This is a MapHist list message. News: If you don't get messages anymore, go to http://www.maphist.nl for news about the new MapHist Forum o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o +
Good Al, Very Good! I starting collection maps and atlases in 1974, with no money and buying items at my pocket possibility, just as I loved, and still love, maps as a way for human kind to find his way in this world and along with his fantasy. A way of put order in his mind and out of it. The reason why somebody and, I dare say, ANY OF US collect maps is for their cultural value and for their aspect or content (features generally speaking). If I discover that my maps by Rizzi Zannoni on Southern Italy or his map of Atlas of Poland is of no market value this doesn't change my life and my opinion on that collected items. Of course, I live in this world and I know that for a certain number of persons ANYTHING has a value and maps among them, and me too I have sold or exchanged my maps but this is not the matter and has nothing to do with the reasons of COLLETING maps. To suggest to somebody to by valuable maps and to buy maps as investment is a stupid thought. Of course I am aware it is my own personal opinion. vladimiro valerio scholar in the field of History of Representation of Space, Map Collector and Map Lover, and President of Italian Map Collector Society Il giorno 23/dic/2011, alle ore 23.20, <a...@moldovan.md> <a...@moldovan.md> ha scritto: > This is a MapHist list message. > News: If you don't get messages anymore, go to http://www.maphist.nl for news > about the new MapHist Forum > o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + > > > I have been collecting Holy land and Jerusalem maps and views for the past 40 > years. I never bought an item "for investment purposes' but I would like to > note that the value of these items has fallen considerably, except for some > very rare items. Does anyone have any idea why this has been happening? Al > > From: maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl [mailto:maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl] On Behalf > Of Geographicus Antique Maps > Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 5:14 PM > To: 'Discussion group for map history' > Subject: RE: [MapHist] Alternative Investing 2011- Mappinga > Profit:Cartography and Fine Art Investment - CNBC > > This seems absurd to me. > > You cannot use “centuries” of evidence to dismiss modern day market reality. > The market economy of the past 50 years did not exist 100 years ago and what > we are dealing with today cannot be understood in these terms, hence, of > course “general price increases we think of as continuous really began in the > early 20th century”. That “rise” is an 80+ year pattern of ascendency in > map value that beats almost any other investment I can think of. Like any > investment there is risk – the Earth could be hit by a meteor tomorrow > tumbling the world a new dark age, at that point I am not going to be > worried about map value but nor am I going to be trading on the AMEX. On > the other hand a tangible object that has steadily and dramatically increased > in value over the past 100 years is a pretty good investment. Certainly I > would see this 80+ year trend as a stronger indicator than say the history of > the American housing market, long touted as a stable and solid investment. > Moreover, with a serious history of only about 50 or 60 years, the map trade > in general remains in its infancy and has plenty of room to grow. > > On a related note, it is inaccurate to describe the acquisition of art for > investment as “speculation”. By definition a speculator is someone who > purchases something expecting profits without any serious basis for that > purchase. While certainly there remain speculators in any investment arena, > this is foolish and it would not be prudent to invest in anything without > research and study. In the art trade, at least, this information is readily > available to most people in the form of auction records, many of which are > conveniently archived online. Investing in art is thus nothing like “Zen”, it > is based upon knowledge, experience, and timing just like any other > investment. Collectors get the best returns because, of course, they > approach their collections with the greatest knowledge and passion. This is > true of any market – that is to say, those who approach the market with > knowledge win. > > The idea that investment is antithetical to collecting is akin to the > Tocquevillian idea that Democracy is the death of high art. What we are > witnessing is an inevitable change in the collecting– but hardly its death or > decline. A collector can nurse his passion for art while at the same time > acquire pieces that will likely rise in value as easily as I can acquire > profitable stocks in companies that maintain an ethical environmental record. > Tocqueville lamented that without a moneyed leisure class there would be no > “fastidious consumers” dedicated to the appreciation and consumption of > certain kinds of art. What happened instead? The rise in Democracy and > coincided with a global cultural flowering of all kinds of art. The rise of > the art-investor will no doubt change the market and yes, potentially price > out less well financed collectors, but it will also lead to greater interest > in the field and provide more opportunities connoisseurship and knowledge to > drive collections at all levels. The combination of collecting and investing > is a natural response to the rise of a trade, in this case map collecting, in > a market economy where the likes of investment capitalists, Arab Sheiks, and > the global middle class are all acquiring. > > Kevin > > > > From: maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl [mailto:maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl] On Behalf > Of George Ritzlin > Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 4:02 PM > To: Discussion group for map history > Subject: Re: [MapHist] Alternative Investing 2011 - Mappinga > Profit:Cartography and Fine Art Investment - CNBC > > I agree with Dorothy, Ed and Joel. There is good reason for the ILAB’s > proscription against suggesting rare books (and maps) are an investment. > Aside from the uncertain economics of "investing" in art, such an approach is > antithetical to collecting. > > We, too, hear the investment question in our gallery and our standard reply > is "you get your dividends by looking at and studying these maps. If there is > residual value at the end, treat it as a bonus." We also suggest a minimum > holding period of twenty years to overcome the high transaction costs of the > collectible market, and tell people the best financial results have gone to > those who are the true collectors. They buy the best maps they can afford and > hold them as long as possible. "Investing" in maps or art is a bit like Zen – > you hit the target by not aiming at it. > > It is worthwhile to consider a longer history than ten years. If I recall > correctly, when Professor Koeman wrote his little booklet on Blaeu’s Grand > Atlas he observed that the price of the atlas went nowhere for two centuries. > It is only in more recent times that prices rose. > > The general price increases we think of as continuous really began in the > early 20th century (some economists argue the late 19th century), and were > preceded by nearly a century of no inflation or disinflation. > > For those interested in the broad sweep of prices I commend David Hackett > Fischer’s "The Great Wave: Price Revolutions and the Rhythm of History" on > European prices since the building of the Cathedral of Chartes, which > demonstrates that patterns of price change are quite uneven over time. > > Given the present economic uncertainty, it would be presumptuous to suggest > recent trends will continue unabated. > > For something closer to the map market, read Gerald Reitlinger’s three-volume > "The Economics of Taste" on the rise and fall of prices for paintings and > objets de art, from the mid-18th century to the mid-20th century. I can think > of no better way to conclude than to cite Mr. Reitlinger’s introduction to > his third volume (published 1970, pages 11-12). > > "It cannot be denied that enormous profits have been made in the past two > decades by those who followed fashionable trends...in order to sell-out a few > year later, but these are not investors but speculators. The only investors > are those who never meant to invest at all. Those who bought some twenty > years ago...may have seen their treasures multiply in value... But they will > either have ceased to collect altogether or they will have joined the general > rat-race, selling dear in order to buy even dearer. Those who bought from > income or pin-money will compete with those who pledge their entire capital. > That is the meaning of art as an investment, nothing less than the extinction > of true collecting." > > George Ritzlin > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Geographicus Antique Maps > To: 'Discussion group for map history' > Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 1:37 PM > Subject: RE: [MapHist] Alternative Investing 2011 - Mappinga > Profit:Cartography and Fine Art Investment - CNBC > > This is a MapHist list message. > News: If you don't get messages anymore, go to http://www.maphist.nl for news > about the new MapHist Forum > o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + > > Joel – > > We do not advise clients to purchase maps for investment purposes – though we > like all dealers invest in old maps and must recognize that they do have > investment value, and I am not talking about 3% inflation. As with any > physical object, be it a house, a car, or an old map, liquidity is an issue, > but it is an issue that anyone purchasing such an object is aware of upfront. > Also like any investment, investors in physical objects need a knowledge > base regarding what they are buying. Just as one does not randomly purchase > stock or houses or cars and expect get rich, one should exercise the same > caution in acquiring an antique. Strategic knowledge-based acquisitions > however (from dealers and from other venues like auctions) can yield handsome > profits over time. If it were not so dealers would all be in the poorhouse. > The premise behind fine art investment funds is as sound as and bears a > similar risk level as any object asset investment – I see no reason why such > funds should not include historical artifacts, like maps, as part of their > acquisition portfolios. > > Kevin > > > From: maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl [mailto:maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl] On Behalf > Of Joel Kovarsky > Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 1:21 PM > To: Discussion group for map history > Subject: Re: [MapHist] Alternative Investing 2011 - Mapping a > Profit:Cartography and Fine Art Investment - CNBC > > I think this is different than the point Dorothy Sloan was making, which was > seconded by Ed Dahl. The idea that the price of any good rises over time and > with inflation is quite different than the recommendation of using old maps > as an investment strategy. This business is hardly the equivalent of an index > fund, and has none of the liquidity or regulatory constraints that go into > financial vehicles (OK, I know recent history questions some of the > regulatory issues). I think you tread on very thin ice advising someone to > use old maps as a significant investment vehicle. The ILAB (and IAMA) Code of > Ethics rightly admonish not to use these materials as "investment schemes." > The idea of investing in maps has something in common with investing in art, > so that the higher end of the market is likely to yield the best returns over > time: you had better have both funding and knowledge to forage that world on > a consistent basis. And there are exceptions to everything. > > Joel Kovarsky > > On 12/23/2011 12:04 PM, Geographicus Antique Maps wrote: > This is a MapHist list message. > News: If you don't get messages anymore, go to http://www.maphist.nl for news > about the new MapHist Forum > o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + > > > > > Ed – > > I disagree. “Is my map likely to increase in value over time?” is one of the > most common questions dealers are asked. In is not unethical to answer > truthfully. While we always encourage our clients to purchase maps first > because they enjoy them and not directly as an investment, the answer to this > question is “most likely”. In the short term, unless you are a dealer or > very savvy, it is indeed difficult to purchase a map at a retail gallery and > turn a profit, however, in the long term there is significant potential for > profit. The historical increase in map value over a considerable time (10+ > years) is chartable to anyone with access to historical sales data – which > should be pretty much everyone in this list. While certain maps, like the > stock market, can bubble in value for short periods of time, the overall and > consistent trend is for maps to increase in value as time passes. Most > dealers, like ourselves, price maps in accordance with historical retail and > auction values for similar items. On such a model a natural increase in > value can be reasonably anticipated. > > Kevin > > > > _______________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > Maphist mailing list > Maphist@geo.uu.nl > http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist > _______________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > Maphist mailing list > Maphist@geo.uu.nl > http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist _______________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. 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