They are studs, welded on.
On 7/15/10 6:37 PM, "Steven Jacobs" <[email protected]> wrote: > Did you use the right bolts when connecting the torque converter to the flex > plate. If they are too long they will keep the engine from turning. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:02 PM > Subject: Miatapower Digest, Vol 29, Issue 7 > > >> Send Miatapower mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Miatapower digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? (Chad J. Douglas) >> 2. Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? (Ken Bogart) >> 3. RE: My Turn: Engine Seized? (Bill Cardell) >> 4. Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? (derf) >> 5. Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? (Chad J. Douglas) >> 6. Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? (derf) >> 7. Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? (Chad J. Douglas) >> 8. RE: My Turn: Engine Seized? (Bill Cardell) >> 9. Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? (Chad J. Douglas) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:03:09 -0400 >> From: "Chad J. Douglas" <[email protected]> >> To: "Chad J. Douglas" <[email protected]>, Stephanie Turner >> <[email protected]> >> Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>, >> "[email protected]" >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? >> Message-ID: <c863ac5d.10808%[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Crappity crap crap crap. >> >> There's nothing under the valve cover, and it's not anything to do with >> the >> cams, since I can turn the cams with a wrench until I take up the slack in >> the timing chain. And I found nothing up there. >> >> I removed the lower starter bolt and was able to loosen the upper one >> (it's >> REALLY tight in there!) and I can move the starter..it's no longer firmly >> fixed to the engine. So, I tried to make the engine turn but levering the >> teeth on the flexplate via the inspection hole.. I figure if the starter >> was >> causing the bind, and since the starter was now loose, I would be able to >> see the starter move somewhat and get a small amount of engine movement. >> >> Nope. Nothing. Still like the engine is welded. I can only assume that >> somehow the transmission/torque converter is holding the engine...and that >> this must've occurred while the engine / tranny combo was being installed >> somehow. >> >> Any ideas? Is the torque converter on the NC a lockup converter, and >> could >> the lockup be locked and somehow the transmission be locked? I'm stumped, >> and my next course of action would be to remove the engine and tranny >> combo >> again to get better access to everything, but that's a lot of labor...so >> I'm >> looking for any other ideas for things that can be done with the engine >> still in the car to free it. >> >> I even tried putting a ratchet with a cheater bar on the crank bolt and >> tried to turn it backward a little to "free" whatever was locking it, and >> only succeeded in loosening the crank bolt! So, I re-tightened the crank >> bolt using the same method. >> >> Something's got the engine held fast. >> >> >> On 7/14/10 2:09 PM, "Chad Douglas" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Well, we'll see soon enough. >>> >>> Steph--call me this evening when you get a few minutes. >>> >>> --------------------------- >>> Chad Douglas >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Jul 14, 2010, at 1:34 PM, Stephanie Turner >>> <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Starter for the MT and AT should be the same. >>>> >>>> Stephanie >>>> >>>> BEGi / Bell Engineering >>>> Phone: 830.438.2890 >>>> Fax: 830.438.8361 >>>> www.bellengineering.net >>>> >>>> Please include all previous correspondence when replying to an e-mail. >>>> Prices quoted are good for 30 days. >>>> >>>> Sign up for our Email Newsletter >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: derf [mailto:[email protected]] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 12:23 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? >>>> >>>> The starter bendix might be jammed. Is the starter the same for >>>> manual and auto cars? >>>> I'd pull the starter and plugs and see if it turns by hand. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Miatapower mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Miatapower mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Miatapower mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:06:57 -0400 >> From: Ken Bogart <[email protected]> >> To: "Chad J. Douglas" <[email protected]> >> Cc: "[email protected]" >> <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? >> Message-ID: >> <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Its got to be the transmission. Sounds like its time to pull the engine >> again... If you're still at it Tuesday, I can come over and heckle.... >> >> >> Ken >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Chad J. Douglas >> <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> Crappity crap crap crap. >>> >>> There's nothing under the valve cover, and it's not anything to do with >>> the >>> cams, since I can turn the cams with a wrench until I take up the slack >>> in >>> the timing chain. And I found nothing up there. >>> >>> I removed the lower starter bolt and was able to loosen the upper one >>> (it's >>> REALLY tight in there!) and I can move the starter..it's no longer firmly >>> fixed to the engine. So, I tried to make the engine turn but levering >>> the >>> teeth on the flexplate via the inspection hole.. I figure if the starter >>> was >>> causing the bind, and since the starter was now loose, I would be able to >>> see the starter move somewhat and get a small amount of engine movement. >>> >>> Nope. Nothing. Still like the engine is welded. I can only assume that >>> somehow the transmission/torque converter is holding the engine...and >>> that >>> this must've occurred while the engine / tranny combo was being installed >>> somehow. >>> >>> Any ideas? Is the torque converter on the NC a lockup converter, and >>> could >>> the lockup be locked and somehow the transmission be locked? I'm >>> stumped, >>> and my next course of action would be to remove the engine and tranny >>> combo >>> again to get better access to everything, but that's a lot of labor...so >>> I'm >>> looking for any other ideas for things that can be done with the engine >>> still in the car to free it. >>> >>> I even tried putting a ratchet with a cheater bar on the crank bolt and >>> tried to turn it backward a little to "free" whatever was locking it, and >>> only succeeded in loosening the crank bolt! So, I re-tightened the crank >>> bolt using the same method. >>> >>> Something's got the engine held fast. >>> >>> >>> On 7/14/10 2:09 PM, "Chad Douglas" <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Well, we'll see soon enough. >>>> >>>> Steph--call me this evening when you get a few minutes. >>>> >>>> --------------------------- >>>> Chad Douglas >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Jul 14, 2010, at 1:34 PM, Stephanie Turner < >>> [email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Starter for the MT and AT should be the same. >>>>> >>>>> Stephanie >>>>> >>>>> BEGi / Bell Engineering >>>>> Phone: 830.438.2890 >>>>> Fax: 830.438.8361 >>>>> www.bellengineering.net >>>>> >>>>> Please include all previous correspondence when replying to an e-mail. >>>>> Prices quoted are good for 30 days. >>>>> >>>>> Sign up for our Email Newsletter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: derf [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 12:23 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? >>>>> >>>>> The starter bendix might be jammed. Is the starter the same for >>>>> manual and auto cars? >>>>> I'd pull the starter and plugs and see if it turns by hand. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Miatapower mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Miatapower mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Miatapower mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Miatapower mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://list.miatapower.net/lurker/list/miatapower.html/attachments/20100714/ >> 4ef90395/attachment.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 17:12:15 -0600 >> From: "Bill Cardell" <[email protected]> >> To: "Chad J. Douglas" <[email protected]>, "Stephanie Turner" >> <[email protected]> >> Cc: [email protected], [email protected] >> Subject: RE: My Turn: Engine Seized? >> Message-ID: >> <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Hmm. How about this? Maybe you didn't get the torque converter seated >> into the trans properly, so instead of it sliding onto splines, it's >> jammed, making the tq converter stick out too much? That's my new vote. >> >> >> Bill Cardell >> TurboDog's Dad >> www.flyinmiata.com >> www.fmwestfield.com >> Sales 1-800-359-6957 >> Tech 970-464-5600 Before you call, check out >> http://www.flyinmiata.com/FAQ/ >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chad J. Douglas >> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 4:03 PM >> To: Chad J. Douglas; Stephanie Turner >> Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? >> >> Crappity crap crap crap. >> >> There's nothing under the valve cover, and it's not anything to do with >> the cams, since I can turn the cams with a wrench until I take up the >> slack in the timing chain. And I found nothing up there. >> >> I removed the lower starter bolt and was able to loosen the upper one >> (it's REALLY tight in there!) and I can move the starter..it's no longer >> firmly fixed to the engine. So, I tried to make the engine turn but >> levering the teeth on the flexplate via the inspection hole.. I figure >> if the starter was causing the bind, and since the starter was now >> loose, I would be able to see the starter move somewhat and get a small >> amount of engine movement. >> >> Nope. Nothing. Still like the engine is welded. I can only assume >> that somehow the transmission/torque converter is holding the >> engine...and that this must've occurred while the engine / tranny combo >> was being installed somehow. >> >> Any ideas? Is the torque converter on the NC a lockup converter, and >> could the lockup be locked and somehow the transmission be locked? I'm >> stumped, and my next course of action would be to remove the engine and >> tranny combo again to get better access to everything, but that's a lot >> of labor...so I'm looking for any other ideas for things that can be >> done with the engine still in the car to free it. >> >> I even tried putting a ratchet with a cheater bar on the crank bolt and >> tried to turn it backward a little to "free" whatever was locking it, >> and only succeeded in loosening the crank bolt! So, I re-tightened the >> crank bolt using the same method. >> >> Something's got the engine held fast. >> >> >> On 7/14/10 2:09 PM, "Chad Douglas" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Well, we'll see soon enough. >>> >>> Steph--call me this evening when you get a few minutes. >>> >>> --------------------------- >>> Chad Douglas >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Jul 14, 2010, at 1:34 PM, Stephanie Turner >>> <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Starter for the MT and AT should be the same. >>>> >>>> Stephanie >>>> >>>> BEGi / Bell Engineering >>>> Phone: 830.438.2890 >>>> Fax: 830.438.8361 >>>> www.bellengineering.net >>>> >>>> Please include all previous correspondence when replying to an >> e-mail. >>>> Prices quoted are good for 30 days. >>>> >>>> Sign up for our Email Newsletter >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: derf [mailto:[email protected]] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 12:23 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? >>>> >>>> The starter bendix might be jammed. Is the starter the same for >>>> manual and auto cars? >>>> I'd pull the starter and plugs and see if it turns by hand. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Miatapower mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Miatapower mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Miatapower mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Miatapower mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 17:42:07 -0600 >> From: derf <[email protected]> >> To: Bill Cardell <[email protected]> >> Cc: [email protected], [email protected] >> Subject: Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? >> Message-ID: >> <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> I think you're on to something. Aren't you supposed to bolt the >> torque converter to the flex plate AFTER the motor/trans are bolted >> together? >> >> "The motor turned over just fine by hand while I was bolting the >> torque converter to the flexplate. >> >> Then, we installed the engine, and I proceeded to hook everything up. " >> >> You can bolt the TC on first but then it is sometimes hard to line up >> the splines and or the flats on the TC with the tranny input shaft and >> trans pump. >> Does the Miata auto TC have flats that engage the trans pump like >> other cars? If so, he might have damaged his pump. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:41:18 -0400 >> From: "Chad J. Douglas" <[email protected]> >> To: derf <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? >> Message-ID: <c863df7e.1082b%[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Putting this reply back to the list so everyone interested can see: >> >> Yes. Here's the process: >> >> >> Engine and tranny are out of the car. >> I put the tq onto the input shaft of the tranny >> I mated the tranny to the engine, whilst simultaneously sliding the tq >> studs >> through the holes In the flexplate. >> I then put enough (but not all) the tranny bolts in to fully mate the >> engine >> and transmission. >> I then turned the motor over slowly to expose each tq stud so that I could >> put the nuts on. I installed all 4 nuts. I turned the engine one moer >> complete revolution to check them all. >> I then installed the starter. >> We then put the engine/tranny combo into the car. >> >> >> I did not try to turn the engine over again until the engine was fully >> installed and ready to test-fire. >> >> >> On 7/14/10 9:34 PM, "derf" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> So, it turned after the motor/tranny bolts were tightened? >>> If so you need to pull the starter all the way off. Loosening the >>> bolts might not be good enough if the bendix is stuck to the >>> flexplate. >>> >>> Something is missing. More information is needed. Did you bolt the >>> tranny to the motor and then install them together? >>> Or, did you install the tranny with the motor in place? >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:04:09 -0600 >> From: derf <[email protected]> >> To: "Chad J. Douglas" <[email protected]> >> Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? >> Message-ID: >> <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Pull the starter all the way out. See if the bendix is still attached to >> it. >> Unless something was loose in the motor or trans and it became lodged >> when you tilted to do the drop in. >> Inquiring minds want to know. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 22:13:03 -0400 >> From: "Chad J. Douglas" <[email protected]> >> To: derf <[email protected]> >> Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? >> Message-ID: <c863e6ef.10832%[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Well, I consulted AllData. >> >> I think Bill's right. The procedure calls for using a screwdriver to >> align >> the oil pump drive and I did not do that. >> >> It's possible that it's the starter, but it will be a REAL BEAR to remove >> that starter with the engine in the car without having the car on a lift. >> >> I'm doing this on jackstands. >> >> I'll be sure to report back when I do more testing. I won't know anything >> until sometime on Saturday. >> >> >> On 7/14/10 10:04 PM, "derf" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Pull the starter all the way out. See if the bendix is still attached to >>> it. >>> Unless something was loose in the motor or trans and it became lodged >>> when you tilted to do the drop in. >>> Inquiring minds want to know. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 8 >> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:53:44 -0600 >> From: "Bill Cardell" <[email protected]> >> To: "Chad J. Douglas" <[email protected]>, "derf" >> <[email protected]> >> Cc: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: My Turn: Engine Seized? >> Message-ID: >> <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Any chance it's hydrolocked? Have you had the plugs out? >> >> >> Bill Cardell >> TurboDog's Dad >> Flyin' Miata >> 1-800-359-6967 (sales) >> 970-464-5600 (tech support) >> www.flyinmiata.com >> www.fmwestfield.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chad J. Douglas >> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 8:13 PM >> To: derf >> Cc: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? >> >> Well, I consulted AllData. >> >> I think Bill's right. The procedure calls for using a screwdriver to >> align the oil pump drive and I did not do that. >> >> It's possible that it's the starter, but it will be a REAL BEAR to >> remove that starter with the engine in the car without having the car on >> a lift. >> >> I'm doing this on jackstands. >> >> I'll be sure to report back when I do more testing. I won't know >> anything until sometime on Saturday. >> >> >> On 7/14/10 10:04 PM, "derf" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Pull the starter all the way out. See if the bendix is still attached >> to it. >>> Unless something was loose in the motor or trans and it became lodged >>> when you tilted to do the drop in. >>> Inquiring minds want to know. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Miatapower mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 9 >> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:15:03 -0400 >> From: "Chad J. Douglas" <[email protected]> >> To: Bill Cardell <[email protected]>, derf <[email protected]> >> Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? >> Message-ID: <c863f577.10838%[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Yup. Plugs out. Even a hydrolocked engine will move a little. This >> engine >> will not turn one micron. It's like it's welded. >> >> >> On 7/14/10 10:53 PM, "Bill Cardell" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Any chance it's hydrolocked? Have you had the plugs out? >>> >>> >>> Bill Cardell >>> TurboDog's Dad >>> Flyin' Miata >>> 1-800-359-6967 (sales) >>> 970-464-5600 (tech support) >>> www.flyinmiata.com >>> www.fmwestfield.com >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chad J. Douglas >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 8:13 PM >>> To: derf >>> Cc: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: My Turn: Engine Seized? >>> >>> Well, I consulted AllData. >>> >>> I think Bill's right. The procedure calls for using a screwdriver to >>> align the oil pump drive and I did not do that. >>> >>> It's possible that it's the starter, but it will be a REAL BEAR to >>> remove that starter with the engine in the car without having the car on >>> a lift. >>> >>> I'm doing this on jackstands. >>> >>> I'll be sure to report back when I do more testing. I won't know >>> anything until sometime on Saturday. >>> >>> >>> On 7/14/10 10:04 PM, "derf" <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Pull the starter all the way out. See if the bendix is still attached >>> to it. >>>> Unless something was loose in the motor or trans and it became lodged >>>> when you tilted to do the drop in. >>>> Inquiring minds want to know. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Miatapower mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Miatapower mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >> >> >> End of Miatapower Digest, Vol 29, Issue 7 >> ***************************************** >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Miatapower mailing list > [email protected] > http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower _______________________________________________ Miatapower mailing list [email protected] http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
