Orn. said >>>In fact, it appears to start out with axioms that result in or even say that the transcendental is impossible. <<<
Yes, I think that is their point. That it is true that we are natural beings and do not have a supernatural "thing" controling out thoughts. Let me copy and paste what I did for CB in a post above as a possible example. >>>In response to CB <<<< Here is an excerpt from the "Spirituality" link on Natualism.org page about Tolle and his "system" of discovering "certainty". "From a naturalistic standpoint that takes human experience as a necessarily fallible guide to reality, Tolle’s claim of certainty is extraordinary and implausible. There’s no doubt that mystical or meditative states can involve the experience of overwhelming certainty, but whether or not they accurately reflect the world outside the head is another question altogether. This question can only be answered by checking to see whether there’s something in the world that corresponds to our strongly held conviction about it. This involves exactly what Tolle says isn’t necessary for certainty: external evidence or proof. Tolle of course interprets his experience in the light of the Perennial Philosophy handed down by generations of mystics and sages, but this philosophy is just that which claims that properly trained subjective experience is a reliable guide to reality. Each successive generation of mystics, the latest of which Tolle is a member, reiterates the claim, but that doesn’t help to make it plausible. " www.naturalism.org/tolle.htm I think Robert Price was making the same case in his book TOP SECRET. " stemcell On Nov 4, 7:58 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > OK stem, I think I have listened to the correct one > now.http://www.centerforinquiry.net/mp3_stream/myWimpy.html > > Your directions were fine, I just had a brain fart! > > I took a lot of notes yet am not sure I wish to combine them now. > > In general, I see naturalism as a presented in this audio as > skepticism light. Yet, not the type of skepticism that over the > millennia has sought the transcendental. More the brand that rejects > any possibility of the divine. In fact, it appears to start out with > axioms that result in or even say that the transcendental is > impossible. > > A few quick observations gleaned from the audio: > 1. Naturalism sees science as being the scientific method and this is > enough. > I find this teleological proclamation to be just that, a conclusion > wrapped up in the assumption. > > 2. Naturalism claims to be able to know everything that we NEED TO > KNOW! > The caps are mine. Again, rather than a pure search, it is yet another > relativistic view and, in this case one that is bounded by the > subjective notion of ‘need to know’, rather than anything objective. > > 3. Naturalism wishes to tear down the wall between naturalism and > supernaturalism. > Well, this is the lip service given at least. In fact, their comment > about "the data decides for or against theories in the long run (a > progressive cumulation)" precisely denies their demand for experience > being included in the three ways of naturalism > experience > reason > science > > 4. Now this hodgepodge of a philosophy makes the bizarre statement > “Nature exists based on common sense.” This is fine, IF it is given as > an axiom to start out with. Otherwise, it again appears to be a bit of > a teleological notion. And, the waffling on who has the ‘burden of > proof’, naturalism or supernaturalism and the assumptions that > transcendentalism is ‘outmoded’, to me, is almost laughable. This is > followed by some sort of testing of ‘moral knowledge’. > > 5. Quote about naturalism from the mp3: “You can derive a PRACTICAL > KIND OF MORALITY from naturalism.” – The caps are mine again. While I > have nothing against a practical approach to being as such nor as an > aspect of that which is known, in no way is it the center piece for an > epistemology let alone an ontology. In this case, what appears to be a > pseudotheology results in “enough meaning” rather than no meaning! > Again, clearly a philosophy based on relativism. > > 6. Next is the assumption that there is no cosmic mother, father etc. > and to hold this bit of faith near and dear is a sign of self > responsibility. A true amalgamation of ethics, theology and > philosophy. > > Well, as you can see through my generally hyperbolic exuberance, I > have some rather strong thoughts about the topic. I’m sure that when/ > if I read the website provided I’ll have more to spew. > > So, again, I sense that one who follows naturalism, rather than > burning at the stake those with god beliefs as most atheists are want > to do, they would take them out behind the shed and shoot them…after a > short attempt at reeducation. > > On Nov 4, 4:16 pm, stem cell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Thanks for the thoughts (and the time you spent looking in to this) > > However, I wanted to get your thoughts on naturalism...as discussed in > > the podcast with John Shook. I am just getting in to the literature. > > The link I provided onwww.naturalism.orgisa new find so when I > > heard of the podcast on Point of Inquiry my interest peaked. > > > I would like to address some points you made. > > > Orn. said >>> Oh, I have learned in > > different contexts how cruel it is to play with people who hold such > > beliefs, so I seldom engage in such activity. <<< > > > With this I totally agree. I tend to shy away from "taking away one's > > faith", which most believers "believe" a nontheist skeptic is out to > > do. To each thier own. I tend to think that methodological natualism > > is the best tool humans can use for an objective explaination of > > what's out there. The reason being...because it works. > > > On Nov 4, 6:01 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > stem, assuming that this is what you wanted me to listen to: > > > >http://www.centerforinquiry.net/mp3_stream/myWimpy.html > > > > I listened to as much as I could and skipped to the end to see the > > > conclusion. > > > > Thoughts: I had forgotten how, in my youth, I was fascinated with Erik > > > Weisz. I now even remember studying most written about his attempts at > > > such communication, prior and after death. In a way, my current > > > skepticism is in part based on his work. Oh, I have learned in > > > different contexts how cruel it is to play with people who hold such > > > beliefs, so I seldom engage in such activity. > > > > Anyway, over the decades, not only have I reached the same conclusion > > > (no communication of this kind is possible between the dead and the > > > living) but I’ve added a strong intuition for the same result. > > > > All of this is the case even though almost ever culture has stories > > > and myths about this type of communication. > > > > I don’t know what else there is to discuss. > > > > On Nov 4, 12:56 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > IF you mean the mp3 from > > > > here:http://www.pointofinquiry.org/the_12th_annual_cfi_houdini_seance/ > > > > > I'll try to listen to it and respond. Overall, I consider the things > > > > implied by the article there to be based in superstition, a form of > > > > ignorance. > > > > > On Nov 4, 12:25 pm, stem cell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > That link will take you to the Point of Inquiry pocast shows. There > > > > > are episode titles there to choose from and the episode in question > > > > > with Shook is 28th down from the podcast titled "The 12th annual CFI > > > > > Houdini Seance". > > > > > > stemcell > > > > > > On Nov 4, 2:17 pm, stem cell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > I was listening to this podcast today and thought it would be a good > > > > > > topic to discuss. I would like to get personal thoughts on this > > > > > > from > > > > > > Orn. and Aaron. I hope this link goes through. Just FYI. More > > > > > > information on this can be found atwww.naturalism.org. > > > > > > >www.pointofinquiry.org/john_shook_naturalism_and_the_scientific_outlook/ > > > > > > > stemcell- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
