Steve responds to a post from Ralph:
Ralph:
on 5/29/2005 at 12:48 PM Ralph explained, referring to the passage from M&E
copied below:
... Note that M&E state that natural preconditions antedate historical
analysis, but they are not going to delve into them at this point. Two
conclusions follow: (1) Nature is not merely a social category for Marx as
some claim; (2) Marx doesn't take the trouble at this point to investigate
natural science and especially not its objective correlate as an activity
in itself, since the question at hand is the organization of man's
practical interaction with nature in conjunction with social
organization. But doesn"t practical interaction include natural
scientific research, methodology, and theory? It must, of course, ...
Steve:
I am with Ralph so far, but I am puzzled by where Ralph goes next:
Ralph:
... but note that Marx is onto the direct, practical transformation of
nature as it applies to material production and not that aspect of it that
deals with specialized scientific activity. Note the plural references to
physical preconditions--nature in general and human physiology in
particular--that are acknowledged as preconditions and then set aside. Do
you see the distinction here?
Steve:
To be honest, I don't get what point Ralph is trying to make yet, so I
guess I have to answer: no - I don't yet see the distinction being made
here - sorry! Ralph, if you would be so kind as to explain this
distinction ...
- Steve
as copied in the earlier post Ralph is responding to:
by Marx and Engels, from German Ideology (page 42 in my 1970
International Publishers edition).
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01a.htm#a2
First Premises of Materialist Method
The premises from which we begin are not arbitrary ones, not dogmas, but
real premises from which abstraction can only be made in the imagination.
They are the real individuals, their activity and the material conditions
under which they live, both those which they find already existing and
those produced by their activity. These premises can thus be verified in
a purely empirical way.
The first premise of all human history is, of course, the existence of
living human individuals. Thus the first fact to be established is the
physical organisation of these individuals and their consequent relation
to the rest of nature. Of course, we cannot here go either into the
actual physical nature of man, or into the natural conditions in which
man finds himself geological, hydrographical, climatic and so on. The
writing of history must always set out from these natural bases and their
modification in the course of history through the action of men.
Men can be distinguished from animals by consciousness, by religion or
anything else you like. They themselves begin to distinguish themselves
from animals as soon as they begin to produce their means of subsistence,
a step which is conditioned by their physical organisation. By producing
their means of subsistence men are indirectly producing their actual
material life.
The way in which men produce their means of subsistence depends first of
all on the nature of the actual means of subsistence they find in
existence and have to reproduce. This mode of production must not be
considered simply as being the production of the physical existence of
the individuals. Rather it is a definite form of activity of these
individuals, a definite form of expressing their life, a definite mode of
life on their part. As individuals express their life, so they are. What
they are, therefore, coincides with their production, both with what they
produce and with how they produce. The nature of individuals thus depends
on the material conditions determining their production.
This production only makes its appearance with the increase of
population. In its turn this presupposes the intercourse [Verkehr] of
individuals with one another. The form of this intercourse is again
determined by production.
<end>
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