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[So...this is my first tippytoe into this debate, something I've avoided as it is impossible to have a calm rational debate about this, it seems, at least on the left. Ergo, my own ignorance around these questions will remain as such since no one can discuss it with me or others who are trying to figure it all out.--David W.] John wrote the following: " So concern about trans women having unfettered access to women's spaces is patently *not* about transphobia, but about male violence - exactly the reason such female only spaces were established in the first place." Yeah...no it wasn't and it's both historically and anthropologically so much BS to say that. Original womens' only spaces were established *totally* as a function in prudery of class society. MOST primitive societies untouched by Christianity, Abrahamic religions more generally, "Western society" had no such thing as "womens spaces". People pissed, shit, washed, and did all manner of human social intercourse without regards to any sort of gender. Where I live in the Bay Area womens washrooms are going away replaced by non-gender specific ones in public. GOOD. Like the single non-gender bathroom and washrooms we find at small businesses (and that have always been found there) separating out washrooms and bathrooms was a function of KEEPING women separate from men for the obvious religious/cultural reasons and had zero to do with women spaces as "safe spaces". I've always felt the washroom/bathroom (as opposed to the changing room or locker room...a related but quite different issue) was a silly argument in terms of transwomen (or for transmen) who, for all appearances, are the sex they identify and whose outward appearance is what they choose...as wholly irrelevant to the trans rights issue anyway as trans people for centuries have used bathroom of their choice and no one is the wiser. Only the right wing has ever raised this as something to go after trans folks for. They lose every time in these arguments for that very reason. I believe in safe spaces for women *when they chose to assert this*. The issue is trickier when we are talking what substantiates a trans person and what is "merely" *just* a self-declaration of same. THAT is a huge issue (locker rooms -- also a prudery issue I should add -- and women's sports). I'll await more discussion on those if it comes up. _________________________________________________________ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
