Hi Andrija,
this is not what I am aiming for. we have to accept that we may have different opinions. we dont talking about that other people can do updates on the website. i know that the current system is not perfect to use for an editor and sure there are better systems. what i say is that i would prefer a system for WWW which is use git as backend. i know that is not easy because it should be easier to use for editors but the tracking of content "who did what and when" is more transparent for all people as contributor, committer, PMC or whatever they are. "maybe" it would be useful to investigate a little bit more to look if there is a better hybrid system which can handle both worlds usability for editors and track the changes. maybe there are extensions to wordpress to handle such things. would be interesting. if we clean this systems up (CCC, WWW) then then we did it right. bye the way... The discussion about access management is a legitimate question and should be included as an idea. democracy is a game of rules. precisely because we have different systems like Slack, Youtube... We should have a rule and "identical procedure" for permitting, controlling and documenting these points Let us look for an example. is you look into the ASF Roster you can look for different things in a profile. which mailing list you are managing, which groups do you belong to, you mail address and so one. i would prefer that such specially responsibilities for Slack, Youtube and other systems are documented in a system for example in our confluence. at this point its more easy for anyone to find and contact the right people for any topic and would helps the overview and order (who has what authorization on which system, for example admin, non-admin but responsible for content). Let's assume that a person is no longer the contact person for a specific topic or is no longer an admin then this should changed and recognizable. i would help and support to document such information. i hope it is more clear now. Cheers, Sven Vogel Apache CloudStack PMC member On Monday, 05/24/2021 at 23:02 Andrija Panic wrote: Sven, Let's please not go into discussion about access management - you/me and many others have requested access to i.e. Slack workspace and it has a separate access management system, obviously. QA server is not in control of all PMC members, but just a handful of, so is the same for download.cloudstack.com [1], Slack channel, IRC in past, etc. Enough PMC members should have full access, while community members, like Ivet or Sunando or other non-PMC members should have non-admin, but enough privileges to contribute and update a website (i.e. the same is true for the new ACS youtube channel I created - I've shared access with few different people in the community, people from different companies, but allowed i.e. Ivet to manage it). Ivet, Sunando and all of us are equal part of community, besides some of us being PMCs. Ivet is community. Sunando is community. So are you and me. Current www system is an outrageously complicated - I dare you going and making an update yourself - please let me know how many hours (instead of minutes) you have spent, I'm really curious... Talking about community... did you recently review any existing documentation about i.e. XenServer preparation for ACS, or VMware? It's insanely outdated... "community" doesn't care, or have time... Let's have us, PMC members, not block other people who are willing to contribute to web site / marketing - we, as a community, have certainly "sucked" at doing this part of work properly... I'm no WordPress guru, nor I endorse it for any reason, but there is a fact that it works, especially for small volume sites like www or CCC. The same that has been done by Wido providing QA server, can be done for WordPress. I hope what I said makes sense, it's for the benefit of the project, not your or mine company. Regards, Andrija On Mon, 24 May 2021, 17:00 Sven Vogel, wrote: Hi Sunando, Like Will said I think for CCC it could be another platform. I see the need to update these Sites. For WWW I think the related system is fine. For me nobody can give a long term commitment. The commitment in the case of long term comes from the whole community. People should create PRs and everybody can see this. Merge is controlled by different people we don’t need a separate Access Management because it’s controlled by committers and PMCs. It does not mean that Ivet can do this but other people can see the changes and this is open. If we use Wordpress we need an separate access management. It should be clear the access must be from PMC member or committers. It should be clear that „if the sites“ are official CloudStack project related sites they should be in the the hand of the community. Is this private sites from any company anyway. I think an good example is the qa server from Wido for primate. It’s sponsored but under control from all PMC member. I am open for suggestions how the access management can work and the openness but this should be solved before we transfer any site to Wordpress. Cheers, Sven Vogel Apache CloudStack PMC member Am Montag, den 05/24/2021 um 14:04 schrieb Sunando Bhattacharya: My team and I are happy to provide a long-term commitment to maintaining all the cloudstack web properties, CCC, Blog and www et all. We will collaborate with Ivet on the same. Can we know the steps required to transition the websites? I presume this would require PMC approval? Best, Sunando www.indiqus.com [2] +91 97111 52299 Book my time for a call here [3] On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 2:07 AM Andrija Panic wrote: Being in a need to update ACS websites in past, it was absolutely frustrating to get things done at all - that is my humble experience. I do understand WordPress needs some maintenance - so we need to sort it out, if we want to move to it. And, for the record, I do support the idea of WordPress, as technical guys (me included) can/want to barely write a complete documentation or even keep the ACS docs updated, leave alone the marketing pages - technical guys like working on a code, not updating documentation or marketing pages - that is a fact nobody can deny, and since this is community project we cant "force" people do it, although we desperately need it, otherwise things get outdated and incomplete/obsolete. This is where Ivet and alike should jump in, if they are ready to provide some support for it over the longer period of time (I'm talking about WordPress for eithet/or/both CCC and the main www site) - and both CCC, blog and WWW website are so infrequently updated my 2 cents. Best, On Sun, 23 May 2021, 22:01 Sven Vogel, wrote: Hi Guys, In many points I agree with Will. At the moment we speak about the CCC website. Right? I don’t see any reason why we should to the CloudStack website www to an WordPress. I like the usage of git for the www site and I think this is more open. I don’t see how a WordPress can work like this. Maybe anybody have an idea. Please let us concentrate on CCC and not on the www Website. Thanks. Cheers, Sven Vogel Apache CloudStack PMC member Am Samstag, den 05/22/2021 um 21:59 schrieb Will Stevens: Giles, I think you and I were saying the same thing. When I mentioned your and Simons teams, I was pointing out that you have a marketing team, where Simons team is more focused on ops. I think it is most important that that you and the other marketing people who are willing and able to support this work use whatever system works best for you. Will On Sat., May 22, 2021, 10:32 a.m. Giles Sirett, wrote: Hi Will – although I don’t mind our company being mentioned (and thank you for the compliments), I don’t see this as an issue as what orgs our contributors work for. This, for me, is an issue of needing to create a basic website, quickly and easily, preferably without any specialist skills. – I really do appreciate the work you’ve put in on maintaining this over the years, but I think we should listen to the people who are trying to organise this event. From my perspective :for the collab site, this is almost an unnecessary conversation: it’s a “temporary” site for an annual conference and doesn’t really need long term maintenance - if somebody wants to setup something for this years/next years conference and are prepared to do the work, lets point the A records at whatever they’ve created and let it roll On a more general point (probably more related to cloudstack.apche.org [4]) : I do disagree with your view on things like wordpress. Theres a reason that start-ups, web agencies, marketing teams, etc all default to CMSs like WordPress: it makes it easy to update content by people WITHOUT specialist tech skills – the same people that often have ideas on marketing/presentation/etc. AFAIK, WordPress is virtually de-facto in those circles Yes, we’re a tech community, but we’re mainly java programmers and infra people. AFAIK there isn’t a defacto HTML generator in our circles. Over the years we’ve had a number of more marketing focussed people in the community: Karen, Ivet, myself, Sunando, Julia and I don’t think any of us have been able to update cloudstack.apache.org [5] without constantly asking for help. I’d guess most don’t even know where to start with git We should be making our web presence easy for such people to add value IMO – but we don’t. This, to me, is like those folks trying to tell our developer community what IDE they have to use (and forcing them to use a txt editor 😊 ) I did start a thread on this about 4 years ago (as I was getting frustrated as to how difficult it was to maintain cloudstack.apache.org [5]). That thread resulted in lots of people listing their favourite HTML generator tools/techniques and nobody able to agree. We even had a web agency prepared to do us a re-design pro bono. It ran out of steam and the pro-bono agency ran a mile after a few days on this mailing list. At the same time, there’s folks like Ivet keen to contribute but finding it really difficult Your example comparing two different teams just doesn’t add up to me: how many of Simons team have managed to help maintain our website over the years? None AFAIK (sorry, Simon et al, not in any way meant as a criticism) The net result is that the site languishes: often out of date & is updated infrequently. It is also desperate for a design overhaul IMO Kind regards Giles From: Will Stevens Sent: 22 May 2021 12:57 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: CloudStack Collaboration Conference As you wish. I personally hate WordPress, as it becomes a bear to maintain over time. You also have to find somewhere to host it and someone to maintain it. I find that static sites built with something like Hugo are actually easier to maintain, but you are right that some understanding of html is usually required. Static sites also cater to distributed contribution more easily. If you use a service like Netlify, for example, all contribution can be handled through GitHub PRs and the changes can be live previewed within the pull request. Once merged, the site is automatically updated. I am willing to support whatever direction is taken, but my personal involvement supporting a WordPress implementation will be much more limited as I don't have the time to dedicate to that sort of a rebuild. I have a ton of experience with WordPress, Drupal and the like, so I feel obligated to provide my honest opinion. You are right that minor content changes are easier for non-techies, but as soon as you want to make any structural changes or improvements, it becomes highly technical and extremely difficult. The only way to make a WordPress implementation successful, in my experience, is to have consistent technical maintenance by someone with moderate to high technical ability. You also have to actively maintain contributors within the system. Given that CloudStack is an open source Apache project, the majority of the community members are technical users of the platform, so there is a skewed technical bias within the community participation. I think ShapeBlue is the obvious exception, because they run a business around CoudStack, rather than CloudStack just being a piece of a bigger business. ShapeBlue may have staff with skills capable of maintaining something like this, and the contextual interest in investing their paid resources time, but I don't think the majority of the community has the luxury of dedicating this type of profile to focus on CloudStack. Giles, I hope you don't mind me mentioning ShapeBlue in this way. You and your team have remained a constant in the community and your CloudStack focused team has a much more diverse set of skills than most strong contributors in the community. For example, if I compare to Simon's team at ENA, they have been strong contributors for a long time but their team is much more technical and operations focused, which I think is more common in the CloudStack community based on my experience. The reason I raise this is because contribution will naturally wax and wane within the community based on the different organization's ability to fund contribution. Given the fact that WordPress requires dedicated maintenance over time, my concern is that the community will have a much harder time maintaining it with a rotating group of contributors. As an individual contributor, my contribution has waxed and waned over the years and I am not in a good position to represent the needs and capabilities of the current community. I don't know if what I laid out here resonates with the group, so please take it with a grain of salt if you see things differently. Cheers, Will On Sat., May 22, 2021, 5:18 a.m. Sunando Bhattacharya, wrote: Hi Will, I think it's best to set up the site afresh using WordPress as it would be far easier to administer for a non-tech person. Moreover, WordPress also has readymade plugins for the virtual event and Webinar platforms, which will make the event setup much easier. Want do you think Ivet? Best, Sunando www.indiqus.com [2] +91 97111 52299 Book my time for a call here [6] On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 12:03 AM Will Stevens wrote: Hey Ivet, It is built using Hugo (https://gohugo.io/), which produces a static website. The different site repositories are here: https://github.com/cloudops/?q=cloudstackcollab The `cloudstackcollab.org [7]` repo is a simple landing page site which basically references all of the upcoming CCC events (the subdomain sites). Then each event gets their own site. The `us.cloudstackcollab.org [8]` repo has seen the most activity over the years and is likely a good starting point. Currently, I am personally hosting the sites, but we could change that. I could potentially host it via a `gh-pages` branch in the same repo if that is preferred. We could also move these sites to the apache org if that is desired, but I suspect there will be some red tape in making that happen. I am happy to deploy the updates to the current hosting if that is desirable for the short term anyway. The easiest way to get started would be to clone one or two of the repos and get them working locally on your system by setting up Hugo. From there, we can potentially handle the content / site changes through PRs which I can then merge and deploy. That is probably the shortest path, but I happy to accomodate if we would like to approach this differently. Let me know if/when you have questions. Cheers, Will On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 10:13 AM Ivet Petrova wrote: Hi Will, I am volunteering to make updates there if you agree. Looks like not WorPress. Is it plain HTML? Kind regards, On 21 May 2021, at 17:07, Will Stevens wrote: Yes, I have not been as active in the community as I once was. I am happy to support the CloudStack Collab website as I have in the past, but I am also willing to get someone else setup to take over if someone is interested. I will try to stay on top of the CCC communications so I am not a bottleneck for progress. :) Cheers, Will On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 7:43 AM Giles Sirett wrote: Ivet – I think that is a GREAT idea. I’d love to see it happen Obviously, you have experience in organising virtual events, so I wont try to offer any advice on that, but here’s a couple of things you would need to think about * Permission to use the trademark. Officially there’s nothing to stop you (or anybody) organising an event at any time. The only official thing you need to do is ask the PMC for permission to use the ACS trademark. I’ll happily ask on your behalf if you like – let me know * CFP The way we have done this previously is ask for a small panel of volunteers to act as a “talk selection committee” Obviously , we then need some way of people actually submitting proposals. Previously, we’ve used the Apachecon CFP tool – obviously that wont be available for an event such as this * We have a website for Cloudstack Collab conferences : http://cloudstackcollab.org/ That’s managed by Will Stevens/ the cloud-ops guys (although they’re not so active in the community these days, so maybe somebody else could take it over ? ) Happy to help / support this where I can Kind regards Giles From: Ivet Petrova Sent: 21 May 2021 11:22 To: [email protected] Subject: CloudStack Collaboration Conference Hi all, We have just a few days to the first CloudStack Virtual event! If still have registered, now is the time to do is: https://zoom.us/webinar/register/3216172602723/WN_-zsXhTq_Ttu1Ktz82my06Q (this is technically a meeting of the European User Group, but as its virtual anybody can join!) I am writing to share also something more: I’ve been thinking about trying to organise a virtual CloudStack Collaboration Conference in the Autumn. There is a Virtual Apachecon in the autumn but I think we have missed our chance with that because the CFP is long closed. Organising this upcoming event has shown me that it is possible to get something virtual off the ground, and we’ve had a lot of interest from people wanting to speak. So, my proposal is that we run a Virtual Cloudstack Collab in the Autumn. I am happy to coordinate this in the community. Тhe target of such event would be to share ideas, collaborate, bring more awareness for the technology and to attract new audience - new possible contributors and new potential users. In terms of format, I was thinking was 2-days event/ 4 hours per day with sessions into streams - one focused on tech and one focused on user stories and the business side. We’d need to run a CFP process – I may need some help with that. What do people think? Kind regards, Links: ------ [1] http://download.cloudstack.com [2] http://www.indiqus.com [3] https://t.sidekickopen45.com/s3t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7kv8bWL06W1M6vxk59hl3kW7_k2842Qy2TxW7XLCJP7blRHjN83GqGkDyk8yf8bQQB202?te=W3R5hFj4cm2zwW3F4Fph41QWmBW1JxwY51LDLyRf3zdYTm04&si=5666632314912768&pi=9096330f-29c6-4320-9553-16b430347d7c [4] http://cloudstack.apche.org [5] http://cloudstack.apache.org [6] https://t.sidekickopen45.com/s3t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7kv8bWL06W1M6vxk59hl3kW7_k2842Qy2TxW7XLCJP7blRHjN83GqGkDyk8yf8bQQB202?te=W3R5hFj4cm2zwW3F4Fph41QWmBW1JxwY51LDLyRf3zdYTm04&si=5666632314912768&pi=b39b9ed8-71b1-4341-dec1-f2b7cc7261c2 [7] http://cloudstackcollab.org [8] http://us.cloudstackcollab.org
