Hi y'all - I can't agree with you on this. Neither the Govt. nor the whole citizenry of this country should be in the car business. As the Govt. controls the spending I have no objections to loans in the interest of the country with strings to ensure repayment, and hopefully, a profit. The Govt. does a good job of backing up our bank accounts FDIC (so far.) I do agree about the banks. They should have been offered the same deal.
On Dec 9, 10:49 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Again, the notion of nationalization isn't being mentioned. I would be > for that. At least that way, 'we the people' would get some sort of > return on our investment. By now, we should own almost every US bank. > > On Dec 9, 2:30 pm, Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > <<$70/hr. with no reference to benefits. I >> > > > That includes benefits to *retirees*. > > > According to my limited accounting, the benefits that retirees receive > > should be expensed as they occurred and not attached to future > > employees. I'd like to see this topic explored in greater detail. > > > On Dec 9, 2:39 pm, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hi y'all - I've just done some further research on payscales and I've > > > come up with no solid answer. The UAW (I'd expect them to be biased) > > > mention $30/hr plus benefits (what do the benefits amount to?) Faux > > > news and the like mention (I'd expect them to be biased too) $70/hr. > > > with no reference to benefits. I suppose the truth is somewhere in > > > between In any event, these rates seem rather high to a poor old Mid > > > Southerner for manual labor. Why don't they locate their factories > > > (not overseas) where labor is cheaper? I don't know what the pay rates > > > are at the Tennessee Saturn Plant - they seem to be struggling too. > > > I'm sure a plant located in North Mississippi would be more > > > economical, but would the drug free, semi skilled, reliable labor > > > force be available? > > > > On Dec 9, 11:26 am, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > The true average is represented below - it is not $70 per hour, per > > > > se. SPIN DOCTORS are at it again. > > > > > *"That $70 per hour figure is arrived at by dividing total labour costs > > > > by > > > > the total number of workers, then by average hours worked. It also > > > > happens > > > > to include pension obligations for GM, which is comprised of current > > > > payments accrued by past workers. So, while the average worker probably > > > > makes closer to **$30 per > > > > hour*<http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/gm/gm02.php> > > > > *, the total wages paid out include payments to retirees who have > > > > chosen to > > > > defer payment of their wages."* > > > > > I personally don't have as much pity as I maybe should for the > > > > businesses > > > > that are drowning in overstock. It is hard to imagine Mom & Pop > > > > businesses > > > > with dangerous overstock - because it is not easy for them to get the > > > > capitol to get the inventory in the first place. No, I think it is the > > > > retail giant/corpses with excess inventory they cannot sell, with > > > > bloated > > > > expectations, that have also been charging too damn much for little > > > > (think > > > > inflation, right?). > > > > > Good Mom & Pops, like I work for, plan ahead, and use stable business > > > > practices to keep afloat. Most businesses flop in the first year due to > > > > crappy planning anyway..is it our responsability as a consumer to rescue > > > > them or the Corpses? Homoconsumerensis to the rescue? It's their job > > > > to do > > > > thier homework just like each individual needs to guard their credit > > > > score. I know about hard luck, it happens, but haven't we grown far too > > > > careless in our Hummer driving, McDonald's grubbing, plastic burning, > > > > reality tv watching, FUNK? As you can tell I am feeling miserly this > > > > morning... > > > > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Hi y'all - welcome to capitalism. The good times are great, but > > > > > business is cyclical and must be prepared for. He who builds his > > > > > business out of unsupported credit will fail. The Govt. Bailout of the > > > > > car industry is supposed to be a loan with strings - nothing wrong > > > > > with that, as long as the taxpayer benefits?? In the interest of > > > > > preserving some manufacturing base in this country, it would seem to > > > > > be justified. Having said that, the strings must be tight - why do GM > > > > > etc. workers average $70/hr when Toyota doing the same job in the same > > > > > country average $40? That would be one of the strings if I was making > > > > > the loan. > > > > > As for the retail sector - it is complex and unwieldy. I'm not sure > > > > > what sort of Bailout the author is suggesting - perhaps low interest > > > > > loans to qualified businesses. This brings us back to unsupported > > > > > credit. I'm afraid that those who cannot survive the present downturn > > > > > are doomed, and if they have no backup plan, perhaps that is > > > > > warranted. The only alternatives are anarchism or communism? > > > > > > On Dec 9, 10:14 am, Morpheal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > WASHINGTON MUST BAILOUT RETAIL SECTOR > > > > > > > Keep in mind that retail needs an urgent bailout. They are not as > > > > > > big > > > > > > as GM, Ford and > > > > > > Chrysler. Most are far from being large corporations. Many are one > > > > > > person enterprises, or mom and pop shops, with family helping keep > > > > > > the > > > > > > business going. They do not have the resources of GM, Chrysler, > > > > > > Ford, > > > > > > to go to Washington to petition government for help, but they need > > > > > > help even more than GM, Ford, or Chrysler. > > > > > > > Late autumn and early winter sales statistics, (and that includes > > > > > > actual profit margins after costs are deducted from sales not simply > > > > > > panic sell off of severely discounted or very low margin items to > > > > > > create volume of sales without profits), are what keep the retail > > > > > > sector alive during the dismal after Boxing Day mid to late winter > > > > > > traditional slump. Total dollars of sales are not a reliable or > > > > > > meaningful statistic. You can sell billions of dollars in goods, but > > > > > > lose your shirt in the process, if margins are nonexistent on the > > > > > > bottom line. Bottom line visibility is not one of the immediate > > > > > > economic indicator that it should be. Consumer spend, in total > > > > > > dollars, is what politicians tend to measure the economy on. That > > > > > > is, > > > > > > in this crisis, very misleading. Unfortunately the bottom line > > > > > > numbers > > > > > > do not tend to get published into public view, in the month that > > > > > > they > > > > > > occur. Often they are severely delayed and usually fairly obscure > > > > > > numbers. > > > > > > > Without solid revenues in November and December, coming into January > > > > > > means total disaster, with no hope for many to meet their fiscal > > > > > > obligations to get through the traditional slump. Those stuck with > > > > > > excess inventory, and having to sell off at below cost, simply to > > > > > > reduce debt, are in even worse shape to weather through the latter > > > > > > part of January and most of February and March. This is even more > > > > > > true of the mom and pop shop, the small entrepreneur, the > > > > > > independent > > > > > > business, or loosely affiliated franchisee or owner in a group of > > > > > > independent merchants. Many a franchise, though providing services > > > > > > to > > > > > > franchisees (that they must pay for regardless of their current > > > > > > revenue situation), is largely an independent entity relying on its > > > > > > own sales revenue for its survival, quite apart from the brand name > > > > > > on > > > > > > the chain as a whole. Unfortunately a franchise is often more > > > > > > constrained as to business practices, and while this works well > > > > > > enough > > > > > > in good or average times, when tough times hit, the franchise can > > > > > > find > > > > > > itself hog tied to practices that are expensive and inadequate in > > > > > > terms of the changed situation. > > > > > > > In many parts of the country the winter slump also means the highest > > > > > > costs for heating, > > > > > > which adds to the cost of keeping retail doors open. There are fixed > > > > > > costs for energy, rent or lease payments for premises and sometimes > > > > > > equipment, inventory carrying costs, and > > > > > > necessary maintenance. Even cutting costs to the bare bones, leaves > > > > > > significant bills to pay, and the typical "mom and pop" enterprise > > > > > > is > > > > > > at best a courageous effort, but in tough times it becomes an unjust > > > > > > form of struggle. Nevertheless many are dependent for their incomes > > > > > > on exactly that. > > > > > > > One of the increasing dangers of the rise of the electronic mall, > > > > > > and > > > > > > internet shopping, has been the destructive impact upon society of a > > > > > > desocialized, depersonalized mode of commerce. In the past the > > > > > > social > > > > > > element, personalized connection with the long time owners, who were > > > > > > more friends than simply proprietors of a business, was at the core > > > > > > of > > > > > > North American life. The electronic mall has eroded that vital > > > > > > institution, and continues to cause immense, perhaps irreparable > > > > > > damage to society. In some significant instances personalized, > > > > > > social, > > > > > > shopping was one of the main forms of social connection, for many > > > > > > people. Without that society itself becomes increasingly > > > > > > dysfunctional > > > > > > and unable to replace that element within society with any suitable > > > > > > and effective alternative. > > > > > > > The economic downturn further threatens that same institution, along > > > > > > with the effect of large high pressure, high volume, discounters and > > > > > > superstores, where shopping sometimes offers some fiscal advantage, > > > > > > but is otherwise far from being a pleasant experience, socially and > > > > > > psychologically. Those megastores cannot meet the same needs. Not to > > > > > > mention that they exist on relatively small margins supported only > > > > > > by > > > > > > their more massive buying power. Nevertheless, the megastores cannot > > > > > > replace the institution of "mom and pop" enterprises, of family run > > > > > > businesses, where social and personal connection were at the core of > > > > > > commercial transactions. > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
