Ken, One can separate how one interacts with a person of faith belief, than discussions on Marxism and history, on a Marxist site. And I did not suggest that Andrew S. or any comrade, be not allowed to post their views and concerns (just not proselytize religion). >From my view, It is okay to disagree on politics and such spaces should be >allowed to express them and consider, with of course being for socialism and not promoting capitalist interests and bigotry that divides and harms - that should always be rejected. And the posting of something that is not one's view, but just sharing for people to be aware of a document, group or effort, should also be understood is not advocacy for - but just informing. Perhaps that was what Andrew S. meant? and I jumped too soon after several of the same themed postings by him. If so, I apologize to the comrade if that was his sole intent.
Sometimes subjects take a long time to reflect and evaluate, when especially more is known. Many "immediate" events, often get "hot button" reactions and responses, without the full knowledge behind such. I have been affected by just one view or limited information, to come to a conclusion, that later I learned more of the history and context on, to come to a different conclusion (such as the U. S. efforts to remove Ghadaffi that influenced me by what initially was shared, on this very site). When I personally was involved in the Civil Rights Movement, as other movements, I participated in churches and temples and listened through religious services and marched with people holding or wearing religious based images and writings, and chose my battles and circumstances. However, there are times and places, that when a speaker is promoting hate speech, whatever the setting - that it should be challenged. Sadly, I have witnessed even recently, the acceptance of those promoting hate and bigotry - because some lives matter - more than others. And to make clear, that I am not equating when I state this - that I am referring to repressive forces of the state or capital, should be viewed as lives "to respect". I am referring to ideology and organized religious forces (not individual non-harming belief), being used by the state and capital, against workers struggles to oppose exploitation, militarism, racism, sexism, etc. Also there were some very good people among the SCLC ministers whom I knew, worked with and supported - who they understood and opposed ALL bigotry and hate and exploitation and militarism. There was much difference between MLK, James Bevel, Walter Fauntroy, as among MLK's own children and many families of all identities and backgrounds, often influenced by reactionary religious thought. Social Gospel, Liberation Theology, etc., whether from earlier times of "the prophet" Elijah, Mehdi, Zhang Jiao, MLK, Ernesto Cardenal Martinez, Daniel Berrigan, Rev. William Barber, etc. are and should be appreciated, as a moving force that motivated individuals and groups into action to oppose injustice. Karl Marx was an economist, writer and rebel to me, but not a "god" and from my view, organized religions leaders have "reasons" to accept their privileges and reliance on state and capital and willingness to adapt and support a ruling class and circles of power. btw - I am a founding member and been with for over two decades, a large U. S. labor union, that is comprised overwhelmingly of faith believer members. I am openly Gay and so is that union's international president. Hate speech, is not welcomed or supported in that union. And it remains a problem in many self-proclaimed socialist groups - that includes accepting misogyny and patriarchal views and practices, etc. ________________________________ From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Ken Hiebert <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2021 5:19 AM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [marxmail] H-Net Review [H-Buddhism]: Tam on Chau, 'Religion in China: Ties That Bind' John Obrien says: More religion proselytizing - especially regular recently by Andrew S. on Buddhism - as "Inspiration and Miracles” Ken Hiebert replies: I took look a the article posted by Andrew Stewart. I did not see any kind of religious proselytizing. It’s a review at an academic study of religious belief and practice in China. I have typically not read these articles posted by Andrew, not because I don’t think they belong here, but only because I do not have the time and energy to benefit from them. I have usually read the messages posted by John Obrien. And I have learned from them when he talks about his own experience or reminds us of the way that Bayard Rustin was treated by the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. But what I don’t get from his messages is any guidance as to how we should respond to religious institutions and practice. Knowing what we know now, how should the left have responded to the campaigns of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference? Going to their actions we could be pretty confident we’d run into religious organization and religious figures. How should we have responded to them? I wonder how many atheists stopped singing when they got to the words “God is on our side?” What should they have done? Stopped singing? Turned their backs on the podium? Should they have brought leaflets and placards denouncing religion? This is not only a question of what we should have done in the past. We need to figure this out for today. I have never been in Alabama or anywhere near there. But I am willing to guess that some of the workers now voting on whether or not to join a union are religious believers. What do we have to say to them? What should we say to them about their religious beliefs? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#7352): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/7352 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/81368949/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. -=-=- Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674936/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
