Joseph Stalin wrote:
--- KloMcKinsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joseph Stalin wrote:
>
> > Klo
> > Quite false. If Deng and those ruling China
> today
> > were capitalist,
> > there would have been no Tien An Mien; the
> Falung
> > Gong would not be
> > restricted in what it could do; multiple
> capitalist
> > parties would be
> > operating unhindered; press restrictions would
> not
> > exist, and so on ad
> > infinitum. China, in effect, would be in as
> sorry a
> > state as present
> > day Russia.
>
> Sir, have you ever heard of revisionism?? During
> Kruschiev there was press restriction, no
> political
> parties.
>
> My reply,
> That’s correct and the Soviet Union was still a
> socialist state, as I
> have said on numerous occasions. It did not cease
> being so until Aug.
> 1991 and the subsequent “giving away” of the means
> of Prod. Dist. and
> Ex. at bargain basement prices.
That is true. The Soviet Union was still a socialist
state, but a very degraded one at that. And as time
went on, it become more and more revisionist.
Gorbachiev didn't come out of nowhere. He came out of
Kruschiev. This is the case with China. We would all
like to see China returning to socialism the way it
was laid out by Stalin and Mao.
My reply,
Fortunately it has not yet left socialism per se.
But that futuristic
hypothetical meeting of the party to return China back
or of some Stalinist leader taking power in China is
just wishfull thinking.
My reply,
If your assessment is accurate, then the demise of socialism in China
is no longer a matter of “if” but “when.”
The only other possible saving-scenario would be for the socialist
sector to expand even more rapidly than the capitalist as the pie
enlarges. The problem with this approach, however, is that the internal
capitalist elements would become increasingly better financed and their
politico-economic influence would grow geometrically. I don’t see much
hope for this strategy but can’t help but conclude that it lies at the
core of the current program. If the meeting or appearance of a
Stalin-style leader are not viable possibilities, then one can’t but
wonder how long you can simultaneously inject a patient with a poison
and its antidote and expect him to endure. Not long I fear.
The more realistic outcome,
judging from the Soviet Union, is that unless there is
a socialist (thank you for correcting my use of
communism and socialism) revolution, revisionism will
take full control of China, If it hasn't done so
already.
My reply,
It hasn’t done so already, but we agree that the trend is definitely a
matter of grave concern.
> You think being a
> communist is having no freedom, while being a
> capitalist is having all those freedoms??
>
> My reply,
> False again. I think of a socialist state as one
> dramatically
> restricting bourgeois activities and one in which
> the basic means of
> Prod. Dist. and Ex. are owned by the population in
> general which is what
> exists in China. Your use of the word “freedom”
> without reference to
> property relationships mirrors the capitalist
> depiction of same. You
> have been subtlely indoctrinated and don’t realize
> it. The word
> “freedom” should never be discussed without first
> ascertaining who has
> the wealth as freedom without wealth is a myth.
> There is not such thing
> as a free poor man, I don’t care how you arrange the
> government. The
> vast bulk of the capitalist world is dirt poor and
> that tells you how
> much freedom they have.
There are many capitalist countries out there which
don't even have bourgeois freedoms. And in China the
people don't own the means of production.
My repy,
To your latter comment I say, False. The bulk of the means of Prod,
Dist. and Ex. are still socially owned. It’s the trend that’s very
disturbing.
Hundreds of
factories are owned by foreign corporations
My reply,
Many are but most of the means of P, D. and Ex are not. Are you
claiming capitalist growth has led to a qualitative leap? That has not
occurred yet, fortunately.
(here
comes the shirt scenario),
My reply,
What is the shirt scenario?
agriculture is not
collectivized the way it should be, hell they even
allow people to but stock!As you say, no poor person
is free. And yet in China the majority of rural
farmers are extremely poor. Deng completely ignores
the needs of the farmers, and even exploited them.
that is why the majority of the people in Tianamne
were farmers. Deng reminds me more of Trotsky,
completely downplaying the importance of peasants.
My reply,
We still don’t agree on the aims and composition of the Tian An Mien
crowd.
> AH, no.Ever
> heard of bourgeois dictatorship??
>
>
> My reply,
> China is most assuredly not a bourgeois
> dictatorship.
Its getting there.
My reply,
Correct! Now you are on the mark but that is not what you said
previously when you claimed they had already arrived at bourgeoisdom.
> > Rafael
> > They don't even make an attempt at even a
> > communist image.
> >
> > Klo
> > No country has ever made an attempt at a
> “communist
> > image.” Your
> > knowledge of Marxism could do with some
> improvement.
> > If you are
> > referring to a “socialist image,” you are
> wrong
> > there as well because
> > references to Marxism and socialism are quite
> in
> > evidence.
>
> You know what I mean, god damn it!
>
>
> My reply,
> For your information I despise profanity and will
> thank you not to
> employ it again.
Thats not profanity.
My reply.
Huh? I don’t know where you come from but in my neck of the woods “God
damn it” is profanity.
But if it makes you happy I shall
correct it to "Gosh darn it!" (that is the most
unprofane way I can think of saying it)
My reply,
Thank you for taking a detour toward civility. Remember, we are trying
to create a society fit to live in in more ways than one.
> Anyhow, as you say, Trots carry red banners and
> pictures of Lenin too.
>
> My reply,
> For sure. On that we agree.
So than you agree that the image of a socialist state
China maintains may be a false one??
My reply.
Definitely not because I am not interested in images or PR. I look at
who owns what in China, what concrete restrictions are being imposed,
what actions are being taken, what nations and courses are being aided
and, very importantly, what are the current tangible trends. The
current conditions signify socialism; the trends, however, are much more
worrisome and foreboding.
> > Rafael
> > The
> > evidence is in every store you go into.
> Pick up
> > a
> > shirt or a toy or a pen, and see where it
> was
> > made.
> > Does it say "Made in China"? Most
> propably. This
> > shows
> > that the Chinese governemtn allows Foreing
> > companies
> > to exploit Chinese people at will for
> profits in
> > the
> > west. All the sky scrappers in Peking and
> > Shangai are
> > all owned by western companies. All the
> > factories and
> > sweatshops are owned by the capitalists.
> >
> > Klo
> > And your proof for this is what?
>
> My proof is that capitalist exploitation has
> entered
> into China. Are you blind!?!
>
> My reply,
> Of course it has and its significant introduction
> worries me greatly.
> Apparently you are unaware of my prior posts. I
> have discussed this
> disturbing trend on many occasions.
No, apparently I am not aware of your previous posts.
So if you are worried about the developments in China,
and you are realizing there is a distrurbing trend,
than why aren't you criticizing the Chinese policy.
My rely,
I do and I have. I have issued repeated warnings about their current
policies and the trends. But, unlike you, I have not claimed they have
already gone over the cliff. Moreover, I am not convinced their current
policy is wrong as long as they are able to reverse direction before it
is too late as Stalin did around 1928. Stalin was able to take the
Soviet Union off the drug and enter de-tox.
It
is clearly not socialist and is attempting capitalist
restoration.
My reply,
Wrong! Now you are contradicting your earlier assertion that “It’s
getting there” and reverting to your original stance that it has already
arrived. So will the real Commandante Che please stand up.
As Stalin said, criticism and
self-criticism are essential to the development of
socialism.
My reply,
And he was right as usual.
I still don't understand why you link Lenin's NEP to
what Deng did and what his followers are doing.
My reply,
Because the difference is one of degree, not kind.
Lenin
took the government in a state of total capitalist
domination of the country. The urban bourgeois were
destroyed as a class. The rural ones, the Kulaks,
couldn't be destroyed as easily. Thereofre the NEP was
actually a way of gradualy eliminating the Kulaks.
My reply,
How’s that again? How do you eliminate a group you not only allow to
grow but foster. The kulaks grew in power during the first half of the
1920’s.
What Stalin did is exactly what Lenin would have done.
My reply,
I agree.
He established collectives to gradualy eliminate the
Kulaks. Of course that exploded into a Civil War
against the Kulaks, but that dosen't matter. In China
you have a totally different picture. First of all,
the urban and the rural capitalists were eliminated
long before during Mao's time. Therefore the previous
scenario dosen't apply to China. When Deng came to
power, China was already a well established socialist
country.
My reply,
When NEP was adopted socialism was already dominant in the Soviet
Union. Are you saying it was still a capitalist country under Lenin
after the Revolution.
The bourgeois had lost all power, only the
revisionists and intelligencia like Deng and co, were
left.
My reply,
And the bourgeoisie were no longer in control of the Soviet Union after
the Revolution, the Civil War, and the Intervention.
So it is totally a capitalist restoration to
take a socialist state and allow capitalists to
engeage in exploitatio(and it is not just one or two
or a hundred.
My reply,
False. It is not “totally” a capitalist restoration; it isn’t even
primarily a capitalist restoration. The society is still basically
socialist. Are you saying allowing one capitalist to operate in a land
of 1.2 billion makes it capitalist? You say, “No.” Then how about
100? You say, “No.” Then how about 1,000? Where are you saying the
line is crossed? When and where does the qualitative leap occur in your
analysis?
All major capitalist corporation and
states have entered China) and to allow the
development of a local bourgeois class. So the NEP and
Deng have nothing in common.
My reply,
Can’t agree and now we are just repeating. And certainly not “all”
corporations are in China.
You make the same mistake
many other communists have made before. When socialism
seems to not be working properly, you immedietly jump
to capitalist restoration using as an exuse the NEP.
Vietnam did it, and it is going on the same track as
China. Gorbachiev allowed capitalist restoration,
again using as pretext the NEP.
My reply,
False! I, like Lenin, can see a situation in which partial capitalist
growth can be of assistance; indeed, needed. But the critical derision
that MUST be made is: When has it accomplished its purpose and when must
it be essentially terminated? I would submit China is already on its
feet and that point has been passed, but as I said before, a close look
at the books, records, and documents would definitely demonstrate where
conditions stand for certain. Gorbachov, on the other hand, intended
from the outset to overthrow socialism and establish capitalism. He had
no interest whatever in determining when 1928 had arrived. All he was
looking for was 1991.
We all know where that
led. China and Vietnam are both heading in the same
direction.
My reply,
I would agree with that but with a major distinction. China has passed
through the initial stage of needed capitalist encroachment, whereas
Vietnam has not.
On to of that China is engaging in military
contracts with many capitalist nations.
What communist countries should take as an example is
N. Korea and Cuba.
My reply,
Cuba has capitalist investments like China.
Sure they are suffering under
capitalist pressure and black mail, but if you give up
to these pressures, than you give up on socialism.
My reply,
I would agree with that but trade with capitalists can be mutually
beneficial. In fact, it can be advantageous depending on the agreements
negotiated.
Imagine if China was truly socialist and aided Cuba
and N.Korea. But its not doing that. People starve in
Cuba and N.Korea, while China makes economic deals and
partnerships with America. Shame on them!
My reply,
China does assist Cuba. Where do you think those tens of thousands of
bicycles came from after the Soviet Union cut off Cuba’s oil.
As for Tianenmen, again you continue to repeat what
the capitalists say. You speak of the so called
"leaders" of that rebellion. Those aren't the leaders
of anything.
My reply,
They were the spokespersons. You pick the predicate nominative you
prefer.
The only part of the rebellion shown in
capitalist press is that small group of long haired
students waving two fingers. That is all they want to
show. But the reality is that nearly a million people
came there, and most were poor peasants and workers
tired of being expolited by capitalist corporations.
The Chinese governemtn acted as a typical bourgeois
state. It used military violence to crush a rebellion.
As you know the purpose of the state in capitalism is
to do just that. And this violence was certainly not
used to put down a anti-people demonstaration, but
rather an anti-capitalist demonstration.
My reply,
Clearly we again don’t agree on the numbers, composition, or purpose of
the Tien An Mien crowd.
As for that statue, you again repeat the same old capitalist lies.
I saw no resemblance to the Statue of Liberty.
My reply,
What! Are you serious? It looked like a clone. You need to review the
pictures.
Heck,
in Albania we have a statue which looks even more like
it than the Statue of Liberty. Just because of the
statue you should not make any assumptions.
Thank you for visiting my site and I am glad you
enjoyed it. I think I have a link to your Relevance of
Marxism.
My reply,
Thanks. I appreciate the assistance.
What I have said about Albania is nothing to
what is really going on. And again we have to thank
revisionists allowing capitalist restoration with the
usual NEP excuse.
My reply
What leaders in Eastern Europe claimed to be adopting an NEP style
program to preserve socialism? Crypto-anti-Marxists simply took over
under the guidance, assistance and intimidation of Gorbachov who was the
ultimate revisionist traitor. He installed his cronies and the
dismantleling began.
The critical question in this whole issue is: At what point has
capitalism done its duty and should now be all but eliminated as a
significant force in Chinese society? An accurate decision necessitates
access to some important economic figures and political data and the
latter are often as closely guarded as military secrets. Stalin and his
allies had the data that mattered and wisely made the decision around
1928 and I am inclined to believe it should now be made in China. As
with drugs, the longer it’s postponed the more agonizing will be the
withdrawal. And if nothing is done, at some point reversal will no
longer be practical or possible and the qualitative leap to socialism
will have occurred. You claim it has already arrived, while I say it’s
looming on the horizon ever more ominously. The current leadership of
China is not composed of Gorbachovites for their economic/politico
policies would be quite different if they were. They are trying to
promote and preserve socialism via the method initiated by Lenin with
NEP. But the practical effect of their policies could very well be
indistinguishable from Gorby’s given current trends. What’s the old
adage: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” And I am
inclined to believe the capitalist devil is now providing the mortar and
bricks at bargain prices. The overriding mistake the Chinese leaders
are making is that they are unable to ascertain when the line has been
reached at which capitalism has accomplished its mission and should now
be dismantled. They can’t seem to figure out when 1928 has arrived and
unless they do the fate of socialism in China is sealed and its demise
is foreordained. NEP was never intended to be long-term process but
merely a temporary stop-gap solution to be disbanded once the Soviet
economy was functioning relatively smoothly. Based upon my knowledge of
the situation and baring the appearance of data to the contrary, China
is now “on its feet.” Indeed, the Chinese economy of today is much more
healthy comparatively speaking than the Soviet economy was when Stalin
and his supporters acted in 1928.
For the cause,
Klo
PS. My problem is not one of writing replies but in finding time to
write them.
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