Thank you sir. Mike Borfitz Cell 206-714-8797 Kilroy Aviation LLC WWW.FAAODA.COM <http://www.faaoda.com/>
Kilroy is available for aviation regulatory and safety issues - Type & Production Certification, Continued Operational Safety - International validation & safety matters - Program & system management - FAA STC ODA On Thu, Oct 30, 2025, 2:40 AM Karl L. Swartz via Mifnet < [email protected]> wrote: > Mike, > > Thank you for the far more informed and detailed response than mine. > Excellent stuff. > > -- Karl > > On Oct 29, 2025, at 5:05 PM, Mike Borfitz via Mifnet < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Skeptic here. I'm not gonna dig too deep here, but I'm finding holes > everywhere, and some of what follows is opinion, common sense & a failing > memory. > > - I ALWAYS take a non-government report with a huge grain of salt. > It's not true until I can determine for myself that it IS true. Scrub the > damn thing, "Guilty until proven innocent." > - I was suspicious from Day 1 when I got the impression that all the > reports from India seemed to point away from even considering human > involvement. That leaves LOTS of room for "best guessing". > - A technical detail: normally a short circuit doesn't fix itself, > especially within seconds and without leaving some sort of evidence. And > (AND) a short circuit in such a critical area like ALL thrust loss would > have an effect in some other system, and it's reasonable that some > evidence, a glitch of some sort, would be found in the recorded data. I'm > wondering if the folks who put this together started with an *assumption > *that there was a short circuit. I don't know if it has been > established as a fact, all we have is an Airworthiness Directive > that requires a fix. > - Speaking of, AD 2016-14-04 is mentioned, then tells us of another > 2024 NPRM followed by an AD in 2025 AD but they don't publish the number. > That doesn't mean the AD doesn't exist, it's just a lack of thoroughness. > And I'm feeling too lazy to hunt it down. > - They write " We believe we have identified the cause of the crash..." > but it's really not clear who "we" might be. Do they have full access to > all the data? > - A few lines down from the headline they wrote "We have formed a > community of pilots, aircraft engineers and aviation experts and this > has > been a team effort." OK fine but it's still vague. > - From some quick research it looks like the switches had moved but > it's not clear to me how that happened or how it was recorded. My best > guess is that the physical switch position is recorded as opposed to some > sort of hidden electronic switching for BOTH engines. From the cockpit > position I can imagine the pilots want a switch when things happen fast and > it makes sense that the DFDR would record it. And I could be wrong so... > - How do they know THIS? I'm having trouble believing the CCR can shut > down both engines. AND it also makes sense that the engines have FADEC, not > EEC, I hit that in another bullet. > - <image.png> > - Very sorry, but THIS (screenshot below) makes no sense:. When all > engine systems are functioning properly, I can't think of any reason why > spooling down to idle can be a protective measure. HOWEVER I was on a > Boeing 757 flight test about 40 years ago when we had an overspeed on a > PW2037 that caused the FADEC to command idle, but that was an overspeed & > that can be very, very bad if not corrected. AND we were still in the > installation development stage, I don't remember the cause but it got > fixed. > - <image.png> > - THIS is absolute BS: "Each Engine Electronic Control (EEC) has > its own internal power conditioning system called a FADEC." In the > engineering world, EECs and FULL AUTHORITY digital engine controls (FADEC) > are entirely different systems. It's been a while but I can't think of any > engine having both. It was necessary in the engine world to keep their > nomenclature separate. And, > - EEC is not Engine Electronic Control, it's Electronic Engine > Control. "Back in the day" before FADEC, an EEC was what we called > "supervisory". You might call it an efficiency control to save fuel. EEC > failure caused reversion to the old style, very reliable hydromechanical > control, no biggie, just burn a bit more fuel. FADEC was the next > reasonable evolutionary step. Maybe think of EEC as a trim system. > - Little bit of credit, they tossed out some nice-sounding words & > acronyms but after digging in I say it's word salad. > > Bottom line, whether "we" (the "root cause" writers) are competent or not, > it really bugs me when a so-called authoritative report can be torn apart > so easily. Get it 100% correct, even when describing acronyms. Credibility > in these situations must be unassailable. > > Re-reading my little diatribe I guess I got spooled up a bit (like those > engines didn't have enough time to accomplish). I've been guilty of this > myself, learned a hard lesson or three, but it REALLY irks me to see > reports like this, even though they may be well meant. The investigation > continues, there's a long history of doing it properly, so let the process > do the work. > > Harumph. > > Borfitz > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 6:30 PM Karl L. Swartz via Mifnet < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> One snippet: >> >> Each Engine Electronic Control (EEC) has its own internal power >> conditioning system called a FADEC ... >> >> >> Huh, I always thought FADEC stood for Full Authority Digital Engine >> Controller—an EEC plus supporting accessories. It’s not just the support >> goo for the EEC. >> >> Errors like that always make me wonder about the veracity of the >> remainder of an article, which is not to say that the hypothesis is wrong. >> >> -- Karl >> >> On Oct 29, 2025, at 12:38 PM, Kathryn Creedy via Mifnet < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> I just read this saying it was a short circuit caused by water >> infiltration. >> >> Any comment? >> >> https://42kft.com/root-cause-of-the-air-india-ai171-crash/ >> >> Kathryn >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Kathryn Creedy >> PHONE # 321 405 4395 >> US-Eastern Time Zone >> *Visit me on LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/kbcreedy/> * >> <image007.gif> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Revised: 20250507 >> >> You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. >> >> The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't >> exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the >> effort, please know that it would be greatly appreciated: >> https://wardell.us/url/mifbit >> >> All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies: >> >> 1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a >> privilege--not a right. >> 2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the >> author. >> 3) The tone of discussions is collegial. >> 4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste. >> 5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of >> other Mifnet members. >> >> * The Mifnet WEB SITE is: >> https://www.mifnet.com/ >> >> * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit: >> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >> OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: >> [email protected]?subject=leave >> <http://[email protected]/?subject=leave> >> >> * Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to: >> [email protected] >> >> * You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at: >> [email protected] >> >> * Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates >> all list traffic into 1-3 >> messages daily. See instructions at: >> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >> >> * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: >> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >> >> * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via >> email: >> [email protected]?subject=help >> <http://[email protected]/?subject=help> >> >> * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: >> https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies >> >> * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: >> https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems >> >> * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: >> https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/ >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Revised: 20250507 >> >> You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. >> >> The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't >> exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the >> effort, please know that it would be greatly appreciated: >> https://wardell.us/url/mifbit >> >> All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies: >> >> 1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a >> privilege--not a right. >> 2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the >> author. >> 3) The tone of discussions is collegial. >> 4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste. >> 5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of >> other Mifnet members. >> >> * The Mifnet WEB SITE is: >> https://www.mifnet.com/ >> >> * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit: >> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >> OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: >> [email protected]?subject=leave >> <http://[email protected]/?subject=leave> >> >> * Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to: >> [email protected] >> >> * You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at: >> [email protected] >> >> * Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates >> all list traffic into 1-3 >> messages daily. See instructions at: >> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >> >> * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: >> https://lists.mifnet.com/ >> >> * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via >> email: >> [email protected]?subject=help >> <http://[email protected]/?subject=help> >> >> * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: >> https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies >> >> * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: >> https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems >> >> * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: >> https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/ >> > > > -- > Mike Borfitz > Cell 206-714-8797 > Kilroy Aviation LLC > WWW.FAAODA.COM <http://www.faaoda.com/> > > Kilroy is available for aviation regulatory and safety issues > - Type & Production Certification, Continued Operational Safety > - International validation & safety matters > - Program & system management > - FAA STC ODA > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Revised: 20250507 > > You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. > > The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't > exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the > effort, please know that it would be greatly appreciated: > https://wardell.us/url/mifbit > > All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies: > > 1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a > privilege--not a right. > 2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the > author. > 3) The tone of discussions is collegial. > 4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste. > 5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of other > Mifnet members. > > * The Mifnet WEB SITE is: > https://www.mifnet.com/ > > * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit: > https://lists.mifnet.com/ > OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: > [email protected]?subject=leave > > * Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to: > [email protected] > > * You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at: > [email protected] > > * Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates all > list traffic into 1-3 > messages daily. See instructions at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/ > > * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/ > > * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: > [email protected]?subject=help > > * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: > https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies > > * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: > https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems > > * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/ > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Revised: 20250507 > > You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. > > The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't > exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the > effort, please know that it would be greatly appreciated: > https://wardell.us/url/mifbit > > All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies: > > 1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a > privilege--not a right. > 2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the > author. > 3) The tone of discussions is collegial. > 4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste. > 5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of other > Mifnet members. > > * The Mifnet WEB SITE is: > https://www.mifnet.com/ > > * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit: > https://lists.mifnet.com/ > OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: > [email protected]?subject=leave > > * Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to: > [email protected] > > * You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at: > [email protected] > > * Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates all > list traffic into 1-3 > messages daily. See instructions at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/ > > * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/ > > * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: > [email protected]?subject=help > > * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: > https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies > > * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: > https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems > > * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/ >
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Revised: 20250507 You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the effort, please know that it would be greatly appreciated: https://wardell.us/url/mifbit All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies: 1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a privilege--not a right. 2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the author. 3) The tone of discussions is collegial. 4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste. 5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of other Mifnet members. * The Mifnet WEB SITE is: https://www.mifnet.com/ * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit: https://lists.mifnet.com/ OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: [email protected]?subject=leave * Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to: [email protected] * You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at: [email protected] * Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates all list traffic into 1-3 messages daily. See instructions at: https://lists.mifnet.com/ * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: https://lists.mifnet.com/ * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: [email protected]?subject=help * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/
