Mr. Stuart Wheeler wrote: "I'm insulted by your remark and I would guess that others are as well". I am one of these others. I would even say that M. Maleuvre may appears to many subscribers of this list as a person of courage and dignity. And whatever his personal belief about the death of Virgil may be, this is largely enough to pay him some respect.
Andre-Paul Itel ===== Andre-Paul Itel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hic tamen hanc mecum potera requiescere noctem Fronde super viridi. Super nobis mitia poma, Castaneae molles et pressi copia lactis; Et jam summa procul villarum culmina fumant, Majoresque cadunt altis de montibus umbrae. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Oct 20 08:09:38 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:05:58 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id QAA27517; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:27:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:27:06 +0800 From: Informal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: food for trolls & insults (was Re: VIRGIL: Horace's Odes) Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Unverified) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Greetings Leofranc Holford-Strevens asked: "before we leave the subject of feeding trolls: what do trolls eat anyway?" Goats and people, amongst other things (according to the tales collected by the brothers Grimm), also hobbits, rabbits, and anything abroad by night (according to Tolkien). On the matter of insults: I have not been insulted, so far. (Though I did expose myself to abuse when calling Achates Anchises, the other day. "I could see that the sterling chap was moved: he had raised his eyebrow almost an eighth of an inch. "I say, old man," I said, "I didn't mistakenly refer to you under the name of my dear father, did I?" "That would appear to be the sense, or gist, of the electronic missive you received, sir," he murmured.) Farewell Informal GPO Box 1189, HOBART Tasmania, AUSTRALIA 7001 http://www.informalmusic.com "Nil igitur mors est ad nos neque pertinet hilum," ---Lucretius, De Rerum Natura, III. 830 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Oct 21 08:53:01 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 20 Oct 2000 21:29:51 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id SAA26639; Fri, 20 Oct 2000 18:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 21:45:15 -0400 From: david connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Horace's Odes Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Organization: corn hill ww MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: mailhost.capecod.net: Host cbrg0201.capecod.net [63.211.184.201] claimed to be capecod.net Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks for your delightful riposte on the troll matter. And would you provide your best gnomic rendering of the "usque adeone..." quote? Count me also among the number of those not offended by the advice to Jim O'Hara. I found the Broch work so turgid in style that it was barely readable, and the conspiratorial interpretation of it as fanciful as the prose is heavy. But for my own benefit, I try to remember in such disputes the words put in Sir Thos. More's mouth in "A Man for All Seasons" -- It does not matter that I "believe" it, but rather that "I" believe it. Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Stuart Wheeler > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >Mr. hess, > > The use of the lower-case letter sits ill with a complaint about > rudeness. > > > I would never have thought anyone would make the statement > >that you have just posted. The rudeness of your message is amazingly > >thoughtless. > > Dear me: well, Mr Hess must speak for himself, but I shall try to be at > least thoughtfully rude. > > > Are you suggesting that anyone who is subscribed to this list > >who might find the ideas concerning Vergil in regard to a discussion of his > >possible murder is a "troll." > > Might find them what? > > > And, might I ask, what then do you consider > >yourself in your judgmental capacity? > > But see below. > > > I'm insulted by your remark and I > >would guess that others are as well. > > If the cap fits, let them wear it. > > > If you think you're too good for the > >rest of us, > > Who are 'the rest of us'? > > > why don't you set up a filter for the entire list? > > > >Quite frankly, this list is for the most part the most uninteresting one to > >which > >I have ever subscribed. > > I don't go a bundle on anti-judgementalism, but that sounds pretty much > like a judgement to me, and not unlike an insult directed against a > majority of the participants. > > > When a little interest is sparked and something > >begins to happen which is at least thought provoking, > > I take it 'thought provoking' means 'thought-provoking', not just that > it was thought provoking by the rest of us; but then that's judgement > number 2, not counting the comment about thoughtless rudeness. > > > you insult the entire > >list > > Not me for a start: was there a vote to feel insulted? > > > by suggesting that you don't want to feed the TROLLS. That's not funny > > Judgement number 3 (though I am not sure it had been meant to be funny) > > >and I think you should apologize. > > >From judgement we have moved to sentence. For my part I wish to receive > no share in an apology for an offence not committed against me. > > The merits of the issue apart, public discussion-lists aren't > the best place for standing on injured dignity, not so much for reasons > metiquettical as because they don't support the dignity one might wish > to stand on; rather as the grand oratory that swayed mass audiences in > the flesh makes one look like a nutter or worse on TV. But before we > leave the subject of feeding trolls: what do trolls eat anyway? > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone > Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? > OX2 6EJ > > tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) > > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 23 07:32:45 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 21 Oct 2000 11:33:49 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id JAA06382; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 09:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 15:36:05 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Horace's Odes In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, david connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Thanks for your delightful riposte on the troll matter. And would you provide >your best gnomic rendering of the "usque adeone..." quote? Why, does my knowing rate so low Unless another knows I know? Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 23 07:32:56 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 22 Oct 2000 08:39:25 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id FAA17464; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 05:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 19:25:24 -0400 From: Stuart Wheeler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Re: polite behavior In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In spite of the likely possibility of further abusively jocular and condescending critique by some members of this list, I'm back one more time. One of the people who responded to me off-line commented, "I am not sure how things work at the University of Richmond. But if these propositions are acceptable as evidence, I may as well form my arguments from Broch's novel, 'The Death of Virgil'. " This is how things work at the University of Richmond, at least from my point of view: The faculty of the Department of Classical Studies at the University of Richmond attempts to foster the study of Greek and Roman language, literature, and culture through polite discourse with anyone who elects to step forward with an idea which he or she thinks is interesting and important. We try in whatever way we can to encourage that person to maintain his or her interest in the Classics while politely pointing out to him or her the faults in the logic of the proferred thinking, if that person has put forward an idea which does not appear to us to be sound. If said person persists in his or her argument and wants to discuss the minutiae of what he or she opines, we are willing to work with that person without calling that person abusive names. If said person begins to argue from the point of view that silence means agreement, again we don't run him out of town on a rail. We point out to the person, as Mr. O'Hara wisely did, that this is not a proper way to think, and that if someone is silent, said silence should be respected without conjecture as to the meaning of that silence. I would also like to briefly comment on what we don't do at the University of Richmond: 1. We don't abuse people whose ideas differ from our own and we don't call people by pejorative terminology because they are irritating us. If further communication becomes impossible because of an unbridgeable gulf in our discussion, we tell that person this with civilized language, as Mr. O'Hara did. 2. We don't use the plural if we mean the singular, therefore referring to any and all who might be interested in following ideas with which we disagree by pejorative words, such as "trolls." When we decide to abuse people through the use of purposely insulting language, as happened here in perhaps a minor way, how far are we from much more flagrant displays of academic or even social arrogance, a problem which has caused enormous problems and even more enormous repercussions in civilized behaviour throughout our history? Although Mr. Maleuve perhaps acted with an overly zealous enthusiasm in promoting his ideas, although he may have been irritating to some of us in his style, and although at least one of us thought that he impugned Mr. O'Hara's integrity as a scholar, I don't think the offending gentleman deserved the harsh rejection which at least one of us heaped upon him. (Mr. O'Hara, for instance, answered Maleuve's assertions with polite language throughout the discourse.) Nor did others of us because of our interest in at least hearing Mr. Maleuve's opinions deserve to be called "trolls," a term which cannot be understood as neutral in any circumstance except among fellow trolls. So back to Vergil. What about that interesting thread which was developing concerning the "Georgics" and "Eclogues"? Or why the "Aeneid" is an artistic product inferior to Vergil's earlier work? Stuart Wheeler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 23 07:33:04 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:32:15 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA03640; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 08:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:49:21 -0400 From: david connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Re: polite behavior Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Organization: corn hill ww MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: mailhost.capecod.net: Host cbrg0021.capecod.net [63.211.184.21] claimed to be capecod.net Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Stuart Wheeler's thoughtful comments on the University of Richmond's practices in discourse and debate struck a responsive chord in me. I believe those comments are useful and productive in the kind of semi-anonymous give-and-take which Mantovano encourages, and they are exceedingly important where young people are struggling to learn. But is there a place in the academic soul for the fine tradition of vicious literary riposte in the tradition of Dryden and Pope and Waugh and in the pages of the TLS? What a loss to us all if some of that fine-tuned anger got blunted! I suppose that as long as I'm not the one being gored I'll always take some guarded glee in that part of intellectual curiosity. What do others think about this? Stuart Wheeler does concede that the "troll" remark was rather minor, and its target maintained his composed and relentless politeness, but didn't some of us take a little too much umbrage? Stuart Wheeler wrote: > In spite of the likely possibility of further abusively jocular and > condescending critique by some members of this list, I'm back one more > time. One of the people who responded to me off-line commented, > "I am not sure how things work at the University of Richmond. But if these > propositions are acceptable as evidence, I may as well form my arguments > from Broch's novel, 'The Death of Virgil'. " > > This is how things work at the University of Richmond, at least from my > point of view: > > The faculty of the Department of Classical Studies at the University of > Richmond attempts to foster the study of Greek and Roman language, > literature, and culture through polite discourse with anyone who > elects to step forward with an idea which he or she thinks is > interesting and important. We try in whatever way we can to encourage > that person to maintain his or her interest in the Classics while politely > pointing out to him or her the faults in the logic of the proferred > thinking, if that person has put forward an idea which does not appear to > us to be sound. If said person persists in his or her argument and wants > to discuss the minutiae of what he or she opines, we are willing to work > with that person without calling that person abusive names. If said > person begins to argue from the point of view that silence means agreement, > again we don't run him out of town on a rail. We point out to the person, > as Mr. > O'Hara wisely did, that this is not a proper way to think, and that > if someone is silent, said silence should be respected without > conjecture as to the meaning of that silence. > > I would also like to briefly comment on what we don't do at the University > of Richmond: > > 1. We don't abuse people whose ideas differ from our own and we don't call > people by pejorative terminology because they are irritating us. If > further communication becomes impossible because of an unbridgeable gulf in > our discussion, we tell that person this with civilized language, > as Mr. O'Hara did. > > 2. We don't use the plural if we mean the singular, therefore referring to > any and all who might be interested in following ideas with which we > disagree by pejorative words, such as "trolls." > > When we decide to abuse people through the use of purposely insulting > language, as happened here in perhaps a minor way, how far are we from much > more flagrant displays of academic or even social arrogance, a problem > which has caused enormous problems and even more enormous repercussions in > civilized behaviour throughout our history? > > Although Mr. Maleuve perhaps acted with an overly zealous enthusiasm > in promoting his ideas, although he may have been irritating to some > of us in his style, and although at least one of us thought that he > impugned Mr. O'Hara's integrity as a scholar, I don't think the offending > gentleman deserved the harsh rejection which at least one of us heaped upon > him. (Mr. O'Hara, for instance, answered Maleuve's assertions with > polite language throughout the discourse.) Nor did others of us because > of our interest in at least hearing Mr. Maleuve's opinions deserve to be > called "trolls," a term which cannot be understood as neutral in any > circumstance except among fellow trolls. > > So back to Vergil. What about that interesting thread which was > developing concerning the "Georgics" and "Eclogues"? Or why the > "Aeneid" is an artistic product inferior to Vergil's earlier work? > > Stuart Wheeler > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 23 07:33:03 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:25:39 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA04065; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 08:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:53:19 -0400 From: david connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Horace's Odes Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Organization: corn hill ww MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: mailhost.capecod.net: Host cbrg0021.capecod.net [63.211.184.21] claimed to be capecod.net Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Many thanks to Leofranc Holford-Stevens for the rendering of "usque adeone..." -- A transport of delight! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 23 07:33:11 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 22 Oct 2000 17:05:26 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id OAA02695; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:27:41 +0100 (BST) From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Re : VIRGIL: Vergil's murder In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] 1.I've written this slowly and in stages and I see that the correspondence has moved on! But I'd still like to say something about the paranoid style in history and literary scholarship, meaning this as a descriptive and not as an insulting term. I agree that the historical proposition 'Augustus murdered V' has something of the same paranoia as 'Nixon murdered Janis Joplin'. 2. By 'paranoia' I'd mean 'extreme suspicion of those in power and of people who appear respectable and friendly'. Paranoia involves refusal to take normally accepted criteria of goodwill and honesty at face value. It is heightened, of course, when there is genuine evidence, as with Nixon, of genuine evildoing in high places. (People may say that Nixon murdered Janis J; I'd be surprised if anyone said that Calvin Coolidge murdered Rudolf Valentino.) On the other hand paranoia implies that the evildoers live in constant fear of exposure, that there is some testimony that even they could not deny. They strive to keep it hidden; we must discover it. The evildoers have kept it hidden, of course, by further crimes, such as the murder of Virgil and Joplin, beyond those crimes which they were at first trying to conceal. One problem with the paranoid approach to history is that it strains credulity to believe that the vital testimony can be recovered when a long time has elapsed. I'd be very reluctant to treat the historical propostion 'V was murdered' as more plausible objectively than 'V died of cancer'. (Another problem with the paranoid style is that it makes one pretty impervious to counterarguments: counterarguments seem like part of the evil plot.) 3. Despite being deeply reluctant to believe the historical proposition I can't help feeling some interest in the related literary proposition that V's work itself has paranoid qualities. After all, civil war produces paranoia - the experience of near civil war, following defeat, in the Germany of 1919 produced a line of films (which moved to Hollywood) with the theme of 'The Man who Solved his own Murder' - in allegory, the 'murdered' wartime generation turns on the guilty men. Does V's work actually belong in or near this genre, accusing Augustus before the fact? As Damien Nelis says, one can reasonably regard Augustus as a mass murderer. 4. For me, some interest arises because of a challenge to something I have always been inclined to believe, that is that work in the classical style is what I might call limpid, the absolute reverse of paranoid. It makes an emotionally powerful, life-affirming first impression; its final message explains, rationalises and reinforces the same impression. Demosthenes, say, is a classical orator: he presents his democratic values to us immediately, believes in them completely and explains them more powerfully the more you read him. I mention D because V would have been aware of D's remark that the only invincible defence of democracies against scheming monarchs is mistrust, apistia: but what would one do if the scheming monarch had already overcome the defences of democracy, perhaps because too many people had trusted him in his early days? D's own eventual resort was to suicide. If one wanted to stay alive and to do literary work, perhaps one method would be to develop apistia into paranoia and force the limpid classical style into new, coded, tricky forms. 'Anti-Augustan' interpreters like Boyle have claimed to find and read this code. Am I prejudiced against this line of interpretation because I insist on taking 'classical' work at face value? 5. Well, I think I have a bit more than prejudice on my side. I do have to admit that V's work does not have a 'face value' in quite the clear sense that D's does. Yet I think that he offers a developed form of what I'm calling limpidity (tell me if you think that phrase is meaningless) rather than a tricky code. In the Ecl.9 there is a fairly plain indication that Menalcas, who represents part of V's own person, has found his life in danger. This is the nearest V gets to accusing Augustus of being a threat to his life. And yet in Geo he asks the gods, in carefully chosen words, to allow this young man to save the Western world. I think he means it both times: we have to construct his attitude to Augustus out of both these conflicting elements. 6. Another point, perhaps disjointed, perhaps quite fanciful. In Aen.XII, Aeneas/Augustus is at one point near naked, at least disarmed. Paranoia includes the idea that the evildoer can be stripped of his pretences and finally exposed. This should be the moment, if V is writing of his overt hero in paranoid style, when we see him for the worthless person that he is. But at this point he seems to be at his best. - Martin Hughes On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Hans Zimmermann wrote: > Jim O'Hara schrieb: > > > >Isn't the "Vergil-murder" more the kind of "who killed JFK"-stuff? > > > > > > > I believe the argument suggested is more like "Nixon killed JFK, and Robert > > Kennedy, and Martin Luther King, and James Dean, Buddy Holly, Jimy Hendrix, > > Janice Joplin and Jim Morrison." > > don't forget John Lennon. Nixon shot him for the verse: "No shorthaired > yellowbellied son of tricky dicky 's gonna mother hubbard soft soap me with > such > a pocket of hope, money for dope, money for rope" (it is far away, that I > heared > this verse, maybe 25 years, so there might be some mistakes, but it sounded a > little bit like this) > grusz, hansz > > > > > > Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara > > Professor of Classical Studies Classical Studies Dept. > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University > > 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 > > Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 25 15:42:17 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 25 Oct 2000 14:26:54 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id LAA03014; Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 14:29:32 +0300 From: Stuart Wheeler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: In praise of the Eclogues and Georgics In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Susan, By clicking on the link in David's message, my computer accessed the Belloc essay with no difficulty. Try it again. Stuart Wheeler >David, > When I tried to get to the website you gave for the Belloc essay, I got >a screen saying that the website did not exist. I double checked the address >I typed in, and it seems to be correct. > Susan Mitchell > Florida Atlantic Univesity > [EMAIL PROTECTED] >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 25 07:54:56 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 25 Oct 2000 07:39:38 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id EAA02645; Wed, 25 Oct 2000 04:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 06:52:29 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: In praise of the Eclogues and Georgics In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 07:25 PM 10/21/00 -0400, Stuart Wheeler wrote: >So back to Vergil. What about that interesting thread which was >developing concerning the "Georgics" and "Eclogues"? Or why the >"Aeneid" is an artistic product inferior to Vergil's earlier work? Thanks for bringing us back to the point, Stuart. Has anyone read Hilaire Belloc's essay on "Mowing a Field"? I happened across it the morning Helen was telling us about her first experience of the Eclogues, and found both very moving. The question that I still haven't been able to answer for myself is whether Belloc's piece is moving in a Virgilian way. I've scanned the essay and put it online here: http://virgil.org/eclogues/belloc-mowing.htm What think ye? Looking forward to hearing what others think, I am as always Yours faithfully, David ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. David Wilson-Okamura (651) 696-6643 [EMAIL PROTECTED] English Dept., Macalester College, 1600 Grand Ave., St. Paul, MN 55105 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 25 08:37:41 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 From: "Pete Beyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: In praise of the Eclogues and Georgics Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:37:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Thank you for scanning the Belloc essay and making it available. It was delightful. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Wilson-Okamura" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 7:52 AM Subject: Re: VIRGIL: In praise of the Eclogues and Georgics > At 07:25 PM 10/21/00 -0400, Stuart Wheeler wrote: > >So back to Vergil. What about that interesting thread which was > >developing concerning the "Georgics" and "Eclogues"? Or why the > >"Aeneid" is an artistic product inferior to Vergil's earlier work? > > Thanks for bringing us back to the point, Stuart. > > Has anyone read Hilaire Belloc's essay on "Mowing a Field"? I happened > across it the morning Helen was telling us about her first experience of > the Eclogues, and found both very moving. The question that I still haven't > been able to answer for myself is whether Belloc's piece is moving in a > Virgilian way. > > I've scanned the essay and put it online here: > > http://virgil.org/eclogues/belloc-mowing.htm > > What think ye? Looking forward to hearing what others think, I am as always > > Yours faithfully, > David > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr. David Wilson-Okamura (651) 696-6643 [EMAIL PROTECTED] > English Dept., Macalester College, 1600 Grand Ave., St. Paul, MN 55105 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub >
