Hi John, Ed, and List, We are close to agreement. I always defer to the Met Bulletin when calling any meteorite a "fall" or "hammer fall". Despite everything I said about New Orleans, it is listed in the official Met Bulletin as a fall. So I feel comfortable adding "hammer fall" to it.
I guess a "hammer find" would be more rare in some ways. ;) Best regards, MikeG -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 ----------------------------------------------------------- On 6/14/12, John Hendry <p...@pict.co.uk> wrote: > Michael, > > great expositon, and a good example of what I was thinking about. However I > > am still failing to parse the language used to square with what would be the > > normally understood meaning in the english language. If I may quote your > analysis here and there. > >> Let me put it this way - New Orleans is a recent example of an >> unwitnessed hammer that is considered a fall. > Got it. > >> In this particular case, nobody directly witnessed the fall or the >> damage >> being done. > Understood. > >> if it is a >> hammer in the true and accepted sense, then it could be called a >> "hammer fall" or "witnessed fall" or "observed fall" or just a "fall" > > Having cognitive issues at this juncture. If it isn't witnessed, but it is > considered a 'hammer fall', then how can 'hammer falls', in their entirity, > > be a subset of witnessed or observed falls. Surely the definition of fall > must therefore include unobserved meteorite arrivals (i.e. unobserved hammer > > falls).You cannot have a witnessed unwitnessed event. Well not in my book > anyway. Then again I am not Orwell. > > Personally, I think it's bad nomenclature, but I can easily imagine how this > > sort of stuff arises. A few weeks ago after reading some of the many Sutters > > Mill accounts from the field I went for an idle stroll along a deserted > track in rural Ukraine. I noticed in the distance some semilustrous > subspherical objects, and for a while on my approach my imagination was > giving rise to mild tachycardia. On intimate inspection I found some nicely > > dimpled droppings from a deer or something. After recovery from this > crushing disappointment, I thought it would be appropriate to propose a new > > subclass of Leaverite called 'Meteorshite'. However thinking on this now, > all meteorshites would not necessarily be leaverites. A bedouin coming > across the wrong sort of Camel Donga (ok mixing continents here but give me > > some latitude please), might not be thinking leaverite, he might be thinking > > campfire for barbeque. > > Regards, > John > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Gilmer" <meteoritem...@gmail.com> > To: "John Hendry" <p...@pict.co.uk> > Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:09 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (this poor poor horse) > > >> Hi John and List, >> >> Good question. Let me attempt to answer. If I fail, perhaps Capt. >> Blood will chime in or another hammerhead will jump to the rescue. >> >> All hammers are falls, because if a hammer falls and nobody is around >> to notice it, it will never be discovered....and is therefore not a >> hammer or a fall. >> >> Let me put it this way - New Orleans is a recent example of an >> unwitnessed hammer that is considered a fall. When the New Orleans >> meteorite fell, penetrated the house and left a path of minor >> destruction (writing desk, etc), nobody was home. The owners were out >> and did not come home to find the cosmic damage until later. In this >> particular case, nobody directly witnessed the fall or the damage >> being done. If I recall correctly, there were no indirect witnesses >> as well - no radar track, no fireball video, no other witnesses on the >> ground. The find was determined to be a fall based on - the freshness >> of the material found, the testimony of the homeowners, and the >> obvious damage caused by this material. >> >> Met Bull states that the New Orleans meteorite is a fall, so it is >> therefore a "observed fall" or "witnessed fall" in officially-approved >> nomenclature and accepted use amongst the majority of collectors and >> dealers. Additionally, some hammerheads may refer to it as a "hammer >> fall". Also of note, New Orleans is a single stone fall, therefore >> the New Orleans meteorite is a "hammer stone" because it struck a >> house and manmade objects. >> >> Under different circumstances, the New Orleans meteorite may have gone >> unnoticed and unreported. The lower 9th Ward of New Orleans is >> desolate today, as a result of lingering damage from hurricane >> Katrina. Large stretches of homes and businesses are vacant and >> falling into disrepair. There are squatters, homeless persons, gang >> elements, and other transients that reside in the area. The same is >> true for other areas of New Orleans to varying degrees. If the stone >> had fallen in one of these houses, with no first-hand witnesses, it is >> likely to lay undiscovered and be carted off to the landfill when the >> city finally bulldozes the property. In such a case, the fall and >> damage were never noticed, it is never reported, no material is ever >> recovered, and the meteorite is never officially recognized or named. >> >> Also keep in mind, the criteria for officially approving a meteorite >> as a "fall" has changed to some degree over the years. Or could say, >> the criteria was more rigidly enforced in some publications than >> others. There are several cases of witnessed falls where the witness >> reports are several years or more removed from recovery of specimens >> on the ground. Some fall dates have uncertain dates or just a date >> range (summer of 18xx, etc). Some finds could be regarded as falls >> and there is some debate or uncertainty around the circumstances (or >> find location) that resulted in a fall classification being rejected. >> >> So, what I am getting at in a rambling fashion is this - if it is a >> hammer in the true and accepted sense, then it could be called a >> "hammer fall" or "witnessed fall" or "observed fall" or just a "fall" >> - depending on whether or not the term is being used officially or >> just casually. >> >> Best regards, >> >> MikeG >> >> PS - I think this horse is now officially pulverized beyond >> recognition. To continue this discussion line any further will >> require someone to acquire a new horse for consideration and possible >> flogging. >> >> -- >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG >> >> Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com >> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone >> Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone >> RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> On 6/14/12, John Hendry <p...@pict.co.uk> wrote: >>> Any hammer finds recorded? i.e. there's a big stone in the attic and a >>> hole >>> >>> in the roof, but nobody saw it fall. >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 7221 (20120614) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> >>> Visit the Archives at >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >> ______________________________________________ >> >> Visit the Archives at >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 7222 (20120614) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 7222 (20120614) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > ______________________________________________ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
