Once again, I am saying that the importance of philosophy in the process shouldn't be discounted, not that philosophers are super human man gods.
liz -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Liz Purkrabek Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 2:18 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Cognitive Psychology is the Creationism of Psychology the your ears are messed up because I would never say something like that. liz -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason (Memphis) Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 2:08 PM To: Memphis Freethought Alliance Subject: Re: Cognitive Psychology is the Creationism of Psychology Liz, That sounds like a you are replacing a religion controlled theologicans with a secular religion of life controlled by a group philosophers ("masters") who control the agenda and interpret the true meaning/value of our lives. Jason On Nov 14, 9:43 pm, Isparklaria <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Nov 14, 8:42 pm, "Liz Purkrabek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > But the > > process of combining those billions upon billions of life experiences into a > > fast and fluid vision for what is and maybe what should be, well, that's > > philosophy, and science needs it like a dog needs a master. > > Liz, > > Your whole post was good and the above sentemce was both brillaint and > terribly funny. > > On Nov 14, 8:42 pm, "Liz Purkrabek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > But a philosopher, through questioning and re categorizing human experience, > > determines the kind of big questions we ask like "What does it mean to be a > > human being?" Science then asks many specific questions based on answers to > > philosophical concerns. I think it would be a mistake to discount the > > importance of philosophy to the scientific process. > > > Even HOW we conduct scientific experiments may be determined through the > > questions we ask ourselves about the nature of our "universe." Questions > > arise as to the ethical treatment of animals in experimentation or even the > > treatment of our fellow humans. Do we use the scientific method in > > determining if a chimpanzee in a laboratory deserves to be free of undue > > suffering? I suppose we do so if we measure physical responses indicative > > of pain or distress, but at the core of the question "Should we be inducing > > pain and suffering on another arguably conscious creature for our benefit?" > > is not one that seems to be answered through "pure science." > > > Are there complicated, mechanical workings, and hormones and chemicals > > interacting in an incredibly complicated way that, when combined with the > > billions of moment to moment life experiences, cause me to ask questions > > about how nice I need to be to monkeys? I don't really doubt it. But the > > process of combining those billions upon billions of life experiences into a > > fast and fluid vision for what is and maybe what should be, well, that's > > philosophy, and science needs it like a dog needs a master. > > > That may change someday if we discover the mechanism behind every thought we > > think or action we take, but something tells me that unless we suddenly all > > become seriously autistic in order to independently hold so many individual > > pieces of information, we will continue to use this quasi mysterious tool > > called philosophy coupled with intuition as a compass for scientific > > discovery. > > > Liz > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason > > (Memphis) > > Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 7:40 PM > > To: Memphis Freethought Alliance > > Subject: Re: Cognitive Psychology is the Creationism of Psychology > > > Liz and Michael, > > > "There is a lot more to the world and the world of scientific > > psychology than Skinner..." That is exactly right and exactly what > > Skinner advocated. Skinner doesn't even exist anymore. What > > behaviorists (including Skinner) advocated was a study of human > > behavior using science. Even Skinner used words such anger and so > > forth in his writings; however, he was referring to internal events > > (natural phenomenon) that behavioral scientists don't understand yet-- > > not some mystical aspect of animals called emotion. > > > Michael, you wrote, "Philosophers are now and have always been > > considered the final authority in deciding what is good science." > > That is backwards and utterly wrong. Philosophers are most definitely > > not the final authority of good science. Also, other scientists have > > judged good science in the past especially the recent past. Events in > > nature are ultimately the final authority of good science, confirmed > > by observation and experiments in loose natural and controlled > > experimental settings. Scientists are much better judges of > > determining whether these experiments are important in unraveling > > natural events than philosophers. There are few philosophers who > > judge whether a chemical, physics, behavioral, or other experiment > > yields good results and was conducted well. Most of the writers and > > reviewers in science journals are scientists. > > > Jason > > > On Nov 14, 4:31 pm, "Liz Purkrabek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > "There is a lot more to the world and the world of > > > scientific psychology than Skinner..." > > > > In my uneducated opinion, I would have to agree. And by making this > > > statement, I am not proposing that any observations made by other current > > or > > > future disciplines need be supernatural in nature. Just thought I'd make > > > that clear before I get the "What else is there?" bit. :-) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > > > Isparklaria > > > Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 4:18 PM > > > To: Memphis Freethought Alliance > > > Subject: Re: Cognitive Psychology is the Creationism of Psychology > > > > On Nov 14, 11:28 am, "Jason (Memphis)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > Michael, > > > > > I think that you are mixing philosophers and scientists. > > > > Jason this is a quick answer, since I am waiting to judge a debate > > > that will start soon. Science or natural science, which was once > > > called natural philosophy, is now and always has been a branch of > > > epistemology. Philosophers, scientists and regular folks like us have > > > always debated and determined what is good science for a in a > > > particular subject area. The example you quoted above with the tree is > > > a poor analogy. People use words like goal, anger and so forth and > > > these words ca be investigated and modeled. > > > > Cognitive scientist make and test models of minds using communication > > > theory. Communication theory (aka cybernetics) is an empirical > > > science. Computer scientists build and program machines that have > > > behavior, so their research is empirical. It is no guarantee that the > > > human mind works the same way even if they can produce aspects of > > > human behavior. Until brain/mind research makes huge strides, > > > cybernetic modeling is the best way to move forward. Neuroscientists > > > will eventually look for structures that can perform like the models > > > made by computer scientists and cognitive scientists. This is a common > > > practice most forms of science. Physicists, for example look for > > > particles that are needed to fill certain roles. > > > > Philosophers are now and have always been considered the final > > > authority in deciding what is good science. Those philosophers are > > > also usually scientists in the fields they consider. They now what > > > they are talking about and offer clear arguments that persuade the > > > lesser philosophers and scientists, or don't. You might benefit from > > > getting out of the strict Skinner behavior box with you thinking about > > > behavior more often. There is a lot more to the world and the world of > > > scientific psychology than Skinner, though he and his disciples have > > > been significant contributors > > > > On Nov 14, 2:22 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > Michael, > > > > > Newton (and others) had the same issue when arguing with "scientists" > > > > of their time. For example, "scientists" could argue that oak wood > > > > burned hotter than pinewood because oak wood possessed an angrier > > > > personality (or the essences of the woods were different). Newton > > > > changed the focus from (a) searches for and understanding of essences > > > > (or personalities) of oak and pinewood to (b) differences in structure > > > > and responses to environmental inputs, for example, the temperature > > > > output differences (responses) of the two woods when set on fire. > > > > > The second method bore more fruit and progress/understanding could be > > > > more objectively measured verses relying on someone's subjective > > > > opinion of progress. In "Science and Human Behavior (1953)," Skinner > > > > suggested that behavior scientists apply a similar type of method to > > > > studying animals including humans. Watson, Pavlov, etc also used > > > > these types of methods as well as William James to a certain degree. > > > > Objective psychology is the nearest (but not quite) equivalent to > > > > Behavior Analysis. > > > > > Jason > > > > > On Nov 14, 11:28 am, "Jason (Memphis)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Michael, > > > > > > I think that you are mixing philosophers and scientists. At > > > > > universities such as Stanford, the university accountants also > > > > > criticize scientists for spending too much money on lab equipment. > > > > > The accounting office often tells the scientists, "Why can't you > > > > > scientists be more like the mathematicians? The mathematicians only > > > > > ask for paper, pencils and waste baskets. Better yet, why can't you > > > > > scientists be more like the philosophers? Philosophers ask us to buy > > > > > paper and pencils and don't even want waste baskets." > > > > > > Read any cognitive psychology journal and you will find "attitudes" > > > > > and other psychic or mind constructs used as explanations for > > > > > behavior. Are these ghosts in the organisms strawman arguments? > > > > > Perhaps...but I doubt it. > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > On Nov 14, 9:55 am, Isparklaria <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > On Nov 14, 9:00 am, "Jason (Memphis)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > By the same token, cognitive psychologists argued that nobody can > > > see > > > > > > > (so to speak) how complex organic behavior could've evolved (all > > > > > > > natural) via natural selection; therefore, there supposedly must > > be > > > a > > > > > > > psychic force or mind that CAUSED or HAD A HAND IN these > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. 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