UNSUBSCRIBE -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Molly Brogan Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 1:41 PM To: "Minds Eye" Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: Nomo Gitmo
Bless you, Vam. There is an enormous kindness in the patient extension into the unstable muddle of illogical fancy, like skating on broken ice or swimming in mud for the sake of a gracious connection. I wonder at the confusion in the discussion here lately. It seems so much more emotion based, we rely less on valid information and more on highly personal opinion. Maybe a reflection of the emotional state of the world at large, a reflection of the aftershocks of a global financial crisis. Does uncertainty prevent clear communication? "I know how to make it the way of the world and you are afraid of me." (slowly shaking head) Are we trapped in a desolate Bukowski poem: "If you think it's boring out there," he tells me, "you oughta be back here." so here I am propped up against my pillows again just an old guy just an old writer with a yellow notebook. On Jun 17, 2:41 am, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > Tinker, let me begin with Peace & Love for you ! > > I take exception to you post in that you have not addressed what I did > point out. > > One, that : " The direction of society includes the potential of ' > change ' within it. Feudalism is largely not evident anymore ; ask > yourself why." > > Two, that : " Rules also include the learning society has accumulated > over the millenia. And, Right does not equal Truth ! " > > > I'm really sorry that you don't understand what I'm talking about. > > That you put it off as some religious BS is totally wrong. I'm talking > > about the mechanical action of a force. > > Indeed, I do not understand this " mechanical action of a force " you > are speaking of. What is this " force ?" What is the " mechanical " > " action " of this force ? > > > If you would like to ask me questions about what I know that you do > > not know, I'll be happy to answer them :-) > > How would I know what you know, without you revealing all you know ? > How would I know what I do not know ? Please appreciate, these > difficulties are very real and massive, to say the least. > > > The 'direction' of Society is something that you would classify as > > unknown. > > No, Gruff and Molly has given me enough idea of that. Plus, I am not > exactly illiterate, if not erudite. I do read widely. > > > This is what stirs the fear in you ... > > Did you see, feel that fear within you ? If yes, may it be that the > fear is yours ? > > Or, did you sense that fear as it arose in me ? If so, by what means > did you sense it ? > > > ... to attempt to quiet me. > > On the contrary, I invite you to talk on this forum as much as you > wish or need to. Believe me, when people talk I get to know what they > know and, more importantly, what they do not know. > > > peace & Love - I know how to make it the way of the world, and you are > > afraid of me. > > See above. > > For now, I'd let my love for you be. But I do wish that Peace be upon > you ! > > :-P & I Love you. > > > > > On Jun 16, 10:08 pm, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > " The 'direction' of Society, 'rule overrules right', ... " > > > > Tinker, I have heard you bring up this ' mantra ' umpteen times, > > > especially to end an argument, if not to win it. I believe it is > > > misplaced, if not entirely. > > > > The direction of society includes the potential of ' change ' within > > > it. Feudalism is largely not evident anymore ; ask yourself why. > > > > Rules also include the learning society has accumulated over the > > > millenia. And, Right does not equal Truth ! > > > > I have nothing against the mantra per se, so long as it remains > > > yours ! > > > > Peace & Love ... don't mind this borrowing. > > > > On Jun 17, 7:29 am, Tinker <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Rules from previous circumstances applied to similar present > > > > circumstances and enforced without consideration of the differences IS > > > > 'rule overrules right'. > > > > The 'direction' of Society, 'rule overrules right', is the root of > > > > every problem in the world and can be changed :-) > > > > > peace & Love > > > > > On Jun 16, 10:02 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > "The view behind is for retrospect in the hope that it will help us > > > > > turn the right way next > > > > > time to see it right." - sd > > > > > > Yes, looking at the past is often used as a method for making > > > > > decisions in the present. The main problem with this is that the past > > > > > is not the present. > > > > > > On Jun 16, 6:02 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Very well, it's all assumptive, either way there is no telling what > > > > > > the actual outcome would be. The probability seems equal given any > > > > > > choice. The trajectory of views are many, at least 360 and in > > > > > > between but we can only see one way at a time. The view behind is > > > > > > for > > > > > > retrospect in the hope that it will help us turn the right way next > > > > > > time to see it right. I just don't see it going anywhere except > > > > > > onward like a broken record, both sides bloodied grooves. > > > > > > Credibility > > > > > > and legitimization is hindsight, a crumpled ideal that once stood > > > > > > tall. Strategy has now become fear of upsetting the enemy. When > > > > > > sending a message of intolerance becomes damaging and destructive > > > > > > to a > > > > > > cause there is dilemma and stagnation. The agreement all around is > > > > > > on > > > > > > the uncertainty of outcome and the unsureness of the forward path. > > > > > > It > > > > > > is all out of my hands and out of my reach but in view, as > > > > > > spectator I > > > > > > can only watch and wait. > > > > > > > Thanks everyone for your participation, thoughts and opinions. > > > > > > > Dona Nobis Pachem! > > > > > > > On Jun 16, 2:17 am, Justintruth <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > You asked. > > > > > > > > Your idea about "just killing" the prisoners on Gitmo would > > > > > > > undermine > > > > > > > our attempts to de-legitimize the Jihadist movement without any > > > > > > > significant compensatory benefit. The scale of the damage it would > > > > > > > cause at a critical time on the battlefield is enormous. You can > > > > > > > try > > > > > > > to distract from this all you want but what you suggest is just > > > > > > > crazy. > > > > > > > Earlier in my life I would have just let such "let's go kill um" > > > > > > > cheer > > > > > > > leading lunacy pass without comment because I thought it too > > > > > > > crazy for > > > > > > > serious people to consider. Unfortunately, given our recent > > > > > > > history, I > > > > > > > think we all need to point out such errors before they take hold. > > > > > > > I am > > > > > > > no longer convinced that we are beyond considering them seriously. > > > > > > > Ideas like yours have damaged the credibility of the United > > > > > > > States of > > > > > > > America and we must now work to rehabilitate it. Hopefully that is > > > > > > > underway now but it is not certain. > > > > > > > > I am not "preaching" nor even suggesting civility. I have indeed > > > > > > > deliberately tried to avoid it. I am simply noting the strategic > > > > > > > consequences of your proposal. Its effect in Pakistan and > > > > > > > Afganistan, > > > > > > > where we are asking soldiers to risk their own lives to protect > > > > > > > innocent life in order to discredit the fundamentalism and in > > > > > > > order to > > > > > > > turn the situation around strategically, would be very > > > > > > > destructive. > > > > > > > You take into account the effect that the consequent impact to > > > > > > > our own > > > > > > > legitimacy would have on the order of battle that they will face > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > those countries. Hundreds of thousands or even millions of > > > > > > > committed > > > > > > > Jihadists is not a good outcome. Your ideas would contribute to > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > scenario and we might then be indeed forced to kill many more of > > > > > > > "them" than "we" would like. Perhaps you trust Putin not to supply > > > > > > > shoulder armed missiles? > > > > > > > > Cheers. > > > > > > > > On Jun 15, 7:06 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I don't think you should be telling me what I should study. > > > > > > > > I'm sorry > > > > > > > > that you think I've been living in the dark. Chimpanzees? Jane > > > > > > > > Goodall? Maybe we should send the chimpanzees over to North > > > > > > > > Korea or > > > > > > > > Afghanistan and see if they can quell the festering quagmire of > > > > > > > > hostility. I'm sure Hillary or Gore can soothe their zeal for > > > > > > > > power. > > > > > > > > Most likely they would wind up in the same labor camp as Ling > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > Lee. So much for the passive approach. I have an idea, why > > > > > > > > don't we > > > > > > > > send you and the heretic over there to preach your civility. > > > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > > sorry but I have spent way too much time wiping blood off my > > > > > > > > skin for > > > > > > > > a decision coming from an air conditioned office. > > > > > > > > > On Jun 15, 3:20 pm, Justintruth <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The thread is about the psychology of war > > > > > > > > > > > concerning the line drawn between killing and caring. I > > > > > > > > > > was looking, > > > > > > > > > > still waiting, for the psychological mechanism that > > > > > > > > > > differentiates the > > > > > > > > > > enemy perspective. > > > > > > > > > > If you want to see the psychology of war take a look at > > > > > > > > > chimpanzee > > > > > > > > > behavioral studies. War is a primate instinct. So is > > > > > > > > > nurturing and > > > > > > > > > motherhood and caring for others. Unlike most species > > > > > > > > > primates "sub- > > > > > > > > > speciate" and form very different behavior patterns toward > > > > > > > > > members of > > > > > > > > > the own group and those outside it. Its a primate instinctual > > > > > > > > > pattern. > > > > > > > > > Show a picture of an Arab being killed to a group of Arabs and > > > > > > > > > Westerners and you will get different reactions. Show a > > > > > > > > > picture of a > > > > > > > > > Westerner being killed to similar groups and the reactions > > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > switch. People on average feel sympathy to those within their > > > > > > > > > group > > > > > > > > > more readily than to those outside of it. Humans sub-speciate > > > > > > > > > along > > > > > > > > > national, religious, racial and tribal and party lines. > > > > > > > > > See:http://www.janegoodall.org/jane/ > > > > > > > > > > > When I referred to the firing squad I'm eliminating the BS, > > > > > > > > > > No you are not, you are just making more of it. > > > > > > > > > > .... if we are going to engage in war then > > > > > > > > > > > let's not play silly games, let's engage and win. If we > > > > > > > > > > are not going > > > > > > > > > > to engage war then let's talk peace, utilize diplomacy and > > > > > > > > > > show by > > > > > > > > > > example that we don't have a war mentality. > > > > > > > > > > This is a classic example of the logical fallacy of the false > > > > > > > > > dilemma. > > > > > > > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dichotomy > > > > > > > > > > I don't care how well you treat these prisoners, cater to > > > > > > > > > > > their needs, throw parties for them, no one is going to > > > > > > > > > > look at us and > > > > > > > > > > say "wow > > ... > > read more » ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: This email and any attachments thereto are confidential and it may contain Information protected by intellectual Property Laws or otherwise legally privileged. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). 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