Envy you living in Pac NW. Windpower is growing fast out there and we saw lots of mill-fields going up around Sac and north bay before we moved in 05. Some of my friends think too many units will possibly cause a negative effect on the weather patterns, but I don't think so because they are only used on ground level wind layer, and the people that put them there already have done research to make sure they are optimaly placed. We wanted to go geo-thermal for our house but down here in the south it was not practical for various reasons. What gets me is the same people that think the turbines are ugly are the same ones that bitch about gasoline etc. We thought they were elegant and peaceful....Ha. Maybe if we painted them yellow and called them flowers...
We used to fly over to the 4-9er diner in Sonoma for lunch. I've been wine tasting up and down that highway!! Beautiful Valley! On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:15 AM, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > Living in the Pacific NW, we have been using wind for a long time. > While living in Sonoma county, CA, I could see the steam arising out > of the geothermal collectors from my window. > Over 30 years ago, while living in Gainesville FL, the local airport > was rebuilt with solar power as it's only means of power. People came > to see it from all over the world. They even had the guts of the solar > plant have a large floor to ceiling window to the outside so everyone > could see it. Pipes and other stuff were all color codes. > > http://www.rnp.org/renewtech/tech_wind.html > > http://www.windpowermaps.org/windmaps/windmaps.asp > > Gainesville solar today > http://www.gainesville.com/article/20081121/NEWS/811211012 > > > > On Nov 25, 8:12 am, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Check out the latest on Solar from MIT. Like you, I think solar is the > way > > to go. While we are at it...stick some uber solar panels in the > Lagrangian > > point and use it to power earth and the moonbase...ah...sigh! > > > > http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > Hi y'all - I'm sure this article helps to sell newspapers. We are in a > > > business cycle that will eventually recover. Admittedly, its severity > > > is unusual, but it had to happen as we've been printing money and > > > borrowing without collateral for years. Of course we are not the only > > > ones, and to tie this in to your other Keynsian post, we are not yet > > > ready for a world bank. Had we been on the gold standard most of this > > > would have been avoided. > > > In my recent travels, I've been astonished at how fast the wind > > > turbine industry is growing. Solar panels are harder to spot, but I'm > > > sure they are there too. People want instant results and that won't > > > happen, but scaremongering sells papers and creates awareness. > > > Man has an infinite capacity to adapt and invent - there is nothing > > > new under the sun. I have confidence in my fellow man (as long as they > > > are not religious!) > > > > > On Nov 25, 9:37 am, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > The current dialectic being touted appears to be: > > > > Healthy Planet vs. Healthy Economy > > > > > > My guess is that without the former, there will be no life left to > > > > enjoy the latter. While both are important, the conservation instinct > > > > seems to have to come first when it comes to prioritization. What do > > > > you think? > > > > > > ornamentalmind > > > > > > From the New York Times: > > > > > > November 25, 2008 > > > > Economic Slump May Limit Moves on Clean Energy > > > > By ELISABETH ROSENTHAL > > > > Just as the world seemed poised to combat global warming more > > > > aggressively, the economic slump and plunging prices of coal and oil > > > > are upending plans to wean businesses and consumers from fossil fuel. > > > > From Italy to China, the threat to jobs, profits and government tax > > > > revenues posed by the financial crisis has cast doubt on commitments > > > > to cap emissions or phase out polluting factories. > > > > Automakers, especially Detroit's Big Three, face collapsing sales, > > > > threatening their plans to invest heavily in more fuel-efficient > cars. > > > > And with gas prices now around $2 a gallon in the United States, > > > > struggling consumers may be less inclined than they once were to > trade > > > > in their gas-guzzling models in any case. > > > > President-elect Barack Obama and the European Union have vowed to > > > > stick to commitments to cap emissions of carbon dioxide and invest in > > > > new green technologies, arguing that government action could > stimulate > > > > the economy and create new jobs in producing sustainable energy. > > > > But as the United Nations prepares to gather the world's environment > > > > ministers in Poznan, Poland, next week to try to agree on a new > treaty > > > > to reduce emissions, both the political will and the economic > > > > underpinnings for a much more assertive strategy appear shakier than > > > > they did even a few weeks ago. > > > > "Yes things have changed," said Yvo de Boer, executive secretary of > > > > the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, in a phone > > > > interview. He is organizing the meeting in Poland. > > > > "European industry is saying we can't deal with financial crisis and > > > > reduce emissions at the same time," he said. "Heads of government > have > > > > other things on their minds." > > > > The economic decline also could complicate the political calculus of > > > > limiting emissions in developing countries, especially China. > > > > China overtook the United States as the largest producer of > greenhouse > > > > gases in 2007. But the surge in heavy industry there that produced a > > > > sharp increase in its emissions already has given signs of turning > > > > into a bust. > > > > Some experts argue that China's emissions — and the pressing need to > > > > limit them — may recede until economic conditions improve. > > > > No government has officially repudiated climate goals; in Bali last > > > > year, all the nations of the world promised to pursue an emissions > > > > control treaty. Mr. de Boer said he remained optimistic that major > > > > powers would ultimately stick to pledges to reduce emissions. > > > > "I don't think anyone will show the stupidity to focus on the short > > > > term and ignore the long-term issue because these decisions will be > > > > with us for 30 years," he said. > > > > Even so, there are signs of considerable backpedaling in at least > near- > > > > term commitments to invest in green technology and alternative > > > > energy. > > > > Italy's environment minister, Stefania Prestigiacomo, said last month > > > > that "profound changes" were needed in the European Union climate > > > > package because of the global economic crisis. Coal-based economies > > > > like Poland's have expressed similar worries. > > > > Theolia, one of France's largest alternative energy companies, has > > > > canceled plans for a subsidiary devoted to emerging markets, and > > > > pulled back on its goals of how much energy it could produce by 2009. > > > > In the United States, T. Boone Pickens, the Oklahoma oil tycoon who > > > > leased hundreds of thousands of acres in West Texas for a giant wind > > > > farm, has now delayed the project. He told reporters at a recent news > > > > conference that fossil fuel prices would have to rise again before it > > > > was economically viable. > > > > Barbara Helfferich, the European Commission spokeswoman on the > > > > environment, said, "Investing in reducing emission is more difficult > > > > to do in times of economic downturn than when you have money to > > > > spend." > > > > Mr. Obama, Mr. de Boer and Stavros Dimas, the European Union > > > > environment commissioner, all argue that by promoting new green jobs, > > > > even with heavy government subsidies, they could create an engine of > > > > economic growth that would help countries pull themselves out of the > > > > recession. > > > > Mr. Obama, without releasing specifics of his proposed economic > > > > stimulus package, called on the country to build "wind farms and > solar > > > > panels, fuel-efficient cars and the alternative energy technologies > > > > that can free us from our dependence on foreign oil and keep our > > > > economy competitive in the years ahead." > > > > The European Commission says it is planning to stay its course toward > > > > lower emissions — a 20-percent reduction by 2020 — and in so doing > > > > hopes to have a "first mover advantage" in terms of job creation, > > > > renewable sources and energy innovation once the global economy > > > > rebounds. > > > > "I know it sounds counterintuitive, but our argument is that because > > > > there is an economic turndown, it is just the time to tackle the > > > > transition from a high-carbon to a low-carbon economy," Ms. > Helfferich > > > > said. > > > > Recessions can be good or bad for achieving environmental goals, and > > > > it remains uncertain how this one will play out. > > > > In the short term, economic declines tend to reduce emissions, > because > > > > industrial production slows down. Retrenchment will certainly curb > > > > fast-growing emissions from China, for example, where double-digit > > > > economic growth has been based partly on production from the most > > > > polluting industries, such as steel, cement and aluminum. But such > > > > reductions are inevitably temporary, rebounding when the economy > picks > > > > up. > > > > Against this, the current economic slump could have serious long-term > > > > environmental consequences, because it may reduce investment in > > > > greener production technologies without fundamentally changing the > > > > longer-term emissions picture. With so many renewable energy projects > > > > and programs in their nascent stages, their success is easily > undercut > > > > by lack of credit or financing. > > > > Centrica, a British company that has been building wind farms to meet > > > > its target of having 15 percent of that country's energy come from > > > > renewable sources by 2020, has put three planned offshore wind farms > > > > on hold, in part because of rising credit costs. Without projects > like > > > > these it is unclear if Britain's ambitious emissions reductions > target > > > > can be met. > > > > At the same time, the price of buying permits to emit carbon dioxide > > > > in Europe — a system the European Union uses to discourage companies > > > > from polluting — have fallen by half compared with the price a year > > > > ago, largely because of slower growth. > > > > Wind costs more than $2.5 billion per gigawatt to build, compared > with > > > > $600 million for gas. Carbon permits and subsidies can narrow that > > > > gap, but the current low prices mean that it is cheaper to burn coal, > > > > even after paying penalties for the carbon dioxide emissions. > > > > The United Nations says that 40 percent of the world's power > > > > generating capacity has to be replaced in the next 5 to 10 years. Six > > > > months ago, high oil prices, easy credit and political pressure led > > > > many governments to promote biofuels, wind farms and nuclear projects > > > > and phase out fossil fuel plants. But the logic of spending more on > > > > such plants has at least partly evaporated. > > > > "If because of the current economic scenario, you choose cheap and > > > > dirty, we'll be in big trouble," Mr. de Boer said. > > > > Paradoxically, it may not look that way, at least at first. One big > > > > short-term effect of the economic situation is likely to be a > > > > reduction of emissions from the developing world. In the decade after > > > > the Eastern bloc countries gained independence in 1989, pollution > > > > dropped precipitously, as Soviet-era heavy industry shut down. > > > > Emissions dropped sharply between 1990 and 2000, only to start > > > > rebounding in the boom years after 2000. By 2006, for example, > > > > emissions dropped by 1 percent in industrialized countries > > > > ... > > > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > -- gnothe se auton --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
