I suggest you go to *La mort de Virgile*, part 2 (for Tr. and Pont.) and to *Jeux de Masques*, part 3 (for Amores). Hopefully you will agree that Ovid is fully in Vergil-s line.
< Poetically, Ovid loves to
play with and subvert Vergilian themes>
Actually we got this impression essentially because we were ignoring the Vergilian subtext. I maintain that Ovid always revered Vergil as a model, as a master, and as a hero.
We can't ask why a poet didn't write something and then construct an argument of conspiracy based on the imagined answer. That Horace, Propertius and Ovid did not write about Vergil's death does not permit us to look for a way to say that they did in fact do so subversively.>
You are right. I do not claim that Horace-s, Propertius-s, Ovid-s silence prove that Vergil was killed. I just wonder. Remember, the chapter *Coincidences* of http://virgilmurder.org aims only to reverse the odds in favor of a seemingly extravagant hypothesis. It prepares the sailor, well, the reader, to open his mind to presumably disturbing ideas. It washes it, as it were. Regards. J.-Y. M. ----------
De : John Geyssen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Date : Mar 10 oct 2000 23:38
>I asked: >can somebody explain >>>why the death of the *maximus uates* went (seemingly) ignored by Horace, >>>Propertius and Ovid? >Your answer: >>But not by Domitius Marsus. >Precisely. So, Domitius Marsus could write lines about Vergil¹s death, but >neither Horace, nor Ovid, nor Propertius? As you know, D. Marsus in his >homage link Vergil to Tibullus who died at the same time. But Ovid could >have wept on Tibullus¹ death (Amor. 3. 9) without a word for Vergil? Vergilium tantum vidi: there was no personal connection, nor was Vergil a poet in Ovid's own line as Tibullus was. Poetically, Ovid loves to play with and subvert Vergilian themes: whether you call that tribute or criticism depends on how seriously you take Ovid as a poet of ideas.
Exactly. There is no reason why Horace, Propertius and Ovid SHOULD write about Vergil's death. Lennon was killed in 1980, and his great contemporaries Dylan, McCartney and Jagger were poetically silent on the matter. Does this mean there was a 'black-out'? Is that what literary critics will imagine 2000 years from now? What about Bowie, who mentioned Lennon in a few songs while he was alive (a la Horace and Vergil?)? George Harrison and Elton John both wrote on Lennon's death--both were rather weak songs. It's conceivable that Dylan et al felt they couldn't write something appropriate (we could, at least, ask them). It is just as conceivable that Ovid et al felt the same way (we can't ask them).
We can't ask why a poet didn't write something and then construct an argument of conspiracy based on the imagined answer. That Horace, Propertius and Ovid did not write about Vergil's death does not permit us to look for a way to say that they did in fact do so subversively. At least, that's how i see it.
jg
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 11 14:19:16 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 11 Oct 2000 13:57:44 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id KAA25988; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 19:58:08 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-rt-5.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.159] claimed to be bassia.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
< Can we move on to another topic?> Yes, you certainly can, if you are not able to face the truth and at the least discuss the arguments. Vale. J.-Y. M.
----------
De : "Heslin, Dr. Tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Objet : RE: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Date : Mer 11 oct 2000 17:57
I am having a hard time writing anything at this point that is not
insulting. The "Paul is dead" allusion was intended as a caveat, and is
really to the point (as were the comments about Nixon). Anyone who has
written a paper or a dissertation defends his or her pet theory with
more focused rage than a wounded mother bear, and plays fast and loose with
interpretations as well as the most inspired Bible thumper. We are at
the stage of ideologues debating politics - our minds are made up, and
we will not be confused by the facts. Can we move on to another topic?
-----Original Message----- From: MALEUVRE [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid
To Leofranc Holford-Stervens About Hor. Ode 1. 3 you write that the new key I propose is of no avail.
You surprise me. May I quote Nisbet and Hubbard, those excellent
commentators, who, reading this poem without this key, are forced to
admit
its weakness: <Horace¹s ode is an accomplished piece of versification, but little
more...
Nor is the flatness of the thought redeemed by any special excellence in
the
writing<
May be you do not agree with them, but please, explain why this would-be
propempticon devotes 32 of its 40 lines to a formidable imprecation
against
criminals? Wrath and indignation have little to do with wishing your
best
friend a good journey. Admittedly, imprecation had its place in a
classical
propempticon, but there is too much of it in this ode, it is too long
and
completely disproportionate to the (would-be) theme.
You write:
Suppose his conductwas irrationalYes, irrational it was, and that seems to be a litotes for *fool*. I asked: can somebody explainHorace,why the death of the *maximus uates* went (seemingly) ignored byYour answer:Propertius and Ovid?But not by Domitius Marsus.Precisely. So, Domitius Marsus could write lines about Vergil¹s death,
but
neither Horace, nor Ovid, nor Propertius? As you know, D. Marsus in his
homage link Vergil to Tibullus who died at the same time. But Ovid could
have wept on Tibullus¹ death (Amor. 3. 9) without a word for Vergil? Who
could believe that? Hence the logic conclusion that Amor. 2. 6 (tightly
paired to 3. 9) mourns for Vergil under the disguise of a psittacus (cf.
the
acrostic PVM lines 32-34). Idem for Horace. Not a single word for his
*animae dimidium*! Have we the right to impute to the Venusian such an
insensivity, when Ode 1.3 (among others) asks for nothing better than
being
reinterpreted as the denunciation of a real *scelus* (l. 39), and so
turning, from a mediocre occasional poem, into an impressive masterwork?
Regards.
J.-Y.M.
----------De : Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Date : Lun 9 oct 2000 21:39
allusionIn message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, MALEUVRE <Jean- [EMAIL PROTECTED]> writesLeofranc Holford-Stervens wrote: *navis quae tibi creditum debes Vergilium, finibusAtticis reddas incolumem precor*.The rest of us are content to see in that anything more than anPerhapsMe too just a few years ago. Only fools never change their minds.to the inherent dangers of seafaring: ships were caught in storms or foundered on rocks all too often.without itsthe analysis of Ode 1. 3 proposed in *La mort de Virgile* is notVergil¹sflaws, but just try to read the poem as a secret denuntiation ofhadmurder and you will certainly feel that it works much better this way.
Actually I don't, though even if I did it wouldn't prove anything. Martin West once demonstrated how much richer a passage in a Wagner libretto was once one compared it with a passage of Bacchylides--and then pointed out that when Wagner wrote it the Bacchylides papyrus was not known. American political history in the early 1950s would be much neater if Joe McCarthy, who did so much to discredit anti-Communism,been a Soviet agent, but he wasn't.betray aOnly after, if you have time, go and see the arguments.
It was my hope, precisely because critics cannot agree, that list- members would discuss which passages of the Aeneid they felt toreallylack of final revisionNo doubt that such a topic would be very interesting, but it is notaboutnecessary to the present thread. Indeed, let us summarize the argumentAeneid asVergil¹s last travel: -1) He ought not to leave at this moment, whether we considere therisking offlawless or still needing a few improvements. So, if he embarked nevertheless, it was not because of the Aeneid (since it was sohimhaving it destroyed), but in spite of it. Something or somebody forcedalreadyto go. -2) He ought not to renounce so soon to his travel, whether he wasIndeed, inill before encountering Augustus or he got fever only afterwards.tothe first case, if the disease was light, he had no reasons for not continuing his tour; if the disease was serious, he had better chancesourselvesrecover if he remained in Athens. In the second case, we must askthewhy the mysterious reason that forced the poet to embark ceased to be compelling as soon as he met Augustus.
Who is to say what he ought or ought not to do, as if he were an employee who needed authorization for his travel? Suppose his conduct was irrational: have not countless people acted irrationally throughages?explain
May be it is enough for the chapter *Coincidences*, or can somebodyHorace,why the death of the *maximus uates* went (seemingly) ignored by_*Propertius and Ovid?But not by Domitius Marsus. But was the poem in immediate reaction by one poet to another's death such a well-estabished genre? We have Calliiachus epigram for Heracleitus, and the Epitaphion Bionos. and Ovid, _Amores_ 3. 9; but was it ever expected in antiquity that one great poet's death should evoke poetic responses from his contemporaries? (Epigrams on the deaths of long-dead poets, and fictitious epitaphs written in the poet's own name, are another.) Who wrote, for instance, on the deaths of Lucretius or Catullus?
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*adeone
Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usqueOxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciatalter?512237OX2 6EJ
tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED](work)_*
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 11 16:34:50 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:31:10 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA17918; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 13:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:32:21 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Hor. carmina I.iii; was Vergil's murder Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:23:39 -0700 From: "Damien Nelis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Vergil is a voyager because he is writing a great epic; the voyage in Odes 1.3 is the poem, i.e. the Aeneid. Someone has written a very good article on this, but I have forgotten the reference. DPNelis
----------
From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: Hor. carmina I.iii; was Vergil's murder Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000, 6:25
<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
From: "Timothy Mallon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:01:05 GMT
This poem is not going after criminals (or a criminal), but after the gens humana entirely. What is odd about it is that, to me at least, the structure up to line 24 implies a return to the theme of V.'s journey (V. ... illi qui ratem commisit ... [V.]) which doesn't happen. Instead, H. takes off on a general theme about human overreaching and arrogance, and we are (or better, I am) left without a clue as to how or why V. the voyager is to be related to the primordial voyager. It's safe to guess that a contrast is implied, but the question remains why.
TM
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Oct 12 09:34:00 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 12 Oct 2000 05:08:37 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id CAA12629; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 02:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:24:01 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-rt-9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.55] claimed to be alisier.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
About Od. 1.3, I asked:
Your answer:please, explain why this would-be propempticon devotes 32 of its 40 lines to a formidable imprecation against criminals?
Because putting out to sea was the archetypal break with the virtuousmores of the Golden Race>
All right, nobody can prevent you from reducing a masterwork to an
artificial exercise. All right, Horace is just playing with an archetype, or
perhaps he is angry because ships keep sailing without his permission. As
you like.
And suppose the poem is a comment on Vergil's death: to what manner of deathis it appropriate? The answer, I should have thought, is drowning in a
shipwreck, which is no more in your hypothesis than in the conventional
history.>
Horace may be thinking of Arion (a mask for the dead Vergil in Ov. Fast. 2.
79-118, as I argue in RBPh 75, 1997, pp. 92-93). He is simply saying that
the Navis (in fact, the Nauta - or *Primus*, l. 14 - as in Od. 1. 28) is
defying divine wrath with his crime (Œscelus¹, l. 39).
Or are you reading too much into *animae . . . dimidium meae*? Even if
Horace¹s lady-friends all meant nothing to him, half his soul left only (say) 24% over for Maecenas, whose birthday is almost more important to Horace than his own (Odes 4. 11. 17-18), and who in another poem occupies half himself (2. 17. 5-6, for that is the idiomatic sense of _pars_).> What a pity that you did not have time to read my paper (sorry) on Od. 2. 17 in REA 93, 1991, pp. 87 sqq, for, when you want to take to the letter, and so ridicule, the sublime phrase *animae dimidium meae*, you are talking as Augustus, the true speaker of that poem, in my view.
Vergil was a friend, but not so close a friend as to leave him
in charge of the Aeneid despite his imperial connections > Admittedly, Varius and Tucca were close friends of Vergil, too. However, granted that it was Vergil and not Augustus who left them in charge of the Aeneid, one could suspect that in avoiding to choose Horace, Vergil obeyed to prudence.
And who can behave so foolishly as a poet?>
a foolishness that risked to cost him (and us) the Aeneid?
-Nunc, let us summarize our differences. To defend your theory (i.e. to maintain the traditional views), you are forced to admit that: -a) Vergil was a fool (so we can understand why he visited Megara *feruentissimo sole* without a hat). -b) Ovid subverts Vergil, i.e;, again, makes a fool of him. -c) The acrostic PVM in Amor. 2. 6 is purely fortuitous. -d) Horace is an hypocrite. -e) Od. 1.3 is little more than Œan accomplished piece of versification¹, to quote Nisbet and Hubbard, and which has practically nothing to do with Vergil (>propempticon is simply the starting-point for a reflection (or purported reflection) on human ambition>, as you write). The theory I challenge help repel these charges and permit to fully realize the human and artistic grandeur of Augustan poets.
I have said my piece, which I suppose boils down to a reluctance to
believe in conspiracies> Please don¹t quit. The discussion has hardly begun. We need you. Regards. J.-Y. M. ----------
De : Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Date : Mar 10 oct 2000 22:53
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, MALEUVRE <Jean- [EMAIL PROTECTED]> writesTo Leofranc Holford-Stervens About Hor. Ode 1. 3 you write that the new key I propose is of no avail. You surprise me. May I quote Nisbet and Hubbard, those excellent commentators, who, reading this poem without this key, are forced to admit its weakness: <Horace¹s ode is an accomplished piece of versification, but little more... Nor is the flatness of the thought redeemed by any special excellence in the writing<There's no accounting for tastes: Nisbet wrote in an earlier publication that the poem could appeal only to persons who had had a classical education. I think he was being ironic, meaning persons whose tastes had been formed on ancient rather than on modern poetry.May be you do not agree with them, but please, explain why this would-be
propempticon devotes 32 of its 40 lines to a formidable imprecation against
criminals?
Because putting out to sea was the archetypal break with the virtuous mores of the Golden Race (Nisbet and Hubbard pile up the parallels). And suppose the poem is a comment on Vergil's death: to what manner of death is it appropriate? The answer, I should have thought, is drowning in a shipwreck, which is no more in your hypothesis than in the conventional history.
Wrath and indignation have little to do with wishing your best friend a good journey. Admittedly, imprecation had its place in a classical propempticon, but there is too much of it in this ode, it is too long and completely disproportionate to the (would-be) theme.
Or are you reading too much into 'animae . . . dimidium meae'? Even if
Horace's lady-friends all meant nothing to him, half his soul left only
(say) 24% over for Maecenas, whose birthday is almost more important to
Horace than his own (Odes 4. 11. 17-18), and who in another poem
occupies half himself (2. 17. 5-6, for that is the idiomatic sense of
_pars_). Vergil was a friend, but not so close a friend as to leave him
in charge of the Aeneid despite his imperial connections; the
propempticon is simply the starting-point for a reflection (or purported
reflection) on human ambition, just more than as a tag from an ancient
Greek poet is the starting-point for an independent poem of Horace's
own.And who can behave so foolishly as a poet?You write: Suppose his conductwas irrationalYes, irrational it was, and that seems to be a litotes for *fool*.Vergilium tantum vidi: there was no personal connection, nor was VergilI asked: can somebody explainYour answer:why the death of the *maximus uates* went (seemingly) ignored by Horace, Propertius and Ovid?But not by Domitius Marsus.Precisely. So, Domitius Marsus could write lines about Vergil¹s death, but neither Horace, nor Ovid, nor Propertius? As you know, D. Marsus in his homage link Vergil to Tibullus who died at the same time. But Ovid could have wept on Tibullus¹ death (Amor. 3. 9) without a word for Vergil?
a poet in Ovid's own line as Tibullus was. Poetically, Ovid loves to
play with and subvert Vergilian themes: whether you call that tribute or
criticism depends on how seriously you take Ovid as a poet of ideas.
But, as the old joke has it, this isn't a private fight; anyine can join in. I have said my piece, which I suppose boils down to a reluctance to believe in conspiracies.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Oct 12 09:33:59 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 12 Oct 2000 05:06:16 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id CAA13225; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 02:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:32:02 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Hor. carmina I.iii; was Vergil's murder Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-rt-12.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.60] claimed to be tamaris.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
This poem is not going after criminals (or a criminal), but after the gens
humana entirely> Let us not confuse appearance with reality. *Gens humana* here is perhaps no more than a disguise. The proof? Just pronounce the poem in a loud voice, it¹s purely a question of tone, I think. And would Horace fly into such an heart-felt imprecation against the whole *gens humana* (i.e. nobody! Think of Don Quixote tilting at windmills) simply because his friend is leaving for a journey?
we are (or better, I am) left without a clue as to how or why V. the voyager is to be related to the primordial voyager. It's safe to guess that a contrast is implied, but the question remains why.>I propose a clue: The primordial voyager (*Primus*, l. 13) is responsible
for the *scelus* (l. 39), you know which. J.-Y. M.
----------
De : David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : VIRGIL: Hor. carmina I.iii; was Vergil's murder Date : Mer 11 oct 2000 15:25
<< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >>
From: "Timothy Mallon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:01:05 GMT
This poem is not going after criminals (or a criminal), but after the gens humana entirely. What is odd about it is that, to me at least, the structure up to line 24 implies a return to the theme of V.'s journey (V. ... illi qui ratem commisit ... [V.]) which doesn't happen. Instead, H. takes off on a general theme about human overreaching and arrogance, and we are (or better, I am) left without a clue as to how or why V. the voyager is to be related to the primordial voyager. It's safe to guess that a contrast is implied, but the question remains why.
TM
******************************* Screaming holds across the sky. Pynchon, _G's R_ ******************************* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Oct 12 09:34:15 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 12 Oct 2000 06:09:05 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id DAA19849; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 03:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:39:35 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Hor. carmina I.iii; was Vergil's murder Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-rt-7.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.161] claimed to be embelia.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
the voyage in Odes 1.3 is the poem, i.e. the Aeneid>
Actually this interpretation seems to have become something of a trend nowadays. But it does not harmonize at all with the general tone of the poem. Indeed, what would be then the sense of this terrible fit of anger? However, that theory has the advantage of showing that the traditional, plain, reading is unsatisfying.
< Someone has written a very good article on
this, but I have forgotten the reference>
The references could be found in 'La mort de Virgile' :-)) But it is in French ;-(( Anyway, here they are (three only I found): CODY, J. V. *Horace and Callimachean Aesthetics*, collection Latomus CXXXVII, 1976. DETTMER, H. *Horace. A Study in Structure*, Olms-Weidmann, 1983. LOCKYER, C. *Horace-s Propempticon and Vergil-s Voyage*, CW 61, 1967, 42-45From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Oct 12 09:34:15 2000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 12 Oct 2000 06:10:06 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id DAA20492; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 03:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:46:24 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-rt-10.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.59] claimed to be camelia.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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De : "Jim O'Hara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Date : Mer 11 oct 2000 22:05
killed Vergil, and would not hesitate to embrace any evidence that pointed t
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Jim, sorry, I did not want to upset you. As I told you off-line, I am ready to yield to anybody's argument, but certainly not to intimidation. How can you reproach me for being totally convinced of what I say? You say I am >obviously impervious to criticism>, but on the contrary it is criticism that conducted me to the theory I champion.I obey only to reason, while my opponents too often obey to pulsions and preconceptions. Adde quod some of them seem <obviously impervious' to argumentation>. Jim, I deeply regret you are so biased against me. See how savagely (;-(( you assaulted my interpretation of *Vergilium uidi tantum*, without going to the references, and letting unanswered the rest of the message. But to this phrase we will return in due time, if you want. You charge me with the crime of stubbornness. Well, suppose x presents an argument; y objects to it; x answers to the objection; y counter-objects. Don-t you think that x must reply, if he can, to this counter-objection? Call that stubbornness, others will call it discussion. When the dialogue, or certamen, has ceased, everybody on this list should be able to decide who is the winner. Was Vergil murdered? Res est non parva for all of us. Please, Jim, come loyally into this debate and enrich it with your vast knowledge, your sensitiveness, your acuteness that we all admire. But let us go step by step and point by point. First of all, tell us if after the chapter *Coincidences* you think the odds have been reversed, or why not. Best regards. JYM.
----------
De : "Jim O'Hara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder; faults in Aeneid Date : Mer 11 oct 2000 22:05
J.-Y. M.The phrase *Vergilium uidi tantum* could very well conceal a religious meaning, as I argue in *La mort de Virgile*, p. 313 with notes 25 and 26, *tantum* being an adjective. The latens significatio would be: I saw Vergilius at his true dimension.
Some of the people on the list have complained that we have been flippant about these arguments. I will try to be brief and to the point. I have an extremely open mind about conspiracies. I think it likely, though not certain, that in 1980 George Bush traveled to Paris to tell the Iraqis not to release the hostages to Jimmy Carter so he could win the election, and promised them that later Reagan would trade arms for hostages. I am not surprised at the recent revelation that in 1968 Nixon made a similar deal urging the South Vietnamese generals to boycott peace talks, so that he could win that election. I believe that much has been covered up about the assasination of JFK, although I don't think we can ever know the truth.
I am also perfectly open to the idea that Augustus killed Vergil, and would not hesitate to embrace any evidence that pointed to it.
That said, however, I have to say that I have seen nothing either on this list on on J.-Y. M.'s website that comes even remotely close to be a valid pice of evidence. All I see are, first, a number of highly subjective and worthless claims that something in the skimpy historical record is "unlikely", and second, a potentially endless series of very poor, implausible, unpersuasive readings of Augustan-era poems. The suggestion cited above, that "Vergilium uidi tantum" could mean "I saw Vergilius at his true dimension", is typically unpersuasive. The claims about numerology, or about identifying lines that Augustus inserted, or poems that Horace wrote after Vergil's death, seem all to be based on naive or delusional fantasies about the way poems work on readers-- and I say this as someone who has no problem with ambiguity, indeterminacy, subtexts or subversion when good arguments are made about them. The criticisms by Phil T, LHS, and others have scored devastating body-blows on J.-Y. M., but he is obviously impervious to criticism, and not in possession of the kind of "open mind" he demands from others. I am also not impressed by J.-Y. M.'s occasional claims that he is merely trying to encourage debate or open minds, or when he says "I just wonder". The website claims that Vergil was murdered, as if this were a fact. The argumentative methods used seem highly faulty, and I don't want any of the amateurs or younger people on this list to get the idea that there is much of anything of value in them.
I'm sorry, J.-Y. M.; you seem like a nice guy, but weak arguments are weak arguments.
Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara
Professor of Classical Studies Classical Studies Dept.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University
860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146
Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Oct 13 14:17:23 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 13 Oct 2000 13:19:30 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id KAA11932; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:39:45 -0500 From: Randi C Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.1a August 17, 1999 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on osu-ns05/Okstate(Release 5.0.4 |June 8, 2000) at 10/13/2000 12:39:45 PM Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Christian Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] o.edu> cc: (bcc: Randi C Sent by: Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's oninet.com murder 10/05/00 01:14 PM Please respond to mantovano
I will preface this by saying that I am a great admirer of the Georgics and the Eclogues, and that the ideas, while incorrect, are interesting to say the least. I have serious issue with your proposition that the Aeneid is a 'nearly perfect' work. Stylistically, it falls far below the mark of Vergil's previous works; as a whole, while presenting a vaguely interesting narrative, it is unwieldy, and often (and I doubt this is simply a quick nod to the epic style) repetitive and cumbersome
--I'm surprised that everyone on Mantovano would let this remark pass
without comment. While the style of the Eclogues and the Georgics may be
more polished, it is absurd to dismiss the _Aeneid_ as just a "vaguely
interesting narrative." On the contrary--has anything more gripping than
the Aeneid, more central to the concerns of Western society, ever been
written?
I don't have time to expatiate on this, but I would like to hear from
others.Randi Eldevik Associate Professor Oklahoma State University
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Indeed, indeed-- all this nonsense about the Aeneid NOT being a remarkable
piece of literature--Good Heavens! It is probably the first truly great
literary narrative in the west. How can anyone consider the style "boring"
or "repetitive?" Forget all your academic parsings and minor scholarly
disputes and return to the moment you first began truly to read The Aeneid--
to the wonder of that marvelous opening: an enraged woman, too oft scorned
(according to her), lost in her own foolish plots of revenge and twisted
sense of justice, her simpering helpmate, abetting her every nonsensical
demand since "her owes her," etc., etc. and all that in the first hundred
or so lines... and the LATIN! "Ecce deus ramum Lethaeo rore madentem/vique
soporatum Stygia super utraque quassat/ tempora, cunctantique natantia
lumina solvit..." (V, 854-856)...
The Aeneid is a poem of extraordinary intelligence and elegance. It
must
be read and reread constantly. The Georgics and Eclogues are, in a word,
pleasant but clearly not the full measure of the poet...
JA Greeley
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Randi C
Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 1:40 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Christian Hess
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
o.edu> cc: (bcc: Randi C
Sent by: Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re :
VIRGIL: Vergil's
oninet.com murder
10/05/00 01:14 PM Please respond to mantovano
I will preface this by saying that I am a great admirer of the Georgics and the Eclogues, and that the ideas, while incorrect, are interesting to say the least. I have serious issue with your proposition that the Aeneid is a 'nearly perfect' work. Stylistically, it falls far below the mark of Vergil's previous works; as a whole, while presenting a vaguely interesting narrative, it is unwieldy, and often (and I doubt this is simply a quick nod to the epic style) repetitive and cumbersome
--I'm surprised that everyone on Mantovano would let this remark pass
without comment. While the style of the Eclogues and the Georgics may be
more polished, it is absurd to dismiss the _Aeneid_ as just a "vaguely
interesting narrative." On the contrary--has anything more gripping than
the Aeneid, more central to the concerns of Western society, ever been
written?
I don't have time to expatiate on this, but I would like to hear from
others.Randi Eldevik Associate Professor Oklahoma State University
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Oct 14 10:00:01 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:29:43 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id QAA21560; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 16:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 17:00:55 -0700 From: JAMES C Wiersum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: The Aeneid's Quality Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 7,18,28-29 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I think part of the argument about whether or not the Aeneid is "worthy"
has to do with the great change in language studies in the 19th century.
Suddenly Greek became the language. Suddenly Homer was put in the place
of Virgil. Suddenly Latin took a back seat to the "superiority" of Greek.
You see this in all kinds of ways. Clyde Pharr's Virgil (just the first
six books) seems to suggest in the introduction that Virgil is not quite
up to the quality of Homer. In Pharr's book -- grammar -- on Homer he is
down right chirpy about his praise of Homer.
Now I think Homer is great too. But we have been living in a great
cultural sea change. For centuries Virgil was the poet. For Dante he is
his guide and almost god. For Spencer he is his great example. Though I
am no Latin expert, I believe Spencer's Shepheardes Calendar is the
closest thing we have to how Virgil's Eclogues are (sound, quality,
feeling) in the Latin. Now Homer is the poet. To say whether he will
continue to be the poet remains to be seen. Virgil's appreciation has
actually been longer than Homer's. Homer for centuries was simply not
known. It is too early to tell what will happen. Then too, we are living
in what Harold Bloom calls "the Age of Chaos." But even Bloom, its
critic, believes the Aeneid is inferior to Homer.
On a personal level Virgil speaks to me more than does Homer. I can see
why Dante took him as a guide. It wasn't just about style. To me the
Aeneid is about the pilgrimage of one's life. The Aeneid is a book of
wisdom. (As a footnote, this wisdom has even carried over to Wall Street.
Benjamin Graham's famous and constantly republished book "The Intelligent
Investor," -- Graham was an amateur Classical scholar -- Graham was the
"Father" of Value Investing and the "God Father" to Wall Street legend
Warren Buffett -- has the following quote from the Aeneid opposite the
title page: "Through chances various, through all vicissitudes, we make
our way...")James C. Wiersum -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:03:48 +0800
From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: VIRGIL: multiple threads
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In the meantime, those who _wish_ to pursue the murder thread should continue to do so, I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OK, but if the nutty murder thread goes on much more, I'll unsubscribe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Oct 14 10:00:13 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 14 Oct 2000 02:21:30 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id XAA23621; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 23:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:49:53 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Priority: 1 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-rt-5.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.159] claimed to be bassia.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I totally agree. And is not the very perfection (or quasi-perfection) of the Aeneid a powerful argument against the likehood that Vergil would have embarked for a three years journey before publishing his epic, and even at the risk of having it destroyed for ever? J.-Y. Maleuvre http://virgilmurder.org ----------
De : "June-Ann Greeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Objet : RE: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Date : Ven 13 oct 2000 23:17
Indeed, indeed-- all this nonsense about the Aeneid NOT being a remarkable piece of literature--Good Heavens! It is probably the first truly great literary narrative in the west. How can anyone consider the style "boring" or "repetitive?" Forget all your academic parsings and minor scholarly disputes and return to the moment you first began truly to read The Aeneid-- to the wonder of that marvelous opening: an enraged woman, too oft scorned (according to her), lost in her own foolish plots of revenge and twisted sense of justice, her simpering helpmate, abetting her every nonsensical demand since "her owes her," etc., etc. and all that in the first hundred or so lines... and the LATIN! "Ecce deus ramum Lethaeo rore madentem/vique soporatum Stygia super utraque quassat/ tempora, cunctantique natantia lumina solvit..." (V, 854-856)... The Aeneid is a poem of extraordinary intelligence and elegance. It must be read and reread constantly. The Georgics and Eclogues are, in a word, pleasant but clearly not the full measure of the poet... JA Greeley -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Randi C Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 1:40 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
Christian Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] o.edu> cc: (bcc: Randi C Sent by: Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's oninet.com murder
10/05/00 01:14 PM Please respond to mantovano
I will preface this by saying that I am a great admirer of the Georgics and the Eclogues, and that the ideas, while incorrect, are interesting to say the least. I have serious issue with your proposition that the Aeneid is a 'nearly perfect' work. Stylistically, it falls far below the mark of Vergil's previous works; as a whole, while presenting a vaguely interesting narrative, it is unwieldy, and often (and I doubt this is simply a quick nod to the epic style) repetitive and cumbersome
--I'm surprised that everyone on Mantovano would let this remark pass without comment. While the style of the Eclogues and the Georgics may be more polished, it is absurd to dismiss the _Aeneid_ as just a "vaguely interesting narrative." On the contrary--has anything more gripping than the Aeneid, more central to the concerns of Western society, ever been written? I don't have time to expatiate on this, but I would like to hear from others.
Randi Eldevik Associate Professor Oklahoma State University
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The Aeneid is a poem of extraordinary intelligence and elegance. It must be read and reread constantly.<
I totally agree. And is not the very perfection (or quasi-perfection) of the Aeneid a powerful argument against the likehood that Vergil would have embarked for a three years journey before publishing his epic, and even at the risk of having it destroyed for ever? J.-Y. Maleuvre http://virgilmurder.org ----------
De : "June-Ann Greeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Objet : RE: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder Date : Ven 13 oct 2000 23:17
Indeed, indeed-- all this nonsense about the Aeneid NOT being a remarkable piece of literature--Good Heavens! It is probably the first truly great literary narrative in the west. How can anyone consider the style "boring" or "repetitive?" Forget all your academic parsings and minor scholarly disputes and return to the moment you first began truly to read The Aeneid-- to the wonder of that marvelous opening: an enraged woman, too oft scorned (according to her), lost in her own foolish plots of revenge and twisted sense of justice, her simpering helpmate, abetting her every nonsensical demand since "her owes her," etc., etc. and all that in the first hundred or so lines... and the LATIN! "Ecce deus ramum Lethaeo rore madentem/vique soporatum Stygia super utraque quassat/ tempora, cunctantique natantia lumina solvit..." (V, 854-856)... The Aeneid is a poem of extraordinary intelligence and elegance. It must be read and reread constantly. The Georgics and Eclogues are, in a word, pleasant but clearly not the full measure of the poet... JA Greeley -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Randi C Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 1:40 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder
Christian Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] o.edu> cc: (bcc: Randi C Sent by: Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's oninet.com murder
10/05/00 01:14 PM Please respond to mantovano
I will preface this by saying that I am a great admirer of the Georgics and the Eclogues, and that the ideas, while incorrect, are interesting to say the least. I have serious issue with your proposition that the Aeneid is a 'nearly perfect' work. Stylistically, it falls far below the mark of Vergil's previous works; as a whole, while presenting a vaguely interesting narrative, it is unwieldy, and often (and I doubt this is simply a quick nod to the epic style) repetitive and cumbersome
--I'm surprised that everyone on Mantovano would let this remark pass without comment. While the style of the Eclogues and the Georgics may be more polished, it is absurd to dismiss the _Aeneid_ as just a "vaguely interesting narrative." On the contrary--has anything more gripping than the Aeneid, more central to the concerns of Western society, ever been written? I don't have time to expatiate on this, but I would like to hear from others.
Randi Eldevik Associate Professor Oklahoma State University
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JAMES C Wiersum schrieb:
I think part of the argument about whether or not the Aeneid is "worthy" has to do with the great change in language studies in the 19th century.
We should not forget the change that happened some centuries before, in the Renaissance: classic studies in the schools and universities of medievum based more on Ecloga than on Aeneis; the elements of language and poetrical forms were learned, imitated and renewed by the Eclogues, although the Aeneis was known and imitated in old French and medieval German.
Suddenly Greek became the language. Suddenly Homer was put in the place
of Virgil.
no, it was'nt the place of Maro, Maro was sitting on the wrong place. It was the seat of Homer. the original root was found, the Roman secondary (re-)creation became transparent: Aeneis is only the thumbnail for the two original pictures, the Homeric epics.
Suddenly Latin took a back seat to the "superiority" of Greek.
You see this in all kinds of ways. Clyde Pharr's Virgil (just the first
six books) seems to suggest in the introduction that Virgil is not quite
up to the quality of Homer. In Pharr's book -- grammar -- on Homer he is
down right chirpy about his praise of Homer.
Now I think Homer is great too. But we have been living in a great
cultural sea change. For centuries Virgil was the poet. For Dante he is
his guide and almost god. For Spencer he is his great example. Though I
am no Latin expert, I believe Spencer's Shepheardes Calendar is the
closest thing we have to how Virgil's Eclogues are (sound, quality,
feeling) in the Latin. Now Homer is the poet. To say whether he will
continue to be the poet remains to be seen. Virgil's appreciation has
actually been longer than Homer's. Homer for centuries was simply not
known.
the treasure was hidden, who will compare it with the copy?
And in our time ("what Harold Bloom calls the Age of Chaos") we have a lot of treasures, which had been hidden under ignorance for a long time: the great epic poems in old French and medieval German, for example Perceval (Chretien de Troyes/ Wolfram von Eschenbach) or Tristan (Gottfried von Strassburg); or the great epic poems in Sanskrit: Mahabharata and Ramayana. Mahabharata has about 100,000 verses (mostly Shloka). Of course this all is too much: but cutting out the silhouette of "classics" - what will remain? Maro? yes, he will, but with Ecloga and Georgica.
On a personal level Virgil speaks to me more than does Homer. I can see
why Dante took him as a guide. It wasn't just about style. To me the
Aeneid is about the pilgrimage of one's life.
more than the Odyssee?
The Aeneid is a book of wisdom.
more than Maro's archetypoi, more than the Odyssee? more than the Ilias-archetypoi which were used by Maro?
more than the Eclogues and Georgics?
grusz, hansz
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June-Ann Greeley schrieb:
Indeed, indeed-- all this nonsense about the Aeneid NOT being a remarkable
piece of literature--Good Heavens! It is probably the first truly great
literary narrative in the west.
what is "the west"? Seattle? the first truly great literary narrative in Europe is Homer's Ilias - and she was read not only in the Greek cultured east of mare nostrum, but also in Roma. so - if your conception of "the west" means the western Roman imperium: they used to read the Ilias.
How can anyone consider the style "boring"
or "repetitive?" Forget all your academic parsings and minor scholarly
disputes and return to the moment you first began truly to read The Aeneid--
to the wonder of that marvelous opening: an enraged woman, too oft scorned
(according to her), lost in her own foolish plots of revenge and twisted
sense of justice, her simpering helpmate, abetting her every nonsensical
demand since "her owes her," etc., etc. and all that in the first hundred
or so lines... and the LATIN!
exactly that I wrote in the following lines some months ago, but nobody answered it; now I see your letter, asking for the "moment I first began to read Aeneis":
for example the prooemium and the first 33 verses:
after the prooemium there are only three sentences: "urbs antiqua fuit..." till "fovetque" the first, then from "progeniem..." till "sic volvere parcas" the second, the third beginning with "id metuens..." ending with "omnia circum", a closing sententia behind: "tantae molis erat Romanam condere gentem". this last pretty (the third) sentence has only 10 lines, (with the closing sententia 11), and of course it is full of enjembements (wich seem to be more a lack of poetic flight than a good figure of style): line 25 to 26, 26 to 27, 29 to 30; and see these parentheseis (wich seem to be more a lack of fluid syntax than a transparent architecture) - parentheseis! - they disrupt the tale in verse 12, from 16 to 17, from 25 to 28 (according the climax-law of growing members), new beginning with "his accensa..." (after this scratch on the ground of an overlasting past). lucky Sisyphos! is it irony, that after this net of nods, this cyclopic wall, after this heavy and molest try to answer the former question "tantaene animis caelestibus irae?" Maro gives his last sigh: "tantae molis erat..."?
I prefer the Bucolica (Ecloga) and the Georgica; and they are not only pleasant, but also rich, wise, awakening the hidden regions of the archetypical mind deep in us.
Ecl.4 only "pleasant" ("arbusta")? hmmm.
grusz, hansz
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Oct 14 10:00:26 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 14 Oct 2000 06:27:27 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id DAA09861; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 03:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:40:58 +0100 From: Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: In praise of the Eclogues and Georgics In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host mail2.mail.iol.ie [194.125.2.193] claimed to be mail.iol.ie Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
This is the first time I have cared to enter into this discussion, and it is largely to second Hans' praise of the Georgics and Bucolics. Withourt wishing to slight the Aeneid, the Bucolics and the Georgics are not only technichally brilliant, repaying every visit, line by line, phrase by phrase, but they do reach deep into the heart. At several times in my life I have gone to them and received what could best be described as the 'consolations of religion'. I am not surprised that the man who had written them might have ideas of perfection much more exacing than our own and would have intended to spend three years in revision and even to destroy that which he felt was not yet 'right'. Helen Conrad-O'Briain
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:43:58 +0200 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Re : Aeneidis qualitas linguae ac eloquentiae
June-Ann Greeley schrieb:Indeed, indeed-- all this nonsense about the Aeneid NOT being a remarkable piece of literature--Good Heavens! It is probably the first truly great literary narrative in the west.
what is "the west"? Seattle? the first truly great literary narrative in
Europe is Homer's Ilias - and she was read not only in the Greek cultured east of
mare nostrum, but also in Roma. so - if your conception of "the west" means the
western Roman imperium: they used to read the Ilias.
How can anyone consider the style "boring" or "repetitive?" Forget all your academic parsings and minor scholarly disputes and return to the moment you first began truly to read The Aeneid-- to the wonder of that marvelous opening: an enraged woman, too oft scorned (according to her), lost in her own foolish plots of revenge and twisted sense of justice, her simpering helpmate, abetting her every nonsensical demand since "her owes her," etc., etc. and all that in the first hundred or so lines... and the LATIN!
exactly that I wrote in the following lines some months ago, but nobody
answered it; now I see your letter, asking for the "moment I first began to read
Aeneis":
for example the prooemium and the first 33 verses:
after the prooemium there are only three sentences:
"urbs antiqua fuit..." till "fovetque" the first,
then from "progeniem..." till "sic volvere parcas" the second,
the third beginning with "id metuens..." ending with "omnia circum", a closing
sententia behind: "tantae molis erat Romanam condere gentem".
this last pretty (the third) sentence has only 10 lines, (with the closing
sententia 11), and of course it is full of enjembements (wich seem to be more
a lack of poetic flight than a good figure of style): line 25 to 26, 26 to 27,
29 to 30; and see these parentheseis (wich seem to be more a lack of fluid syntax than a
transparent architecture) - parentheseis! - they disrupt the tale in verse 12,
from 16 to 17, from 25 to 28 (according the climax-law of growing members),
new beginning with "his accensa..." (after this scratch on the ground of an
overlasting past). lucky Sisyphos!
is it irony, that after this net of nods, this cyclopic wall, after this heavy
and molest try to answer the former question "tantaene animis caelestibus
irae?" Maro gives his last sigh: "tantae molis erat..."?
I prefer the Bucolica (Ecloga) and the Georgica; and they are not only
pleasant, but also rich, wise, awakening the hidden regions of the archetypical mind
deep in us.
Ecl.4 only "pleasant" ("arbusta")? hmmm.
grusz, hansz
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Vergil vs Homer? Is it necessary to rekindle an age-old dispute? Unquestionably, Homer is the father. Sometimes sons surpass fathers, sometimes not. Vergil has vast admiration for Homer, and he owes him much. But reciprocally Homer owes much to Vergil, for whoever wants to fully understand the Aeneid must read the Iliad and the Odyssey. Vergil wanted to give his reader in 12 Books the essence of Homer-s 48 Books. Have he succeeded? A thing is sure, he had an advantage on his predecessor, since he could benefit from six centuries of Greek literature, included the Hellenistic scholias on Homer (Zoilos as well as Aristarchos). Adde quod the traditional Vergil who could dispute the first place to Homer was only, as it were, a half-Vergil. I mean that as soon as we become aware of the fantastic subtext that accompanies the Aeneid as it goes along, secretly reversing its apparent meaning, our admiration for the Mantuan increases considerably. If his impressive literary achievement won him the poets¹ laurel, his heroic opposition to despotism brought him, with a tragic death, the righteous¹ palm. He joined, as says Sully Prudhomme, *le laurier du poète à la palme du juste*. J.-Y. M. ----------
De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: VIRGIL: The Aeneid's Quality Date : Sam 14 oct 2000 9:43
JAMES C Wiersum schrieb:I think part of the argument about whether or not the Aeneid is "worthy" has to do with the great change in language studies in the 19th century.
We should not forget the change that happened some centuries before, in the Renaissance: classic studies in the schools and universities of medievum based more on Ecloga than on Aeneis; the elements of language and poetrical forms were learned, imitated and renewed by the Eclogues, although the Aeneis was known and imitated in old French and medieval German.
Suddenly Greek became the language. Suddenly Homer was put in the place
of Virgil.
no, it was'nt the place of Maro, Maro was sitting on the wrong place. It was the seat of Homer. the original root was found, the Roman secondary (re-)creation became transparent: Aeneis is only the thumbnail for the two original pictures, the Homeric epics.
Suddenly Latin took a back seat to the "superiority" of Greek.
You see this in all kinds of ways. Clyde Pharr's Virgil (just the first
six books) seems to suggest in the introduction that Virgil is not quite
up to the quality of Homer. In Pharr's book -- grammar -- on Homer he is
down right chirpy about his praise of Homer.
Now I think Homer is great too. But we have been living in a great
cultural sea change. For centuries Virgil was the poet. For Dante he is
his guide and almost god. For Spencer he is his great example. Though I
am no Latin expert, I believe Spencer's Shepheardes Calendar is the
closest thing we have to how Virgil's Eclogues are (sound, quality,
feeling) in the Latin. Now Homer is the poet. To say whether he will
continue to be the poet remains to be seen. Virgil's appreciation has
actually been longer than Homer's. Homer for centuries was simply not
known.
the treasure was hidden, who will compare it with the copy?
And in our time ("what Harold Bloom calls the Age of Chaos") we have a lot of treasures, which had been hidden under ignorance for a long time: the great epic poems in old French and medieval German, for example Perceval (Chretien de Troyes/ Wolfram von Eschenbach) or Tristan (Gottfried von Strassburg); or the great epic poems in Sanskrit: Mahabharata and Ramayana. Mahabharata has about 100,000 verses (mostly Shloka). Of course this all is too much: but cutting out the silhouette of "classics" - what will remain? Maro? yes, he will, but with Ecloga and Georgica.
On a personal level Virgil speaks to me more than does Homer. I can see
why Dante took him as a guide. It wasn't just about style. To me the
Aeneid is about the pilgrimage of one's life.
more than the Odyssee?
The Aeneid is a book of wisdom.
more than Maro's archetypoi, more than the Odyssee? more than the Ilias-archetypoi which were used by Maro?
more than the Eclogues and Georgics?
grusz, hansz
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Oct 14 11:24:23 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:16:02 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA04776; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:29:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Christian Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: In praise of the Eclogues and Georgics In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: harper.uchicago.edu: cwhess owned process doing -bs Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
All right; after my first post mocking the Aeneid, I will try to pose this as a more
level-headed question, sine ira et studio.
Firstly, I also prefer the Georgics and the Eclogues to the Aeneid; the
eclogues because they will allow wit and variation on a much smaller and
more personal scale than epic will allow, and the Georgics, admittedly,
because I enjoy gardening. But ignoring the personal and subjective, why do we see the Aeneid as a
work of great literature; what about it commends itself to the reader? It
is not useful to argue that its place in 'western' (Seattle?) literature
alone makes it a great work.
Nor am I arguing that the Aeneid is inferior to, say, the Iliad or the
Gilgamesh epic. Comparison on a larger scale may bring to light personal
preference, but the criticism of the Aeneid must be stylistic as well as
narratological. I think we have gone beyond the evaluation of the Aeneid
as a morally didactic work. So, why is the Aeneid greater or worse than,
say, Lucan, or the Thebaid? Or, if we expand that, why do we praise Vergil
and condemn Martial or the Pseudo-Vergilian stuff as merely interesting
and charming. In other words, I would assert that the Aeneid is
stylistically cumbersome and inferior in the context of its own literary
culture.
This does not mean I believe we should ignore it (though I have toyed with
the thought that maybe it best should have been burned after all). We
should, however, expose both its merits and flaws, an exploration which
prejudiced praise can not provide.
If any of you are interested in discussing this and dropping this absurd tom-foolery of Vergil's murder, please let me know. If not, I will go gentle into that good night and lurk again.
c.w. hess
..............................................................................
"...and I leave my entire vast estate of 10 million dollars to the people of Calgary so they can afford to move somewhere decent!"
-The Frantics, Last Will and Temperament
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At 01:20 PM 10/11/00 +0200, Jean-Yves Maleuvre wrote:
Scholars should keep in mind that Augustus had total control on the sources and medias, and that he could manipulate them as he liked.
This sounds like an exaggeration to me, and a discredited one at that: see now Karl Galinsky (in _Augustan Culture_, on the relative independence of coin-makers under the princeps) and Peter White (in _Promised Verse_, on patronage in the age of Augustan).
----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://geoffreychaucer.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Chaucer: An Annotated Guide to Online Resources ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Oct 14 12:52:17 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:46:19 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id JAA10556; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:13:49 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: In praise of the Eclogues and Georgics In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
At 11:40 AM 10/14/00 +0100, Helen Conrad-O'Briain wrote:
This is the first time I have cared to enter into this discussion, and it is largely to second Hans' praise of the Georgics and Bucolics. Withourt wishing to slight the Aeneid, the Bucolics and the Georgics are not only technichally brilliant, repaying every visit, line by line, phrase by phrase, but they do reach deep into the heart. At several times in my life I have gone to them and received what could best be described as the 'consolations of religion'. I am not surprised that the man who had written them might have ideas of perfection much more exacing than our own and would have intended to spend three years in revision and even to destroy that which he felt was not yet 'right'.
It has been a somewhat contentious week on a list that is ordinarily rather
quiet. I think the contention has been fruitful, and for the most part
civil, and I am loth to say let's stop. Having said that, I am also glad
that Hans and Helen have opened up a new thread. Can we hear more? In
particular, I'm interested in learning about how people came to these poems
in the first place: was it through teachers? books? landscapes? If so,
which ones?
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At 10:29 AM 10/14/00 -0500, someone wrote:
If any of you are interested in discussing this and dropping this absurd tom-foolery of Vergil's murder, please let me know. If not, I will go gentle into that good night and lurk again.
Need we choose? Personally, I'd prefer to hear, think, and write more about the Eclogues and the Georgics. In the meantime, those who _wish_ to pursue the murder thread should continue to do so, I think.
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At 10:29 AM 10/14/00 -0500, c.w. hess wrote:
In other words, I would assert that the Aeneid is stylistically cumbersome and inferior in the context of its own literary culture.
If I may return to a question LH-S raised earlier this week, do you have any particular passages in mind?
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i dont want anymore of this crap, take me off the list -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 19:03:28 +0100
From: Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: VIRGIL: In praise of the Eclogues and Georgics
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When I set out to learn Latin I was told that there were two things I should
read thoroughly if I read nothing else - The Psalms and Vergil. I already
knew the Psalms in English - not all by heart, but many of them. With
Vergil I began at the beginning and the opening lines of the first Eclogue
was a revelation. I had spent eight years of my life living in the country
in a landscape of small, old fashioned farms, and I missed it (and still
miss it at times) very much. Vergil was an old friend before I ever met
him.
Helen COB
From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:13:49 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: In praise of the Eclogues and Georgics
At 11:40 AM 10/14/00 +0100, Helen Conrad-O'Briain wrote:This is the first time I have cared to enter into this discussion, and it is largely to second Hans' praise of the Georgics and Bucolics. Withourt wishing to slight the Aeneid, the Bucolics and the Georgics are not only technichally brilliant, repaying every visit, line by line, phrase by phrase, but they do reach deep into the heart. At several times in my life I have gone to them and received what could best be described as the 'consolations of religion'. I am not surprised that the man who had written them might have ideas of perfection much more exacing than our own and would have intended to spend three years in revision and even to destroy that which he felt was not yet 'right'.
It has been a somewhat contentious week on a list that is ordinarily rather
quiet. I think the contention has been fruitful, and for the most part
civil, and I am loth to say let's stop. Having said that, I am also glad
that Hans and Helen have opened up a new thread. Can we hear more? In
particular, I'm interested in learning about how people came to these poems
in the first place: was it through teachers? books? landscapes? If so,
which ones?
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Oct 15 10:06:28 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:02:50 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id LAA25063; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:15:30 -0500 From: Randi C Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: The Aeneid's Quality Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.1a August 17, 1999 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on osu-ns05/Okstate(Release 5.0.4 |June 8, 2000) at 10/14/2000 01:15:31 PM Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I can't help but think that James Wiersum's remarks (below) are going off on a tangent. The issue was NOT the Aeneid vs. the Iliad & Odyssey, but the Aeneid vs. the Eclogues and Georgics. Or, not even that, exactly -- after all, I have nothing against the Eclogues and Georgics; I admire them wholeheartedly, in fact, and I don't think there has to be rivalry, or a contest. But one can admire the Eclogues & Georgics without disparaging the Aeneid as only a "vaguely interesting narrative." David W-O asked how various people first came across the Aeneid, and what excited us. For me, it was as an undergraduate in first-year Honors Latin. I had never come across an English translation of the Aeneid before, so I had the advantage of encountering Virgil's own words, from the outset, without any intermediary or preconceptions. And I must say, considering the poetry of the Aeneid _qua_ poetry, I have never encountered any other poetry, in any language, more beautiful. (Below you will see me, going off on the Wiersum tangent and talking briefly about what I value in Homer. But I like the _sound_ of Homer's Greek less than I like the _sound_ of Virgil's Latin.) Prior to studying the Aeneid, I had read Lattimore's translation of the Iliad, so I already had some notion of what classical epic was. And eventually I went on to study Greek, too, so that I wasn't limited to translations of Homer. But it wasn't Lattimore's Iliad alone that motivated me to do that (though it provided some impetus) -- rather, it was my fascination with the Aeneid and my desire to become better acquainted with Virgil's sources. In the 20-odd years since then, I have come prize Homer's epics for their own sake and not just as predecessors of the Aeneid. In fact, to be perfectly honest, the Iliad has actually grown to take first place in my personal affection; I find myself going back to it more often than to the Aeneid. There is an inexhaustible richness in the Iliad; nothing else repays re-reading more, I find. But to say that the Aeneid has taken second place for me is not to say that it is uninteresting or unimportant. The Aeneid is THE story of westward imperialism and expansion, suffused with both exultation and regretful misgivings. It reflects a geopolitical trend that (like it or not) was to continue for 2000 years more, as various successor-empires hearkened back to the Roman model. Thanks to _translatio imperii_, the Spanish, the French, the British, et al. -- Euro-Americans are included in this too, of course -- must, like Virgil, wrestle with qualms of conscience as we ruminate on "tantae molis erat . . . condere gentem." For most people on this list, the unavoidable fact is that whatever prosperity we have in our lives is owing to that process of westward expansion, and is at other people's expense. We may deplore this situation, but we cannot escape complicity in it. The subject-matter itself, therefore, is one reason the Aeneid is of greater import than Lucan, Statius, and so forth. That, and Virgil's remarkable approach to his subject-matter: his unwillingness to confine himself (as he so easily could have) to simple, whole-hearted triumphalism; his undercutting of triumphalism with human sensitivity and compassion, in lines such as "Sunt lacrimae rerum et mentem mortalia tangunt." With that I rest my case. Randi Eldevik Oklahoma State University
JAMES C Wiersum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: cc: (bcc: Randi C [EMAIL PROTECTED] Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate) oninet.com Subject: VIRGIL: The Aeneid's Quality 10/13/00 07:00 PM Please respond to mantovano
I think part of the argument about whether or not the Aeneid is
"worthy"
has to do with the great change in language studies in the 19th century.
Suddenly Greek became the language. Suddenly Homer was put in the place
of Virgil. Suddenly Latin took a back seat to the "superiority" of Greek.
You see this in all kinds of ways. Clyde Pharr's Virgil (just the first
six books) seems to suggest in the introduction that Virgil is not quite
up to the quality of Homer. In Pharr's book -- grammar -- on Homer he is
down right chirpy about his praise of Homer.
Now I think Homer is great too. But we have been living in a
great
cultural sea change. For centuries Virgil was the poet. For Dante he is
his guide and almost god. For Spencer he is his great example. Though I
am no Latin expert, I believe Spencer's Shepheardes Calendar is the
closest thing we have to how Virgil's Eclogues are (sound, quality,
feeling) in the Latin. Now Homer is the poet. To say whether he will
continue to be the poet remains to be seen. Virgil's appreciation has
actually been longer than Homer's. Homer for centuries was simply not
known. It is too early to tell what will happen. Then too, we are living
in what Harold Bloom calls "the Age of Chaos." But even Bloom, its
critic, believes the Aeneid is inferior to Homer.
On a personal level Virgil speaks to me more than does Homer. I
can see
why Dante took him as a guide. It wasn't just about style. To me the
Aeneid is about the pilgrimage of one's life. The Aeneid is a book of
wisdom. (As a footnote, this wisdom has even carried over to Wall Street.
Benjamin Graham's famous and constantly republished book "The Intelligent
Investor," -- Graham was an amateur Classical scholar -- Graham was the
"Father" of Value Investing and the "God Father" to Wall Street legend
Warren Buffett -- has the following quote from the Aeneid opposite the
title page: "Through chances various, through all vicissitudes, we make
our way...")James C. Wiersum ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
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In a message dated 10/14/00 1:04:48PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< >If any of you are interested in discussing this and dropping this absurd
tom-foolery of Vergil's murder, please let me know. If not, I will go gentle into that good night and lurk again.
Need we choose? Personally, I'd prefer to hear, think, and write more about the Eclogues and the Georgics. In the meantime, those who _wish_ to pursue the murder thread should continue to do so, I think. >>
anyone feels the need to disparage it with a term like "tom foolery". Even if that is how you personally feel--it seems uncivil to say so in this context. Others may find it interesting. If you don't, then simply delete those posts. Debi in PAI agree. I don't see any problem with the thread and don't understand why
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Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 10:57:31 +0200
From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re : VIRGIL: In praise of the Eclogues and Georgics
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In other words, I would assert that the Aeneid is stylistically cumbersome and inferior in the context of its own literary culture.> this absurd tom-foolery of Vergil's murder>
You honor me too much in associating my theory with the divine Aeneid in your contempt. But it is a pity you were lurking during our examination of the chapter *Coincidences* of virgilmurder.org. You would certainly have helped. However it is not too late, since the discussion of the actual evidence has not yet begun. It will tomorrow. >If not, I will go
gentle into that good night and lurk again.>
Oramus, si forte non molestum est, demonstres ubi sint tuae tenebrae. Audacter, committe, crede luci. :-)) J.-Y.M. http://virgilmurder.org ----------
De : Christian Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: VIRGIL: In praise of the Eclogues and Georgics Date : Sam 14 oct 2000 17:29
All right; after my first post mocking the Aeneid, I will try to pose this as a more
level-headed question, sine ira et studio.
Firstly, I also prefer the Georgics and the Eclogues to the Aeneid; the
eclogues because they will allow wit and variation on a much smaller and
more personal scale than epic will allow, and the Georgics, admittedly,
because I enjoy gardening. But ignoring the personal and subjective, why do we see the Aeneid as a
work of great literature; what about it commends itself to the reader? It
is not useful to argue that its place in 'western' (Seattle?) literature
alone makes it a great work.
Nor am I arguing that the Aeneid is inferior to, say, the Iliad or the
Gilgamesh epic. Comparison on a larger scale may bring to light personal
preference, but the criticism of the Aeneid must be stylistic as well as
narratological. I think we have gone beyond the evaluation of the Aeneid
as a morally didactic work. So, why is the Aeneid greater or worse than,
say, Lucan, or the Thebaid? Or, if we expand that, why do we praise Vergil
and condemn Martial or the Pseudo-Vergilian stuff as merely interesting
and charming. In other words, I would assert that the Aeneid is
stylistically cumbersome and inferior in the context of its own literary
culture.
This does not mean I believe we should ignore it (though I have toyed with
the thought that maybe it best should have been burned after all). We
should, however, expose both its merits and flaws, an exploration which
prejudiced praise can not provide.
If any of you are interested in discussing this and dropping this absurd tom-foolery of Vergil's murder, please let me know. If not, I will go gentle into that good night and lurk again.
c.w. hess
..............................................................................
"...and I leave my entire vast estate of 10 million dollars to the people of Calgary so they can afford to move somewhere decent!"
-The Frantics, Last Will and Temperament
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What¹s the point of setting Ecl. and Georg. against the Aeneid? Admitting that the latter still needed three years of revision (an exorbitant concession for many of us), the best way to do that was probably not to embark for a three years tour. Regards. J.-Y. M. http://virgilmurder.org ----------
De : Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Objet : VIRGIL: In praise of the Eclogues and Georgics Date : Sam 14 oct 2000 12:40
This is the first time I have cared to enter into this discussion, and it is largely to second Hans' praise of the Georgics and Bucolics. Withourt wishing to slight the Aeneid, the Bucolics and the Georgics are not only technichally brilliant, repaying every visit, line by line, phrase by phrase, but they do reach deep into the heart. At several times in my life I have gone to them and received what could best be described as the 'consolations of religion'. I am not surprised that the man who had written them might have ideas of perfection much more exacing than our own and would have intended to spend three years in revision and even to destroy that which he felt was not yet 'right'. Helen Conrad-O'Briain
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:43:58 +0200 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Re : Aeneidis qualitas linguae ac eloquentiae
June-Ann Greeley schrieb:Indeed, indeed-- all this nonsense about the Aeneid NOT being a remarkable piece of literature--Good Heavens! It is probably the first truly great literary narrative in the west.
what is "the west"? Seattle? the first truly great literary narrative in
Europe is Homer's Ilias - and she was read not only in the Greek cultured east of
mare nostrum, but also in Roma. so - if your conception of "the west" means the
western Roman imperium: they used to read the Ilias.
How can anyone consider the style "boring" or "repetitive?" Forget all your academic parsings and minor scholarly disputes and return to the moment you first began truly to read The Aeneid-- to the wonder of that marvelous opening: an enraged woman, too oft scorned (according to her), lost in her own foolish plots of revenge and twisted sense of justice, her simpering helpmate, abetting her every nonsensical demand since "her owes her," etc., etc. and all that in the first hundred or so lines... and the LATIN!
exactly that I wrote in the following lines some months ago, but nobody
answered it; now I see your letter, asking for the "moment I first began to read
Aeneis":
for example the prooemium and the first 33 verses:
after the prooemium there are only three sentences:
"urbs antiqua fuit..." till "fovetque" the first,
then from "progeniem..." till "sic volvere parcas" the second,
the third beginning with "id metuens..." ending with "omnia circum", a closing
sententia behind: "tantae molis erat Romanam condere gentem".
this last pretty (the third) sentence has only 10 lines, (with the closing
sententia 11), and of course it is full of enjembements (wich seem to be more
a lack of poetic flight than a good figure of style): line 25 to 26, 26 to 27,
29 to 30; and see these parentheseis (wich seem to be more a lack of fluid syntax than a
transparent architecture) - parentheseis! - they disrupt the tale in verse 12,
from 16 to 17, from 25 to 28 (according the climax-law of growing members),
new beginning with "his accensa..." (after this scratch on the ground of an
overlasting past). lucky Sisyphos!
is it irony, that after this net of nods, this cyclopic wall, after this heavy
and molest try to answer the former question "tantaene animis caelestibus
irae?" Maro gives his last sigh: "tantae molis erat..."?
I prefer the Bucolica (Ecloga) and the Georgica; and they are not only
pleasant, but also rich, wise, awakening the hidden regions of the archetypical mind
deep in us.
Ecl.4 only "pleasant" ("arbusta")? hmmm.
grusz, hansz
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Well, admittedly there could remain some spots of freedom in an ocean of despotism, but on the whole Augustus had control. See for instance P. Zanker, B. Kellum, A. Fraschetti. So it doesn¹t seem exaggerated to state that the Princeps could impose his own version of Virgil¹s death. Regards. J.-Y.M.
----------
De : David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: VIRGIL: Murder or ambivalence? Date : Sam 14 oct 2000 17:37
At 01:20 PM 10/11/00 +0200, Jean-Yves Maleuvre wrote:Scholars should keep in mind that Augustus had total control on the sources and medias, and that he could manipulate them as he liked.
This sounds like an exaggeration to me, and a discredited one at that: see now Karl Galinsky (in _Augustan Culture_, on the relative independence of coin-makers under the princeps) and Peter White (in _Promised Verse_, on patronage in the age of Augustan).
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Salvete omnes,
Since Jim O¹Hara did not answer to my last message, I suppose he
admits that an impartial examination of the circumstances of Vergil¹s death
can easily (and objectively, Jim) lead to the suspicion that perhaps the
poet did not die of a natural cause.
So perhaps we can now proceed to the discussion of the actual
evidence, beginning from the chapter *Architecture des Odes I-III*, which
aims to find out in the arrangement of Books 1-3 of Horace-s Odes signs that
the edition we have in hands today have been preceded by another one, where
the first Book contained 36 poems instead of 38, and the second Book 17
instead of 20.
How did I select the five additional pieces (1.3; 1.28; 2.6; 2.9;
2.20), I am afraid it would be too long to expound here (see *La mort de
Virgile*). So I just submit here some of the most striking figures I found:
-BOOK I:
-The total of lines is now 800 instead of 876.
-36 is the number of odes as well as the number of lines of the first pieceFrom
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Oct 15 19:29:55 2000
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Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 13:33:11 -0500
From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Horace's Odes; appropriateness?
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Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]At 07:34 PM 10/15/00 +0200, J.-Y. Maleuvre wrote:
Since Jim O'Hara did not answer to my last message, I suppose he admits that an impartial examination of the circumstances of Vergil¹s death can easily (and objectively, Jim) lead to the suspicion that perhaps the poet did not die of a natural cause.
It sounds to me like you're winding up to take us through a set of texts and arguments on which you have already published extensively. I'm not sure, though, that Mantovano is the proper forum in which to review all of the evidence for your thesis. If members wish to read your books and articles on this subject and then discuss them here afterwards, that's something else again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 16 08:49:11 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 16 Oct 2000 06:07:54 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id DAA16218; Mon, 16 Oct 2000 03:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 06:38:27 +0800 From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Horace's Odes In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.61] claimed to be mail.wesleyan.edu Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Salvete omnes,
Since Jim O'Hara did not answer to my last message, I suppose he
admits that an impartial examination of the circumstances of Vergil's death
can easily (and objectively, Jim) lead to the suspicion that perhaps the
poet did not die of a natural cause.
No, Jim O'Hara did not reply to your last message because it is clear that replying to your messages is a complete waste of time. That you could infer from my silence, after what I have said before, that I buy any part of your argument, shows how weak and unimpressive is your ability to draw inferences. How emphatic do I have to be in insisting that I have seen not the slightest whiff of solid evidence or credible arguments in anything on your website or in your excessive posts to this List. Please leave me out of this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Oct 15 22:17:37 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:50:41 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id TAA00144; Sun, 15 Oct 2000 19:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 22:08:42 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Robert T. White) Subject: Re: VIRGIL: On a lighter note: PVM & PGW Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 2 (High) Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Informal scripist:
Whether Vergil were murdered may remain matter for conjecture; the birth of Vergil on October 15 has been well established. Born also on that date was Dr Sir Pelham Grenville Wodehouse, a good Latinist, whilst at school, and a man whose verse and prose shews some influence of a good classical training. In some of his school stories, characters occasionally remark how unseens from the Aeneid are a doddle to translate. I find it amusing to translate parts of the Aeneid into Wodehousian style. (For instance, Aeneas, when Mercury comes to give him an earbashing from Jove, must of course stare with wild surmise like stout Cortez upon the peak of Darien; Mercury must refer to the cat i' the adage; and faithful Anchises...
Achates?
Bob White
Robert T. White Shaker Heights HS Shaker Heights OH
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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In a message dated 10/15/00 9:58:18PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< I'll post my version of Wodehouse's version of Book IV one of these days.
Farewell
>>please do!
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Greetings from Informal
Whether Vergil were murdered may remain matter for conjecture; the birth of Vergil on October 15 has been well established. Born also on that date was Dr Sir Pelham Grenville Wodehouse, a good Latinist, whilst at school, and a man whose verse and prose shews some influence of a good classical training. In some of his school stories, characters occasionally remark how unseens from the Aeneid are a doddle to translate. I find it amusing to translate parts of the Aeneid into Wodehousian style. (For instance, Aeneas, when Mercury comes to give him an earbashing from Jove, must of course stare with wild surmise like stout Cortez upon the peak of Darien; Mercury must refer to the cat i' the adage; and faithful Anchises is the perfect gentleman's gentleman.) I'll post my version of Wodehouse's version of Book IV one of these days.
Farewell
The Later Latin Society:- http://www.informalmusic.com/latinsoc The Thomas Love Peacock Society:- http://www.informalmusic.com/Peacock
GPO Box 1189
Hobart TAS 7001
AUSTRALIA "Nil igitur mors est ad nos neque pertinet hilum,"
---Lucretius, De Rerum Natura, III. 830
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Sorry, David, As my works are in French, and as the website is a bit succinct, I thought it useful to preface each point of the demonstration (beginning with the Odes) by a clear account of its tenor. You prefer I wait for possible questions from list-members. OK, as you like. Regards. J.-Y. M. http://virgilmurder.org ----------
De : David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: VIRGIL: Horace's Odes; appropriateness? Date : Dim 15 oct 2000 20:33
At 07:34 PM 10/15/00 +0200, J.-Y. Maleuvre wrote:Since Jim O'Hara did not answer to my last message, I suppose he admits that an impartial examination of the circumstances of Vergil¹s death can easily (and objectively, Jim) lead to the suspicion that perhaps the poet did not die of a natural cause.
It sounds to me like you're winding up to take us through a set of texts and arguments on which you have already published extensively. I'm not sure, though, that Mantovano is the proper forum in which to review all of the evidence for your thesis. If members wish to read your books and articles on this subject and then discuss them here afterwards, that's something else again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 16 08:49:15 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 16 Oct 2000 08:04:52 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id FAA25637; Mon, 16 Oct 2000 05:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 08:30:49 -0400 From: George Heidekat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Wodehouse In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 2 Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(from Informal:)
I'll post my version of Wodehouse's version of Book IV one of these days.
PLEASE POST, POSTHASTE!!!
Geo. H.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 16 10:24:53 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:04:33 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA11306; Mon, 16 Oct 2000 07:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:24:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Christian Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Horace's Odes In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: harper.uchicago.edu: cwhess owned process doing -bs Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I never thought I would have to say this on this discussion group; but Mr. O'Hara, please do not feed the trolls. Let this man babble on, and anyone can read it if they wish. My suggestion would be to set up a filter, which I am in the process of doing now. cheers,
cwhess
P.S. My apologies for prolonged silences with replies to replies to my rather rash statements. I will try to defend them shortly.
..............................................................................
"...and I leave my entire vast estate of 10 million dollars to the people of Calgary so they can afford to move somewhere decent!"
-The Frantics, Last Will and Temperament
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Jim O'Hara wrote:
No, Jim O'Hara did not reply to your last message because it is clear that replying to your messages is a complete waste of time. That you could infer from my silence, after what I have said before, that I buy any part of your argument, shows how weak and unimpressive is your ability to draw inferences. How emphatic do I have to be in insisting that I have seen not the slightest whiff of solid evidence or credible arguments in anything on your website or in your excessive posts to this List. Please leave me out of this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 16 11:58:38 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:26:48 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA24985; Mon, 16 Oct 2000 08:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:51:30 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Horace's Odes Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-rt-3.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.155] claimed to be apicra.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
sine ira et studio, as you said.
By the way, you can always set up a filter against the intrusion of truth,
and sleep quietly.
fata obstant placidasque uiri deus obstruit auris.
I retire. Good night.
J.-Y. M.
http://virgilmurder.org ----------
De : Christian Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: VIRGIL: Horace's Odes Date : Lun 16 oct 2000 16:24
I never thought I would have to say this on this discussion group; but Mr. O'Hara, please do not feed the trolls. Let this man babble on, and anyone can read it if they wish. My suggestion would be to set up a filter, which I am in the process of doing now. cheers,
cwhess
P.S. My apologies for prolonged silences with replies to replies to my rather rash statements. I will try to defend them shortly.
..............................................................................
"...and I leave my entire vast estate of 10 million dollars to the people of Calgary so they can afford to move somewhere decent!"
-The Frantics, Last Will and Temperament
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Jim O'Hara wrote:
No, Jim O'Hara did not reply to your last message because it is clear that replying to your messages is a complete waste of time. That you could infer from my silence, after what I have said before, that I buy any part of your argument, shows how weak and unimpressive is your ability to draw inferences. How emphatic do I have to be in insisting that I have seen not the slightest whiff of solid evidence or credible arguments in anything on your website or in your excessive posts to this List. Please leave me out of this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 16 11:58:40 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:36:49 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA26574; Mon, 16 Oct 2000 08:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 18:01:31 +0200 From: MALEUVRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re : VIRGIL: Horace's Odes Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp-rt-6.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.160] claimed to be caroubier.wanadoo.fr Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
How emphatic do I have to be in insisting that I have seen not the slightest whiff of solid evidence or credible arguments in anything on your website...>
Again, Mr O'Hara, you do not answer my arguments, and perhaps you have not good eyes.
your excessive posts to this List>Who has been excessive here? But be relieved, I shall soon quit, letting you, if so you wish, dance on
the grave of murdered Vergil.
J.-Y. M.
http://virgilmurder.org ----------
De : "Jim O'Hara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: VIRGIL: Horace's Odes Date : Lun 16 oct 2000 0:38
Salvete omnes, Since Jim O'Hara did not answer to my last message, I suppose he admits that an impartial examination of the circumstances of Vergil's death can easily (and objectively, Jim) lead to the suspicion that perhaps the poet did not die of a natural cause.
No, Jim O'Hara did not reply to your last message because it is clear that replying to your messages is a complete waste of time. That you could infer from my silence, after what I have said before, that I buy any part of your argument, shows how weak and unimpressive is your ability to draw inferences. How emphatic do I have to be in insisting that I have seen not the slightest whiff of solid evidence or credible arguments in anything on your website or in your excessive posts to this List. Please leave me out of this.
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Oct 20 08:09:20 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 19 Oct 2000 08:17:44 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id WAA17954; Wed, 18 Oct 2000 22:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 01:19:27 -0400 From: Stuart Wheeler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Horace's Odes In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mr. hess, I would never have thought anyone would make the statement that you have just posted. The rudeness of your message is amazingly thoughtless. Are you suggesting that anyone who is subscribed to this list who might find the ideas concerning Vergil in regard to a discussion of his possible murder is a "troll." And, might I ask, what then do you consider yourself in your judgmental capacity? I'm insulted by your remark and I would guess that others are as well. If you think you're too good for the rest of us, why don't you set up a filter for the entire list?
Quite frankly, this list is for the most part the most uninteresting one to which I have ever subscribed. When a little interest is sparked and something begins to happen which is at least thought provoking, you insult the entire list by suggesting that you don't want to feed the TROLLS. That's not funny and I think you should apologize.
SW
I never thought I would have to say this on this discussion group; but Mr. O'Hara, please do not feed the trolls. Let this man babble on, and anyone can read it if they wish. My suggestion would be to set up a filter, which I am in the process of doing now. cheers,
cwhess
P.S. My apologies for prolonged silences with replies to replies to my rather rash statements. I will try to defend them shortly.
..............................................................................
"...and I leave my entire vast estate of 10 million dollars to the people of Calgary so they can afford to move somewhere decent!" -The Frantics, Last Will and Temperament
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Jim O'Hara wrote:
No, Jim O'Hara did not reply to your last message because it is clear that replying to your messages is a complete waste of time. That you could infer from my silence, after what I have said before, that I buy any part of your argument, shows how weak and unimpressive is your ability to draw inferences. How emphatic do I have to be in insisting that I have seen not the slightest whiff of solid evidence or credible arguments in anything on your website or in your excessive posts to this List. Please leave me out of this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Oct 20 08:09:33 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:01:03 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id PAA20909; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:18:32 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Horace's Odes In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Stuart Wheeler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
Mr. hess,
The use of the lower-case letter sits ill with a complaint about rudeness.
I would never have thought anyone would make the statement that you have just posted. The rudeness of your message is amazingly thoughtless.
Dear me: well, Mr Hess must speak for himself, but I shall try to be at least thoughtfully rude.
Are you suggesting that anyone who is subscribed to this list who might find the ideas concerning Vergil in regard to a discussion of his possible murder is a "troll."
Might find them what?
And, might I ask, what then do you consider yourself in your judgmental capacity?
But see below.
I'm insulted by your remark and I
would guess that others are as well.
If the cap fits, let them wear it.
If you think you're too good for the rest of us,
Who are 'the rest of us'?
why don't you set up a filter for the entire list?
Quite frankly, this list is for the most part the most uninteresting one to which I have ever subscribed.
I don't go a bundle on anti-judgementalism, but that sounds pretty much like a judgement to me, and not unlike an insult directed against a majority of the participants.
When a little interest is sparked and something begins to happen which is at least thought provoking,
I take it 'thought provoking' means 'thought-provoking', not just that
it was thought provoking by the rest of us; but then that's judgement
number 2, not counting the comment about thoughtless rudeness.
you insult the entire list
Not me for a start: was there a vote to feel insulted?
by suggesting that you don't want to feed the TROLLS. That's not funny
Judgement number 3 (though I am not sure it had been meant to be funny)
and I think you should apologize.
