Jim, You wrote, “Plus since one controller was working both aircraft, the American pilot probably heard that there was a helicopter in the vicinity.”
I believe this is incorrect. Each aircraft was using different frequencies to communicate with the DCA controller. I cannot understand why the controller would not have issued the helo traffic to the CRJ crew. NTSB Chair Homendy agrees. She says standard procedures required it. In the NTSB’s published report of the statement from the controller, asked about this very question, was in effect, that they did not feel it would have made a difference. -Doug Church On Fri, Aug 1, 2025 at 12:51 PM James Loos via Mifnet < mifnet@lists.mifnet.com> wrote: > In general controllers work the aircraft given them, the number is a > challenge to their skill. Each considers him/herself the best in the > business (which might be since I've been retired for a while). > > A EURONTROL fellow told me one time, that they brought some US controllers > over one time to challenge some of the European controllers. By the way > I've been watching the Heathrow operation for the last few months and they > run a very nice sequence so I don't see any difference any more. > > A couple more comments. There was no need to throw the controller under > the bus. While hindsight says it would have been good to give the American > the traffic, the helicopter said he was in sight, not unreasonable that it > was the end of the problem. Plus since one controller was working both > aircraft, the American pilot probably heard that there was a helicopter in > the vicinity. Acknowledging that there were some communication problems > that night. My last job in Headquarters was handling incidents and > accidents. I would not have said the controller was deficient. > > While we justifiably criticize American Airlines, how about our friends at > the Pentagon. It is not hard to imagine their justification for the > helicopter routes. I think the FAA tries to accommodate the military all > over the country. Heck there are ten to twenty uniformed officers walking > around the Headquarters building. When they say they really need the > fastest way to get to the White House or Congress, the FAA always tries to > make it happen. God forbid that the Joint Chiefs have to drive across the > 14th street bridge. The younger officers jog across that bridge at lunch > time. Maybe we're on to something here. > > Last, but not least, we have the Congress. Kathryn highlights their > deficiency in fixing the FAA, and that's agreed. Let us not forget that > Senator Cruz, at al, increased the allowable traffic at National by four > more flights. The more the merrier I guess. > > The number 55 an hour must be the total traffic for an hour. I once got 45 > landings on R/W 22L at JFK and I've been bragging about it for 40 years. So > I would say 55 is two runways with landings and departure and I'm way too > old to visualize how it goes on a nightly basis. I suppose it's not much > better at LGA. Both are two runway airports because we the Government and > we the industry know the acceptable risk. And that's why a few thousand > airplanes are flying around using *visual separation *as we contemplate > our aviation sins. > > That was a lot longer than I anticipated, sorry. > > Cheers > > Jim Loos > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2025 at 11:44 AM randy essell via Mifnet < > mifnet@lists.mifnet.com> wrote: > >> Surely ATC safety is the number one priority when setting the standards. >> Using 55/hour as the example, it must have been engineered by a group at >> FAA as the maximum “safe” number. Right? >> >> Randy >> >> >> On Aug 1, 2025, at 10:09 AM, Kathryn Creedy <kcre...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> After I responded I realized the entire situation begged the question -- >> didn't anyone even ask the impact on the safety of ATC? Is that even a >> question that is asked at all no matter the facility? >> >> Cheers -- Kathryn >> >> On Fri, Aug 1, 2025 at 11:03 AM randy essell <randy.ess...@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Agree 100% on checks and balances. As an airline I am going to schedule >>> to the max. If the max is 55 arrivals an hour, that’s what I’ll strive >>> for. If the FAA/ATC wants to knock that down to 50, I’ll question, but >>> I’ll schedule to 50. >>> Nobody, including the airlines, wants an unsafe operating environment. >>> >>> Randy >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Aug 1, 2025, at 9:12 AM, Kathryn Creedy via Mifnet < >>> mifnet@lists.mifnet.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I wasn't talking about ATC as capitalism. And I totally agree that "Actually >>> offering air traffic control on a fee for service basis would likely be >>> much *better* than relying on congressional appropriations to invest in >>> proper technology to support safe and efficient transportation." >>> >>> Randy, yes, you are right. Maximizing operations is, of course, what >>> everyone strives for. And, it is too easy for us to assume the worst as I >>> did. I'm just saying there needs to be checks and balances. Pollyanna. >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2025 at 9:49 AM Gary Leff via Mifnet < >>> mifnet@lists.mifnet.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Kathryn, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In the U.S., air traffic control is a government-provided function. It >>>> is literally not capitalism. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Actually offering air traffic control on a fee for service basis would >>>> likely be much *better* than relying on congressional appropriations >>>> to invest in proper technology to support safe and efficient >>>> transportation. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Gary >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Kathryn Creedy via Mifnet <mifnet@lists.mifnet.com> >>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 1, 2025 7:44 AM >>>> *To:* Doug Church <dchurc...@gmail.com> >>>> *Cc:* mifnet@lists.mifnet.com; Kathryn Creedy <kcre...@gmail.com> >>>> *Subject:* [Mifnet 🛰 73467] Re: What????!!!! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, I'm not surprised but we have our priorities upside down and I'm >>>> sick of it. Yes, that's why I said Pollyanna here. Doug, yes very tough >>>> day. But I'm not so sure that what failed wasn't ATC but the system of how >>>> we run it. Another example of deviant capitalism. Glad to see the airline >>>> cited as a contributing factor to this chaos. That's the biggest problem. >>>> Cheers -- Kathryn >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2025 at 8:34 AM Doug Church <dchurc...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Not to take away from anything Kathryn wrote - clearly the pressure to >>>> move as much traffic as possible into and out of DCA is a highly-charged >>>> and consequential issue and safety concern. Hence why the phrase from >>>> controllers - "Make It Work" - was such a flashpoint and focus of >>>> discussion in the hearing yesterday. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But in my view, here's the biggest news of the hearing yesterday, which >>>> is captured in Kathryn's linked Washington Post story's headline: >>>> >>>> >>>> Tower failed to warn plane of Black Hawk’s path before D.C. crash, FAA >>>> says >>>> >>>> It was the first acknowledgment by the Federal Aviation Administration >>>> of a possible error by the controller in the moments before the collision >>>> that claimed 67 lives. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Very tough day for all of us who love aviation, especially those of us >>>> who love air traffic control and the dedicated professionals who do that >>>> job. But nowhere near the unspeakably tough days that the families and >>>> loved ones of the victims have to endure. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -Doug Church >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2025 at 8:12 AM Kathryn Creedy via Mifnet < >>>> mifnet@lists.mifnet.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Controllers told investigators that they didn’t feel outside pressure >>>> to keep up with the pace, but FAA managers described how American Airlines >>>> — the biggest operator at the airport — designed a compressed schedule that >>>> effectively increased traffic. The approach was based on the carrier’s >>>> financial incentives, one of the managers said. An American manager >>>> testified Thursday that the airline had tried to make changes after >>>> visiting the tower. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> “No one will stop them,” Lehman said. “So, I don’t know how American >>>> has this much pull … but it’s a wink-wink that people know what’s going >>>> on.” >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Okay, pollyanna here but where are the checks and balances? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> “The real culprit was the FAA’s regulatory system at DCA, which >>>> depended on three things: absolute altitude control, clear communications >>>> and precise timing. All of which failed tragically that evening,” said Alan >>>> Diehl, an aviation safety consultant, using the three-letter airport code >>>> for National. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No, the real culprit is congress ignoring FAA's needs. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kathryn >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://wapo.st/3IXAlah >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kathryn Creedy >>>> PHONE # 321 405 4395 >>>> >>>> US-Eastern Time Zone >>>> >>>> *Twitter*: @kcreedy >>>> >>>> *Visit me on LinkedIn* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Revised: 20250507 >>>> >>>> You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. >>>> >>>> The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't >>>> exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the >>>> effort, please know that it would be greatly appreciated: >>>> https://wardell.us/url/mifbit >>>> >>>> All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies: >>>> >>>> 1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a >>>> privilege--not a right. >>>> 2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the >>>> author. >>>> 3) The tone of discussions is collegial. >>>> 4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste. >>>> 5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of >>>> other Mifnet members. >>>> >>>> * The Mifnet WEB SITE is: >>>> https://www.mifnet.com/ >>>> >>>> * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit: >>>> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >>>> OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: >>>> mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=leave >>>> <http://mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com/?subject=leave> >>>> >>>> * Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to: >>>> mifnet@lists.mifnet.com >>>> >>>> * You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at: >>>> mifnet-ow...@lists.mifnet.com >>>> >>>> * Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates >>>> all list traffic into 1-3 >>>> messages daily. See instructions at: >>>> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >>>> >>>> * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: >>>> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >>>> >>>> * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via >>>> email: >>>> mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=help >>>> <http://mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com/?subject=help> >>>> >>>> * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: >>>> https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies >>>> >>>> * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: >>>> https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems >>>> >>>> * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: >>>> https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/mifnet@lists.mifnet.com/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kathryn Creedy >>>> PHONE # 321 405 4395 >>>> >>>> US-Eastern Time Zone >>>> >>>> *Twitter*: @kcreedy >>>> >>>> *Visit me on LinkedIn* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Revised: 20250507 >>>> >>>> You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. >>>> >>>> The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't >>>> exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the >>>> effort, please know that it would be greatly appreciated: >>>> https://wardell.us/url/mifbit >>>> >>>> All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies: >>>> >>>> 1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a >>>> privilege--not a right. >>>> 2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the >>>> author. >>>> 3) The tone of discussions is collegial. >>>> 4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste. >>>> 5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of >>>> other Mifnet members. >>>> >>>> * The Mifnet WEB SITE is: >>>> https://www.mifnet.com/ >>>> >>>> * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit: >>>> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >>>> OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: >>>> mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=leave >>>> <http://mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com/?subject=leave> >>>> >>>> * Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to: >>>> mifnet@lists.mifnet.com >>>> >>>> * You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at: >>>> mifnet-ow...@lists.mifnet.com >>>> >>>> * Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates >>>> all list traffic into 1-3 >>>> messages daily. See instructions at: >>>> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >>>> >>>> * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: >>>> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >>>> >>>> * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via >>>> email: >>>> mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=help >>>> <http://mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com/?subject=help> >>>> >>>> * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: >>>> https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies >>>> >>>> * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: >>>> https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems >>>> >>>> * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: >>>> https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/mifnet@lists.mifnet.com/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Kathryn Creedy >>> PHONE # 321 405 4395 >>> US-Eastern Time Zone >>> *Twitter*: @kcreedy >>> *Visit me on LinkedIn* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Revised: 20250507 >>> >>> You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. >>> >>> The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't >>> exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the >>> effort, please know that it would be greatly appreciated: >>> https://wardell.us/url/mifbit >>> >>> All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies: >>> >>> 1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a >>> privilege--not a right. >>> 2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the >>> author. >>> 3) The tone of discussions is collegial. >>> 4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste. >>> 5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of >>> other Mifnet members. >>> >>> * The Mifnet WEB SITE is: >>> https://www.mifnet.com/ >>> >>> * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit: >>> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >>> OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: >>> mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=leave >>> <http://mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com/?subject=leave> >>> >>> * Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to: >>> mifnet@lists.mifnet.com >>> >>> * You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at: >>> mifnet-ow...@lists.mifnet.com >>> >>> * Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates >>> all list traffic into 1-3 >>> messages daily. See instructions at: >>> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >>> >>> * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: >>> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >>> >>> * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via >>> email: >>> mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=help >>> <http://mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com/?subject=help> >>> >>> * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: >>> https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies >>> >>> * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: >>> https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems >>> >>> * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: >>> https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/mifnet@lists.mifnet.com/ >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Kathryn Creedy >> PHONE # 321 405 4395 >> US-Eastern Time Zone >> *Twitter*: @kcreedy >> *Visit me on LinkedIn* >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Revised: 20250507 >> >> You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. >> >> The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't >> exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the >> effort, please know that it would be greatly appreciated: >> https://wardell.us/url/mifbit >> >> All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies: >> >> 1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a >> privilege--not a right. >> 2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the >> author. >> 3) The tone of discussions is collegial. >> 4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste. >> 5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of >> other Mifnet members. >> >> * The Mifnet WEB SITE is: >> https://www.mifnet.com/ >> >> * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit: >> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >> OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: >> mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=leave >> >> * Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to: >> mifnet@lists.mifnet.com >> >> * You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at: >> mifnet-ow...@lists.mifnet.com >> >> * Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates >> all list traffic into 1-3 >> messages daily. See instructions at: >> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >> >> * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: >> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >> >> * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via >> email: >> mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=help >> >> * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: >> https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies >> >> * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: >> https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems >> >> * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: >> https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/mifnet@lists.mifnet.com/ >> > > > -- > Cheers > > Jim Loos > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Revised: 20250507 > > You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. > > The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't > exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the > effort, please know that it would be greatly appreciated: > https://wardell.us/url/mifbit > > All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies: > > 1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a > privilege--not a right. > 2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the > author. > 3) The tone of discussions is collegial. > 4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste. > 5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of other > Mifnet members. > > * The Mifnet WEB SITE is: > https://www.mifnet.com/ > > * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit: > https://lists.mifnet.com/ > OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: > mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=leave > > * Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to: > mifnet@lists.mifnet.com > > * You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at: > mifnet-ow...@lists.mifnet.com > > * Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates all > list traffic into 1-3 > messages daily. See instructions at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/ > > * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/ > > * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: > mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=help > > * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: > https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies > > * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: > https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems > > * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/mifnet@lists.mifnet.com/ >
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