Hi y'all - I think J. needs to leave the beer alone this is the third thread on the same subject.
On Oct 29, 8:46 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "So, how much did you pay for that class? > J." > > There wasn't a chapter on that, sorry. > > Truth is that as extremely difficult as the proof was, it helped me to > know that math is subjective and relative. Even though at the time, I > was in the top 1/2 of a percent of university students in math, I > stopped studying it after this. > > On Oct 29, 5:53 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > For the record, in an advanced math class, perhaps some sort of > > abstract algebra, we spent two weeks and 28 pages of the text book > > going through the process of 'proving', literally, that 1 + 1 = 2. > > > So, how much did you pay for that class? > > > J. > > > On Oct 29, 12:59 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > I think what Clogtowner is saying is that if a mathematician comes to > > > the > > > conclusion that 2+2=12 he is no mathematician. > > > > J. > > > > "I don't know why we can't get together on this one..." > > > > Because we're talking about different things. The issue at hand is > > > the suggestion that freethought is a process - a way of deciding > > > what's probably true and what probably isn't. Freethought is not a > > > particular conclusion drawn from that process. So, *logically > > > speaking*, anyone who arrives at theism using freethought should be > > > considered a freethinker. > > > > You keep responding with some version of: "I can't imagine how a > > > person could arrive at theism using freethought." Fair enough. > > > Neither can I, but that's irrelevant. I can't be clearer than that. > > > If you really can't see the difference then I suppose we should just > > > admit that our brains are wired differently and move on. > > > > Aaron > > > > On Oct 29, 9:01 am, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Hi y'all - I don't know why we can't get together on this one - it > > > > seems perfectly clear to me. > > > > > " I can't think of any good reasons to believe in a deity. I have not > > > > > > been presented with sufficient evidence to support such a belief. > > > > So > > > > > I don't believe. If better reasons come along, I might have to > > > > > change > > > > > my mind." > > > > > I agree with your statement and that is why we are both freethinkers. > > > > The Theists do believe in a deity and they do it without the use of > > > > freethinking, hence they are not freethinkers. They believe without > > > > "good reasons" unless you consider "good reasons" to be that they were > > > > told to believe. > > > > The thought process that we use, leading to a logical conclusion, > > > > whether true or false, is completely absent from them. If they could, > > > > using critical thinking, detail logical steps that lead to the > > > > conclusion that there is a God, then I would be happy to consider it, > > > > and probably join in. > > > > > On Oct 28, 11:18 pm, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Atheism is not a prerequisite. It is a conclusion. > > > > > > Freethought is a way of deciding what is probably true and what > > > > > probably isn't. It is precisely *because* we want to believe true > > > > > things that we consider knowledge to be tentative and subject to > > > > > further evidence. > > > > > > The fact that we can't imagine how something could be true is not > > > > > sufficient reason to reject it. If there is observational evidence > > > > > that something is real, for example, then we should accept it even > > > > > if > > > > > we can't imagine (yet) how it works. > > > > > > I can't think of any good reasons to believe in a deity. I have > > > > > not > > > > > been presented with sufficient evidence to support such a belief. > > > > > So > > > > > I don't believe. If better reasons come along, I might have to > > > > > change > > > > > my mind. > > > > > > Aaron > > > > > > On Oct 28, 8:10 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > > Is a freethinker a freethinker because he is able to eliminate > > > emotion and > > > > > > bias in the formation of his conclusions or is he a freethinker > > > because he > > > > > > does not blindly accept the teachings of his childhood or because > > he > > > utilizes to > > > > > > one extent or another the tenets of informal logic in forming > > > opinions or > > > > > > what? Either way, I fail to see how one could come to a rational > > > conclusion > > > > > > that the Koran or the Bible are anything more than human > > > > > > creativity > > > or that the > > > > > > supernatural in any form is anything but bullshit. Also, of what > > > value is > > > > > > it to be a freethinker if you are factually incorrect in your > > > conclusions? I > > > > > > am sure that there is some emotional value in not having the > > cognitive > > > > > > constraints that many people have but if we are still wrong the > > fact > > > that we are > > > > > > freethinkers may hold no real value. > > > > > > > The Gospel According to Jonathan, 1883 > > > > > > > Clog, The author posits a person who becomes a theist through > > > > logic > > > > > > and reason (not faith), and asks if that person should be > > considered a > > > > > > freethinker. You just ignore his argument by asserting, "In order > > > > > > to > > > > > > be a theist one must have faith." If that's all you've got then > > > > > > that's all you've got. It's not enough for me. > > > > > > > How do you respond to this quote from Bertrand Russell: "An Arab > > who, > > > > > > starting from the first principles of human reason, is able to > > deduce > > > > > > that the Koran was not created, but existed eternally in heaven, > > may > > > > > > be counted as a free thinker, provided he is willing to listen > > > > to > > > > > > counter arguments and subject his ratiocination to critical > > > > > > scrutiny. ... What makes a free thinker is not his beliefs, but the > > > > > > way in which he holds them." > > > > > > > Aaron > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 5:56 pm, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi y'all - I'm addressing theists as he does in the article. In > > order > > > > > > > to be a theist one must have faith. Critical thinking is the > > very > > > > > > > antithesis of faith. Faith requires no thought, simply blind > > > > > > > acceptance. > > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 5:35 pm, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > You keep talking about someone who is exercising faith. > > > > > > > Lowder > > > > > > > > isn't. Why shouldn't a person who arives at his belief > > > (whatever it > > > > > > > > is) through the appropriate exercise of critical thinking > > > > and > > > logic be > > > > > > > > considered a freethinker? > > > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 5:10 pm, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi y'all - yes I've read it. In the first paragraph he > > > > poses > > > the > > > > > > > > > question "Can a theist be a freethinker?" He answers > > > "Yes," > > but > > > I > > > > > > > > > answer "No" for my given reasons. Reading Swinburne doesn't > > > change a > > > > > > > > > person's faith. In the second paragraph he lists the CFA > > > definition of > > > > > > > > > freethought which I agree with. As stated, I agree with him > > > that not > > > > > > > > > all atheists are freethinkers. Where's the conflict? > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 4:50 pm, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Clog, are you sure you read the same essay? I don't see > > > > > > a > > > connection > > > > > > > > > > between what you wrote and anything Lowder proposed. > > > > > > > > Why > > > shouldn't > > > > > > > > > > the the theist described in the essay be considered a > > > freethinker? > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 4:07 pm, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi y'all - sorry, my replies tend to be as brief as I > > can > > > make > > > > > > them, > > > > > > > > > > > and I thought I'd been clear. > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree with the premise that a theist, (truly > > > religious) can > > > > > > be a > > > > > > > > > > > Freethinker in the definition given, which I agree with. > > The > > > true > > > > > > > > > > > believer's life is based on Faith without evidence. > > Faith > > > requires > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > > thought - merely parrot fashion repetition ad > > infinitum. If > > > one is > > > > > > > > > > > going to base a substantial part of one's life on > > > > > > > Faith, > > > then I > > > > > > submit > > > > > > > > > > > that Freethinking is omitted as not only redundant, but > > > positively > > > > > > > > > > > discouraged by Faith. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 3:21 pm, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I thought he gave a good example of how a theist > > > > > > > could > > be > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > freethinker. Surely it deserves more in the way of a > > > rebuttal > > > > > > than "I > > > > > > > > > > > > disagree." Why do you disagree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 10:55 am, Clogtowner > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi y'all - I think Crotchbow is appealing. I > > > don't > > > agree with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > article posted by Aaron. The CFA definition is fine > > > with me. Of > > > > > > > > > > > > > course, if we accept a theist as being a true > > believer > > > and not > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > > > > > > someone who attends church for social reasons etc. > > > then they > > > > > > are not > > > > > > > > > > > > > practicing freethought as their faith is illogical > > (Mr. > > > Spock > > > > > > episode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
