“Are you suggesting we should change our judicial standards to fit with the problem of combatants captured on foreign soil so we can treat them the same as other citizens? That would be a whole new kettle of fish now wouldn't it? I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant but please clarify.” – dj
I’m saying that there is absolutely no justification for imprisoning people who are NOT combatants. The last regime of the US did this. It is criminal. It is against international law to take such prisoners and ‘give’ them to other countries who are even more attracted to torture in an attempt to prove a failed and erroneous vision that Cheney had. I assume you have read a lot about rendition and approve it. I don’t. “Detainees don't have freedom of speech. Should we allow them to continue spouting their hatred for all to hear?” – dj Yes. “No, I don't think we should take everyone's right to free speech away Orn; just terrorists right. Where are all these hordes of 'innocent people' being locked up? I'm sure it's happened but I seriously doubt to the degree you apparently think it has. I think you've been swayed by the enemy's propaganda. Just as I'm sure you think I've been swayed.” – dj Don, I don’t even know where to find ‘enemy’s propaganda’. What degree of incarcerating innocent people and torturing them do you think is OK? One? Five? Twenty? Fifty? Where do you draw a line? Or do you? Also, you seem to have read some on the topic so I’m sure that you know the truism under your feelings that one person’s terrorist is but another’s freedom fighter is common knowledge and sense. Without ‘terrorists’, the USA would never have become independent from the UK. Please think a little deeper. With your last paragraph, I can see why your vision here is clouded. Rather than play shrink with you (I have been so trained.) I’ll just wish you well in your process and hope you can find a better paying job. Also, for you and your’s sake, I hope that single payer health care arrives soon. That is about the only true hope you have left. On Jun 15, 3:58 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > Perhaps it's due to my lack of adequate communication skills but you > seem to read more into my comments then what I intended to > communicate. > > > Quite a few assumptions here: > > 1. We know which judicial standards should be used. > > 2. Affording any non-citizen either the same rights as citizens or > > treat them like…. > > 3. Your frustration surely must tell you something about your own > > passion… > > 1) I meant we should keep up with the military commissions. Our > president seems to agree with me on this. Are you suggesting we > should change our judicial standards to fit with the problem of > combatants captured on foreign soil so we can treat them the same as > other citizens? That would be a whole new kettle of fish now wouldn't > it? I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant but please clarify. > > 2)Again-the answer is military commissions > > 3)You are probably correct, my passion on this subject is misplaced. > I certainly understand I won't be changing anyone's opinion. I guess > my goal is to try to make others understand my logic. I recognize I'm > not doing a very good job. > > Detainees don't have freedom of speech. Should we allow them to > continue spouting their hatred for all to hear? As it is we allow > them to meet with their religious leaders which I think is a mistake. > No, I don't think we should take everyone's right to free speech away > Orn; just terrorists right. Where are all these hordes of 'innocent > people' being locked up? I'm sure it's happened but I seriously doubt > to the degree you apparently think it has. I think you've been swayed > by the enemy's propaganda. Just as I'm sure you think I've been > swayed. > > I have some experience dealing with the violently mentally disturbed. > I've taken training specifically to subdue a person to avoid hurting > them and not letting them hurt me. You have to use reward/punish > techniques to get them to co-operate and sometimes that doesn't work. > Often drugs are the only thing that will calm someone. They act like > animals. I say that knowing the person I'm trying to help is a loved > one that wasn't always like this. Sometimes he doesn't act like a > human being and I have to stop him from hurting others or himself. > The thought of him ending up in 'the system' terrifies me. I don't > know for sure what I'm capable of but if it came down to him going to > a state run facility for the criminally insane I might seriously > consider Euthanasia. This is someone I love. If I'm taxed out of my > ability to take care of him and my insurance is changed to force me to > put him in the cess-pool that is state-run health care it may come to > that. I hope not but I see it coming closer every day. > > dj > > > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 5:10 PM, ornamentalmind<[email protected]> > wrote: > > > “…And there-in lies the problem of affording combatants the same > > rights > > as American citizens. Their guilt is not provable by our judicial > > standards. We'd just be letting them all go-or killing them quietly > > before the forms are delivered. This seems so obvious to me I get > > frustrated when I say it over and over again…” – dj > > > Quite a few assumptions here: > > 1. We know which judicial standards should be used. > > 2. Affording any non-citizen either the same rights as citizens or > > treat them like…. > > 3. Your frustration surely must tell you something about your own > > passion… > > > “By the way, my comment on treating those that act like animals as > > animals was not a blanket statement to treat all detainees as > > animals. > > Just the rabid crazies that bite, spit blood and constantly rave > > about Zionists or Western Devils or the terrorists gripe du jour. By > > treating them as animals I don't mean being cruel, I mean not > > affording them the same courtesies you would a person acting in a > > civilized manner. You'd need to keep them constantly chained and use > > behavioral modification techniques frequently used on animals and, > > incidentally, on the violent mentally handicapped.” – dj > > > Quickly deconstructing this produces amazing results. We should chain > > and use behavioral mod on the mentally ill. Being ‘civilized’ is a > > personal decision as to what is and what is not. Being NOT cruel > > produces the above results of being chained and modified. Freedom of > > speech does not apply to anyone apparently. Perhaps people on this > > list who mention Zionists or Devils, western or eastern should be > > tortured. Not liking the terrorist nation like actions found in such > > prison camps should not result in having a ‘gripe du jour’…. > > The list goes on and on and on…. > >http://www.info-cascades.info/icons/brueghel.jpg > > > On Jun 15, 2:09 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> "...People fighting our military that are not military themselves DO > > >> > NOT have the rights that are reserved for soldiers. ..." - dj > > >> > Even if one accepted the premise of such a view, it is not applicable > >> > because many of those incarcerated were neither military nor fighting > >> > our military. To know that for sure requires more attention and > >> > adjudication than has occurred. -orn > > >> And there-in lies the problem of affording combatants the same rights > >> as American citizens. Their guilt is not provable by our judicial > >> standards. We'd just be letting them all go-or killing them quietly > >> before the forms are delivered. This seems so obvious to me I get > >> frustrated when I say it over and over again. > > >> By the way, my comment on treating those that act like animals as > >> animals was not a blanket statement to treat all detainees as animals. > >> Just the rabid crazies that bite, spit blood and constantly rave > >> about Zionists or Western Devils or the terrorists gripe du jour. By > >> treating them as animals I don't mean being cruel, I mean not > >> affording them the same courtesies you would a person acting in a > >> civilized manner. You'd need to keep them constantly chained and use > >> behavioral modification techniques frequently used on animals and, > >> incidentally, on the violent mentally handicapped. > > >> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 10:06 AM, > > >> ornamentalmind<[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > "...People fighting our military that are not military themselves DO > >> > NOT have the rights that are reserved for soldiers. ..." - dj > > >> > Even if one accepted the premise of such a view, it is not applicable > >> > because many of those incarcerated were neither military nor fighting > >> > our military. To know that for sure requires more attention and > >> > adjudication than has occurred. > > >> > On Jun 14, 3:17 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> I'm aware the U.S. has suffered in world opinion. It really can't be > >> >> helped if you choose to see things in treaties or laws that simply > >> >> aren't there. Much the same thing is happening in our court system > >> >> now. We are moving away from following the law as it is written to a > >> >> more case by case study based on a perpetrators past experiences > >> >> rather then a judgment on what he did. We may even end up with a new > >> >> amendment soon. > > >> >> Prisoners of war are soldiers. They have a rank and a serial number. > >> >> They wear uniforms. Because of this affiliation with the military > >> >> they are awarded rights under the Geneva Conventions. People fighting > >> >> our military that are not military themselves DO NOT have the rights > >> >> that are reserved for soldiers. That is a the truth and not just my > >> >> opinion. If your argument is that this is wrong and we should call > >> >> everyone a pow regardless of military affiliation then that is fine. > > >> >> I'd accept it if someone wrote a 'declaration of intent' claiming to > >> >> be a soldier and posted it on the internet and kept a copy on their > >> >> person and used a red scarf or blue scarf or black scarf or whatever > >> >> tied around their left arm as a uniform. As long as it is organized > >> >> with ranks and bases I'd go along with it even if it was ad-hoc. > >> >> Fine-your a soldier; you get pow status. What these terrorists do is > >> >> hide behind civilians. Under schools and mosques building bombs that > >> >> kill civilians. Civilians are their targets as often as not. They > >> >> set their bomb off or ambush a police station wearing masks and then > >> >> go home and make BBQ. These aren't soldiers iam. These are > >> >> terrorists. It saddens me you and many other people don't see the > >> >> difference. > > >> >> dj > > >> >> On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 2:41 AM, iam deheretic<[email protected]> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > You do not need to cut me slack because I don't live there anymore.. > >> >> > I am > >> >> > just not under the sway of the republican propaganda machine. > > >> >> > and just what amm I supposed to do a google search under .. POW > >> >> > Treaty? > > >> >> > Gitmo Is A Prisoner of war camp in the eyes of the rest of the > >> >> > world.. and > >> >> > the people being held there are prisoners of war... buy all but > >> >> > bushes > >> >> > definition.. Because the weasel bush sez something different,, it is > >> >> > not > >> >> > his privilege to redefine treaties,, they are still prisoners of > >> >> > war.. they > >> >> > were combants, they were fighting on the other side of a declared war > >> >> > so > >> >> > therefore they are prisoners of war by a legally agreed treaty one > >> >> > that was > >> >> > drawn up by the USA government at the time.. > > >> >> > even an appointed president does not have the right to break a > >> >> > treaty.. and > >> >> > Gitmo breaks the POW treaty. which makes all officers in direct > >> >> > violation > >> >> > of American laws and Bush , Cheney and cronies charged wit treason > >> >> > and high > >> >> > crimes for which they are accountable for even after they left > >> >> > office. > > >> >> > On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Don > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
