I'm not for Free Rein Capitalism anymore, but I am in favor of regulations x 10 FOR LARGE CORPORATIONS! We have to have a mixed system. Does anyone else think we capitalized ourselves into a greedy consumerist monster with the total freemarket sans-regulations system? I am for a bit of Nationalism if it keeps us from hanging ourselves. Look what we have done, looked the other way, while the Corpses have us all by the shorthairs!
ANYTHING that risks large segments of our society/population needs strings and more strings. On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi y'all - I can't agree with you on this. Neither the Govt. nor the > whole citizenry of this country should be in the car business. As the > Govt. controls the spending I have no objections to loans in the > interest of the country with strings to ensure repayment, and > hopefully, a profit. The Govt. does a good job of backing up our bank > accounts FDIC (so far.) > I do agree about the banks. They should have been offered the same > deal. > > On Dec 9, 10:49 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Again, the notion of nationalization isn't being mentioned. I would be > > for that. At least that way, 'we the people' would get some sort of > > return on our investment. By now, we should own almost every US bank. > > > > On Dec 9, 2:30 pm, Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > <<$70/hr. with no reference to benefits. I >> > > > > > That includes benefits to *retirees*. > > > > > According to my limited accounting, the benefits that retirees receive > > > should be expensed as they occurred and not attached to future > > > employees. I'd like to see this topic explored in greater detail. > > > > > On Dec 9, 2:39 pm, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Hi y'all - I've just done some further research on payscales and I've > > > > come up with no solid answer. The UAW (I'd expect them to be biased) > > > > mention $30/hr plus benefits (what do the benefits amount to?) Faux > > > > news and the like mention (I'd expect them to be biased too) $70/hr. > > > > with no reference to benefits. I suppose the truth is somewhere in > > > > between In any event, these rates seem rather high to a poor old Mid > > > > Southerner for manual labor. Why don't they locate their factories > > > > (not overseas) where labor is cheaper? I don't know what the pay > rates > > > > are at the Tennessee Saturn Plant - they seem to be struggling too. > > > > I'm sure a plant located in North Mississippi would be more > > > > economical, but would the drug free, semi skilled, reliable labor > > > > force be available? > > > > > > On Dec 9, 11:26 am, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > The true average is represented below - it is not $70 per hour, per > > > > > se. SPIN DOCTORS are at it again. > > > > > > > *"That $70 per hour figure is arrived at by dividing total labour > costs by > > > > > the total number of workers, then by average hours worked. It also > happens > > > > > to include pension obligations for GM, which is comprised of > current > > > > > payments accrued by past workers. So, while the average worker > probably > > > > > makes closer to **$30 per hour*< > http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/gm/gm02.php> > > > > > *, the total wages paid out include payments to retirees who have > chosen to > > > > > defer payment of their wages."* > > > > > > > I personally don't have as much pity as I maybe should for the > businesses > > > > > that are drowning in overstock. It is hard to imagine Mom & Pop > businesses > > > > > with dangerous overstock - because it is not easy for them to get > the > > > > > capitol to get the inventory in the first place. No, I think it is > the > > > > > retail giant/corpses with excess inventory they cannot sell, with > bloated > > > > > expectations, that have also been charging too damn much for little > (think > > > > > inflation, right?). > > > > > > > Good Mom & Pops, like I work for, plan ahead, and use stable > business > > > > > practices to keep afloat. Most businesses flop in the first year > due to > > > > > crappy planning anyway..is it our responsability as a consumer to > rescue > > > > > them or the Corpses? Homoconsumerensis to the rescue? It's their > job to do > > > > > thier homework just like each individual needs to guard their > credit > > > > > score. I know about hard luck, it happens, but haven't we grown far > too > > > > > careless in our Hummer driving, McDonald's grubbing, plastic > burning, > > > > > reality tv watching, FUNK? As you can tell I am feeling miserly > this > > > > > morning... > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi y'all - welcome to capitalism. The good times are great, but > > > > > > business is cyclical and must be prepared for. He who builds his > > > > > > business out of unsupported credit will fail. The Govt. Bailout > of the > > > > > > car industry is supposed to be a loan with strings - nothing > wrong > > > > > > with that, as long as the taxpayer benefits?? In the interest of > > > > > > preserving some manufacturing base in this country, it would seem > to > > > > > > be justified. Having said that, the strings must be tight - why > do GM > > > > > > etc. workers average $70/hr when Toyota doing the same job in the > same > > > > > > country average $40? That would be one of the strings if I was > making > > > > > > the loan. > > > > > > As for the retail sector - it is complex and unwieldy. I'm not > sure > > > > > > what sort of Bailout the author is suggesting - perhaps low > interest > > > > > > loans to qualified businesses. This brings us back to unsupported > > > > > > credit. I'm afraid that those who cannot survive the present > downturn > > > > > > are doomed, and if they have no backup plan, perhaps that is > > > > > > warranted. The only alternatives are anarchism or communism? > > > > > > > > On Dec 9, 10:14 am, Morpheal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > WASHINGTON MUST BAILOUT RETAIL SECTOR > > > > > > > > > Keep in mind that retail needs an urgent bailout. They are not > as big > > > > > > > as GM, Ford and > > > > > > > Chrysler. Most are far from being large corporations. Many are > one > > > > > > > person enterprises, or mom and pop shops, with family helping > keep the > > > > > > > business going. They do not have the resources of GM, Chrysler, > Ford, > > > > > > > to go to Washington to petition government for help, but they > need > > > > > > > help even more than GM, Ford, or Chrysler. > > > > > > > > > Late autumn and early winter sales statistics, (and that > includes > > > > > > > actual profit margins after costs are deducted from sales not > simply > > > > > > > panic sell off of severely discounted or very low margin items > to > > > > > > > create volume of sales without profits), are what keep the > retail > > > > > > > sector alive during the dismal after Boxing Day mid to late > winter > > > > > > > traditional slump. Total dollars of sales are not a reliable or > > > > > > > meaningful statistic. You can sell billions of dollars in > goods, but > > > > > > > lose your shirt in the process, if margins are nonexistent on > the > > > > > > > bottom line. Bottom line visibility is not one of the immediate > > > > > > > economic indicator that it should be. Consumer spend, in total > > > > > > > dollars, is what politicians tend to measure the economy on. > That is, > > > > > > > in this crisis, very misleading. Unfortunately the bottom line > numbers > > > > > > > do not tend to get published into public view, in the month > that they > > > > > > > occur. Often they are severely delayed and usually fairly > obscure > > > > > > > numbers. > > > > > > > > > Without solid revenues in November and December, coming into > January > > > > > > > means total disaster, with no hope for many to meet their > fiscal > > > > > > > obligations to get through the traditional slump. Those stuck > with > > > > > > > excess inventory, and having to sell off at below cost, simply > to > > > > > > > reduce debt, are in even worse shape to weather through the > latter > > > > > > > part of January and most of February and March. This is even > more > > > > > > > true of the mom and pop shop, the small entrepreneur, the > independent > > > > > > > business, or loosely affiliated franchisee or owner in a group > of > > > > > > > independent merchants. Many a franchise, though providing > services to > > > > > > > franchisees (that they must pay for regardless of their current > > > > > > > revenue situation), is largely an independent entity relying on > its > > > > > > > own sales revenue for its survival, quite apart from the brand > name on > > > > > > > the chain as a whole. Unfortunately a franchise is often more > > > > > > > constrained as to business practices, and while this works well > enough > > > > > > > in good or average times, when tough times hit, the franchise > can find > > > > > > > itself hog tied to practices that are expensive and inadequate > in > > > > > > > terms of the changed situation. > > > > > > > > > In many parts of the country the winter slump also means the > highest > > > > > > > costs for heating, > > > > > > > which adds to the cost of keeping retail doors open. There are > fixed > > > > > > > costs for energy, rent or lease payments for premises and > sometimes > > > > > > > equipment, inventory carrying costs, and > > > > > > > necessary maintenance. Even cutting costs to the bare bones, > leaves > > > > > > > significant bills to pay, and the typical "mom and pop" > enterprise is > > > > > > > at best a courageous effort, but in tough times it becomes an > unjust > > > > > > > form of struggle. Nevertheless many are dependent for their > incomes > > > > > > > on exactly that. > > > > > > > > > One of the increasing dangers of the rise of the electronic > mall, and > > > > > > > internet shopping, has been the destructive impact upon society > of a > > > > > > > desocialized, depersonalized mode of commerce. In the past the > social > > > > > > > element, personalized connection with the long time owners, who > were > > > > > > > more friends than simply proprietors of a business, was at the > core of > > > > > > > North American life. The electronic mall has eroded that vital > > > > > > > institution, and continues to cause immense, perhaps > irreparable > > > > > > > damage to society. In some significant instances personalized, > social, > > > > > > > shopping was one of the main forms of social connection, for > many > > > > > > > people. Without that society itself becomes increasingly > dysfunctional > > > > > > > and unable to replace that element within society with any > suitable > > > > > > > and effective alternative. > > > > > > > > > The economic downturn further threatens that same institution, > along > > > > > > > with the effect of large high pressure, high volume, > discounters and > > > > > > > superstores, where shopping sometimes offers some fiscal > advantage, > > > > > > > but is otherwise far from being a pleasant experience, socially > and > > > > > > > psychologically. Those megastores cannot meet the same needs. > Not to > > > > > > > mention that they exist on relatively small margins supported > only by > > > > > > > their more massive buying power. Nevertheless, the megastores > cannot > > > > > > > replace the institution of "mom and pop" enterprises, of family > run > > > > > > > businesses, where social and personal connection were at the > core of > > > > > > > commercial transactions. > > > > ... > > > > read more ยป- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > -- gnothe se auton --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
