Hi, I agree with Paul. Peace and love, let's use all this energy to the promotion LibreOffice the world.
Cheers, Clóvis On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 10:32 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima < paulo.s.l...@gmail.com> wrote: > 2011/5/10 Bernhard Dippold <bernh...@familie-dippold.at> > > > Hi Paulo, all, > > > > Hi. > > > > > > sorry for stepping in here so late, but I don't understand what > > you mean - so I'd rather like to ask instead of rely on possibly > > wrong assumptions... > > > > Paulo S. Lima wrote: > > > 2011/5/9 Tom Davies <tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk> > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > Paulo, is there a danger of losing the Brazilian websites due to > > Brazilian > > > > law? If that danger does exist then is it a problem that needs to be > > solved > > > > urgently? > > > > > > > > > > The websites itself? No. Domains? maybe. Until the NGO is not > completely > > > undone (legaly talking...) the domains are safe. Once the NGO is > > competely > > > over, the domain must be transfered to another NGO (and it MUST be an > > NGO, > > > not a person or a private company). > > > > If I understand you right, the domains have to be owned by an NGO, or > they > > don't exist / are not accessible on the web. > > > > No. Every domain registration has a time to expire. When expiring is > closing, the owner receives a message about it and, if he wants, he pays > another fare and maintain that domain for another period of time (from 1 to > 3 years, i think). > > If NGO ends its activities, domain will remain in tis name, until > expiration. After that, it will be available for anyone (who has an > legalized brazilian NGO) to register it. > > > > > > And if they exist, Brazilian people know by their extension (.org.br), > > that they > > relate to an NGO dedicated to LibreOffice and TDF. > > > > When the present NGO is undone, the website will become inactive. > > > > No, the correct situation is: when the domain payed period expire. > > > > > > I don't know if this is a real issue to the Brazilian community and their > > users, > > as I strongly hope that until this time the move towards the br-pt.LibO > > pages > > has been finished. > > > > After all this mess, We're gonna move what we can move right away, and > place > the rest somewhere. That's not the best choice, but is the one we can do. > > > > > > But this question should be left to the LibO/TDF community in Brazil, as > > they > > are the ones to know their users best. > > > > > That's what I'm saying since the begining, but some people pretend not to > understand and prefer coertion instead negotiation. > > > > The idea of securing the website for later times comes to my mind, but > our > > trademark policy states clearly that nobody is allowed to use such a > > website > > without agreement by the trademark owner, so we can hinder every evil > > player > > from using the site. > > > > Ok. But I ask you again: Why are there two different treatments to > North-american community and brazilian community? And this is an issue that > affects a lot of things, including TDF claims to be a transparent and > meritocratic foundation. But I will not begin a new discussion on this > matter. > > > > > I suppose that ALTA could "kindly" offer > > > to do that, but if you decide it it will be a proof that TDF members > are > > not > > > reliable for Brazilian Community. Sorry for these words, but it's the > > crude > > > truth. > > > > And here I am a bit lost: > > > > I don't know ALTA, but the way you propose to use them as NGO for the > > website > > sounds to me, that they don't have the trust of the Brazilian community. > > > > Well, let me draw it for you: > Olivier and David are founder members of TDF. They were part of the > BrOffice.org NGO who were doing things that Brazilian Community don't > agree. > Those things include asking for Claudio's dismissing to TDF, disregard many > of BrOffice.org bylaws (such support our community's annual meeting, act > like a proxy between the community and TDF, filter who was able to became > Broffice.org member, and so on). That's because BrOffice.org was > disassembled: By Brazilian laws, when an Association like that loose their > goals, it can be ended up if some of their members ask for that in justice. > That's because the community disregard Olivier, David, Gustavo Pacheco, > Eliane Domingos and other people. That's not me who is telling that. This > is > well documented in the internet, in Mailing lists, blogs and in an petition > we made which has almost 1000 signatures. There are many people, great > names > of FOSS and ODF in Brazil who are eye witness of what has done. > > When BrOffice.org ended up, they founded ALTA as an Association (an NGO). > And we know they've done that in order to redo there, what they were doing > in the NGO BrOffice.org. Our concern is they begin to claim to be the > representatives of TDF in Brazil, including the "official" brazilian > community representatives, just like they tried to do before. > > > > > > If this is true, I think Charles and Florian misunderstood your posting. > > > > So please assure my interpretation: > > > > The Brazilian community *doesn't* want ALTA to be the community's NGO. > > > > Is this right or wrong? > > > > That's right. More precisely: if they want to make money with libreoffice, > or act as a corporation, that's not of community's business. What we don't > want is they becoming an "official" representative of TDF and Libreoffice > in > Brazil, with an "implicit authority" to give orders or coerce our > community. > > We want clear rules on it. ALTA is ALTA. The community is the community. > That's all. > > We are not putting those people out of the community also. They are in our > mailing lists and they are not being constrained. After all the happenings, > ocasionally someone do an unforntunate comment, but, in general, they are > well treated and, also, defended when those things happen. Olivier has a > good participation in users list, and David was helping us in translations. > What I mean is: for our community, that's not personal. They think > different > and most of people don't agree to what they thing. And it has to be > respected: the majority decision. > > > > > > > > > > > >[...] If TDF needs an official office in Brazil then that would > > > > probably have to be run by the Brazilian Community, funded by them > and > > > > administered by them. There might be some chance of organising > things > > a > > > > little differently but that seems (to me) to be the most obvious way > to > > save > > > > the existing websites. > > > > > > > > > > I have already posted this issue to the main Brazilian mailing list. > > > Community is deliberating and soon we are going to have an answer. My > > > feeling is that we're gonna to register another domain or to use one > > already > > > registered for our old website > > > > Could you explain why do you need another domain? > > > > Because many of our contents in our old BrOffice.org website cannot be > moved > to TDF structure at once, because we don't have people enough to do that > quickly. So we have to put it somewhere else. > > > > > > > and increase the speed of our content > > > migration to TDF websites. > > > > Wouldn't it be possible to move the content directly to the TDF domain? > > > > Perhaps there would be a possibility to have a non-Silverstripe area on > > TDF > > servers until the migration is finished? > > > > Would this help? > > > > Yes, this could be done. We use (If I am not mistaken) Drupal. We used to > use mediawiki also, but all of our mediawiki contents were migrated to TDF > some months ago. > > > > > > > As I stated before, personally, I really don't > > > care who will own libreoffice.org.br domain name. > > > > And here TDF is different: It is important for the community that the > > trademark > > will not be exploited by external people and assiciations not being part > of > > the > > community. > > > > If TDF could have a local office in Brazil, with someone trusted by the > community, that would be the best choice. But, I think it's a kind > difficult... > > > > > > > And I think people in the community doesn't care at all. > > > > Here it seems to be important to define "the Brazilian community". > > > > For me it has two aspects: > > > > 1. A group of people working together in Brazil doing their best to > further > > LibreOffice. > > > > Yes. That's what we do. > > > > > > 2. A language based and localized part of the international LibreOffice > > community, based on our Bylaws, supported by The Document Foundation > > and administered by a group of people representing the different areas of > > the entire community. > > > > Again, yes. > > > > > > > But.... as I said before: giving the > > > ownership to the people who are threatening us will be a shame and an > > > insult. > > > > So as I don't know who is threatening you (ALTA?), I can't understand > this > > phrase. > > > > As far as I know nobody asked for approval to use the trademark in the > > libreoffice.org.br domain - and if there were such a request, I'm sure > > that > > the SC would not have granted it for an NGO not supported by the > Brazilian > > community. > > > > Well, I think I have answered this question above. Let me know if there are > any doubts. > > > > > > So my proposal is (and if I understand you right, this is exactly what > you > > are elaborating in the Brazilian community): > > > > Find out, if you need / want an NGO for the Brazilian community. > > > > If this NGO (either already existing or new to be founded with strict > > binding > > to the community) asks for aproval to use the trademark in their URL (and > > even > > in their name), SC will most probably approve such a request. > > > > We are searching for an answer to this issue these days. We have no > conclusion at this moment, but I think it will depend upon how all this > mess > will end. A lot of people here has a lot of concerns about TDF, because of > this treatment you are giving us. It's possible we loose some members > because of that. If TDF demonstrates to be more "friedly" than used to be, > maybe we can revert this situation... > > > > > > > > But, yet, my first question is not answered: Why North American > Community > > > can use the brand in their domain name and Brazilian Community can't? > > This > > > is a real strage behavior. > > > > To my understanding it's just a matter of perception: > > > > If the Brazilian website points to the community and supports it, it will > > be seen > > as part of our community and thus allowed to use the trademark (on > > request). > > > > We are trying to follow strictly the trademark policies. Including in > documentation we publish, banners, contacts, etc. > > > > > > In my eyes there are just a few points that support a different > perception: > > > > a) The wiki page on localized mailing lists has been modified to point to > > an > > external discuss list instead of using the native LibreOffice list. This > > can be > > seen as trying to remove people interesting in contributions to > LibreOffice > > towards a different, external area. > > > > Thats exactly the opposite. We are trying to convince people to leave the > old mailing lists and use TDF mailing lists. It's well documented in our > mailing lists history. There are many people, mainly those who use only > regional mailing lists (Gubros), who resist to switch to TDF mailing lists. > They say they wanto to stay acting locally, and don't want to move out to > general list, not focused in their local environment. > > > > > > b) The "old" website http://broffice.org shows an image of the official > > LibreOffice logo, but redirects to http://www.libreoffice.org.br/instead > > of > > http://pt-br.libreoffice.org. > > > > That's part of our strategy to switch from BrOffice to Libreoffice trade > mark. The passes to slightly switch without chock people were: 1 - Put an > advertise redirecting to the old website (but with the new domain). 2 - > Move > the domain to pt-br.libreoffice.org as soon as the most accessed content > were migrated to TDF. 3 - End up the old website moving the remaining > content to TDF or deleting stuff we don't need. > > > > > > c) On the libreoffice.org.br website there is no visible link (at least > > for > > somebody not reading Portuguese) to the official community website > > http://pt-br.libreoffice.org. > > > > The first page is a of blog. The link Instale já (Install now) points to > official LibreOffice download page. In Produto (Products) there is a link > pointing to TDF website. The top news has no link, but if you open it to > see > the whole story, will find info about the transition from BrOffice to > LibreOffice and TDF. > > Indeed, there's a lack of references in that website, but I repeat: that's > not because we are rebels. Thatś why we have a lot of things to do and, a > lot of things were forgoten. > > > > > > d) Even on the official website you link to the > > gubro...@listas.broffice.org > > mailing list and not to the TDF based lists. > > > > I have explained this issue above. > > > > > > Part of this perception might stem from the NGO vs community topic and > > can't be changed by the Brazilian community directly. > > > > But if the NGO wants not to comply with the mentioned changes (I don't > > think so), their approval to use the trademark could be revoked. > > > > What the international LibreOffice community led by TDF and the SC > > should ask for in my eyes is to move the main LibreOffice discuss list > > to the TDF infrastructure as soon as possible. > > > > That were already done. But many people will be left behind because of > that. > > > > > > > > And I have another question: Will we be allowed to use that brand in > our > > > magazine, once it's a real contribution to Libreoffice marketing? > > > > It needs to be released by the community to become the official > LibreOffice > > Magazine - in this case it might be possible to use the logo with TDF > > subline. > > > > If it will be released by a group of community members or external people > > and focus on LibreOffice only, usage of the logo without TDF subline > comes > > to my mind. But your naming of the magazine would need to avoid the > > impression of being an official community/TDF magazine. > > > > If you sell the magazine, you will need to get approval by the SC in both > > cases. > > > > Ok. We were using LibreOffice logo without the TDF reference. And our > magazine isn't sold. It's available for free and all nunbers are available > in TDF wiki. > > > > > > > > [...] > > > There are a lot of unexplained things in the > > > relationship between TDF, Brazilian Community and Brazilian TDF > founders > > and > > > members, and that's not good for real trust and cooperation. > > > > I think personal understanding and opinions differ - and together with > > possible > > misinterpretation and bad feelings this might have led to this situation > of > > negativism. > > > > Possibly yes. But something deep inside tells me that's not the whole > story. > but I won't discuss that anymore. > > > > > > > [...] > > > One thing I have with me for a long time in my life: every action has > > > consequences, including inaction. > > > > Of course you're right. But if you don't take into account the reasons > for > > action > > or inaction (and for SC members I know about the workload they have), > > reactions and personal consequences might lead to the wrong direction... > > > > Maybe... I have a lot of work either. And sincerely LibreOffice does not > pay > my bills, and I am spending a lot of time with it. I am going to rethink my > priorities from now on... > > > > > > Best regards > > > > Bernhard > > > > > Many thanks for allowing us to tell you our point of view. You are the > first > to do it. I expect more people begin to dialogue with us, instead of > fighting us. We don't want to fight anybody. Brazilians are friendly people > who love peace, fun and joy. This situation is very unpleasant. > > Kind regards > > -- > <http://pt-br.libreoffice.org> > Paulo de Souza Lima > Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador > http://www.pasl.net.br > http://almalivre.wordpress.com > Curitiba - PR > Linux User #432358 > Ubuntu User #28729 > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- Clóvis Tristão Net Admin Phone: 55 (19) 3296-4057 Mobile: 55 (19) 9117-3116 MSN: clovis_trista...@hotmail.com Skype: tclovis GTalk: tclo...@gmail.com Facebook: clovis.tristao Twitter: @tclovis Identi.ca: tclovis -------------------;~)---- Be Cool, use GNU/Linux ---------------------------------------- BrOffice.org --> http://broffice.org/ LibreOffice.org --> http://libreoffice.org/ -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
