No sir. It was a satirical retort earned by Ms Brogan. "the unstable muddle of illogical fancy" - Molly
peace & Love On Jun 17, 10:01 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > Tink, you accuse Orn of subtle ad hominem, and then in the next breath, do > exactly what you complain of. Perhaps this is the kind od behaviour that led > to Orn's perception? > > > > [ Attached Message ]From:Tinker <[email protected]>To:"\"Minds Eye\"" > <[email protected]>Date:Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:19:27 -0700 > (PDT)Local:Wed, Jun 17 2009 9:19 pmSubject:[Mind's Eye] Re: Nomo Gitmo > > I sure wish I could bless somebody. I guess I need to work on my self- > righteousness :-) > I still Love you Molly. > > peace & Love > > On Jun 17, 5:40 am, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Bless you, Vam. There is an enormous kindness in the patient > > extension into the unstable muddle of illogical fancy, like skating on > > broken ice or swimming in mud for the sake of a gracious connection. > > I wonder at the confusion in the discussion here lately. It seems so > > much more emotion based, we rely less on valid information and more on > > highly personal opinion. Maybe a reflection of the emotional state of > > the world at large, a reflection of the aftershocks of a global > > financial crisis. Does uncertainty prevent clear communication? > > > "I know how to make it the way of the world and you are afraid of > > me." (slowly shaking head) Are we trapped in a desolate Bukowski > > poem: > > "If you think it's boring > > out there," he tells me, "you oughta be > > back here." > > so here I am > > propped up against my pillows > > again > > just an old guy > > just an old writer > > with a yellow > > notebook. > > > On Jun 17, 2:41 am, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Tinker, let me begin with Peace & Love for you ! > > > > I take exception to you post in that you have not addressed what I did > > > point out. > > > > One, that : " The direction of society includes the potential of ' > > > change ' within it. Feudalism is largely not evident anymore ; ask > > > yourself why." > > > > Two, that : " Rules also include the learning society has accumulated > > > over the millenia. And, Right does not equal Truth ! " > > > > > I'm really sorry that you don't understand what I'm talking about. > > > > That you put it off as some religious BS is totally wrong. I'm talking > > > > about the mechanical action of a force. > > > > Indeed, I do not understand this " mechanical action of a force " you > > > are speaking of. What is this " force ?" What is the " mechanical " > > > " action " of this force ? > > > > > If you would like to ask me questions about what I know that you do > > > > not know, I'll be happy to answer them :-) > > > > How would I know what you know, without you revealing all you know ? > > > How would I know what I do not know ? Please appreciate, these > > > difficulties are very real and massive, to say the least. > > > > > The 'direction' of Society is something that you would classify as > > > > unknown. > > > > No, Gruff and Molly has given me enough idea of that. Plus, I am not > > > exactly illiterate, if not erudite. I do read widely. > > > > > This is what stirs the fear in you ... > > > > Did you see, feel that fear within you ? If yes, may it be that the > > > fear is yours ? > > > > Or, did you sense that fear as it arose in me ? If so, by what means > > > did you sense it ? > > > > > ... to attempt to quiet me. > > > > On the contrary, I invite you to talk on this forum as much as you > > > wish or need to. Believe me, when people talk I get to know what they > > > know and, more importantly, what they do not know. > > > > > peace & Love - I know how to make it the way of the world, and you are > > > > afraid of me. > > > > See above. > > > > For now, I'd let my love for you be. But I do wish that Peace be upon > > > you ! > > > > :-P & I Love you. > > > > > On Jun 16, 10:08 pm, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > " The 'direction' of Society, 'rule overrules right', ... " > > > > > > Tinker, I have heard you bring up this ' mantra ' umpteen times, > > > > > especially to end an argument, if not to win it. I believe it is > > > > > misplaced, if not entirely. > > > > > > The direction of society includes the potential of ' change ' within > > > > > it. Feudalism is largely not evident anymore ; ask yourself why. > > > > > > Rules also include the learning society has accumulated over the > > > > > millenia. And, Right does not equal Truth ! > > > > > > I have nothing against the mantra per se, so long as it remains > > > > > yours ! > > > > > > Peace & Love ... don't mind this borrowing. > > > > > > On Jun 17, 7:29 am, Tinker <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Rules from previous circumstances applied to similar present > > > > > > circumstances and enforced without consideration of the differences > > > > > > IS > > > > > > 'rule overrules right'. > > > > > > The 'direction' of Society, 'rule overrules right', is the root of > > > > > > every problem in the world and can be changed :-) > > > > > > > peace & Love > > > > > > > On Jun 16, 10:02 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > "The view behind is for retrospect in the hope that it will help > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > turn the right way next > > > > > > > time to see it right." - sd > > > > > > > > Yes, looking at the past is often used as a method for making > > > > > > > decisions in the present. The main problem with this is that the > > > > > > > past > > > > > > > is not the present. > > > > > > > > On Jun 16, 6:02 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Very well, it's all assumptive, either way there is no telling > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > the actual outcome would be. The probability seems equal given > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > choice. The trajectory of views are many, at least 360 and in > > > > > > > > between but we can only see one way at a time. The view behind > > > > > > > > is for > > > > > > > > retrospect in the hope that it will help us turn the right way > > > > > > > > next > > > > > > > > time to see it right. I just don't see it going anywhere > > > > > > > > except > > > > > > > > onward like a broken record, both sides bloodied grooves. > > > > > > > > Credibility > > > > > > > > and legitimization is hindsight, a crumpled ideal that once > > > > > > > > stood > > > > > > > > tall. Strategy has now become fear of upsetting the enemy. > > > > > > > > When > > > > > > > > sending a message of intolerance becomes damaging and > > > > > > > > destructive to a > > > > > > > > cause there is dilemma and stagnation. The agreement all > > > > > > > > around is on > > > > > > > > the uncertainty of outcome and the unsureness of the forward > > > > > > > > path. It > > > > > > > > is all out of my hands and out of my reach but in view, as > > > > > > > > spectator I > > > > > > > > can only watch and wait. > > > > > > > > > Thanks everyone for your participation, thoughts and opinions. > > > > > > > > > Dona Nobis Pachem! > > > > > > > > > On Jun 16, 2:17 am, Justintruth <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > You asked. > > > > > > > > > > Your idea about "just killing" the prisoners on Gitmo would > > > > > > > > > undermine > > > > > > > > > our attempts to de-legitimize the Jihadist movement without > > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > significant compensatory benefit. The scale of the damage it > > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > cause at a critical time on the battlefield is enormous. You > > > > > > > > > can try > > > > > > > > > to distract from this all you want but what you suggest is > > > > > > > > > just crazy. > > > > > > > > > Earlier in my life I would have just let such "let's go kill > > > > > > > > > um" cheer > > > > > > > > > leading lunacy pass without comment because I thought it too > > > > > > > > > crazy for > > > > > > > > > serious people to consider. Unfortunately, given our recent > > > > > > > > > history, I > > > > > > > > > think we all need to point out such errors before they take > > > > > > > > > hold. I am > > > > > > > > > no longer convinced that we are beyond considering them > > > > > > > > > seriously. > > > > > > > > > Ideas like yours have damaged the credibility of the United > > > > > > > > > States of > > > > > > > > > America and we must now work to rehabilitate it. Hopefully > > > > > > > > > that is > > > > > > > > > underway now but it is not certain. > > > > > > > > > > I am not "preaching" nor even suggesting civility. I have > > > > > > > > > indeed > > > > > > > > > deliberately tried to avoid it. I am simply noting the > > > > > > > > > strategic > > > > > > > > > consequences of your proposal. Its effect in Pakistan and > > > > > > > > > Afganistan, > > > > > > > > > where we are asking soldiers to risk their own lives to > > > > > > > > > protect > > > > > > > > > innocent life in order to discredit the fundamentalism and in > > > > > > > > > order to > > > > > > > > > turn the situation around strategically, would be very > > > > > > > > > destructive. > > > > > > > > > You take into account the effect that the consequent impact > > > > > > > > > to our own > > > > > > > > > legitimacy would have on the order of battle that they will > > > > > > > > > face in > > > > > > > > > those countries. Hundreds of thousands or even millions of > > > > > > > > > committed > > > > > > > > > Jihadists is not a good outcome. Your ideas would contribute > > > > > > > > > to that > > > > > > > > > scenario and we might then be indeed forced to kill many more > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > "them" than "we" would like. Perhaps you trust Putin not to > > > > > > > > > supply > > > > > > > > > shoulder armed missiles? > > > > > > > > > > Cheers. > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 15, 7:06 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think you should be telling me what I should study. > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry > > > > > > > > > > that you think I've been living in the dark. Chimpanzees? > > > > > > > > > > Jane > > > > > > > > > > Goodall? Maybe we should send the chimpanzees over to North > > > > > > > > > > Korea or > > > > > > > > > > Afghanistan and see if they can quell the festering > > > > > > > > > > quagmire of > > > > > > > > > > hostility. I'm sure Hillary or Gore can soothe their zeal > > > > > > > > > > for power. > > > > > > > > > > Most likely they would wind up in the same labor camp as > > > > > > > > > > Ling and > > > > > > > > > > Lee. So much for the passive approach. I have an idea, why > > > > > > > > > > don't we > > > > > > > > > > send you and the heretic over there to preach your > > > > > > > > > > civility. I'm > > > > > > > > > > sorry but I have spent way too much time wiping blood off > > > > > > > > > > my skin for > > > > > > > > > > a decision coming from an air conditioned office. > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 15, 3:20 pm, Justintruth <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > The thread is about the psychology of war > > > > > > > > > > > > > concerning the line drawn between killing and caring. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was looking, > > > > > > > > > > > > still waiting, for the psychological mechanism that > > > > > > > > > > > > differentiates the > > > > > > > > > > > > enemy perspective. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want to see the psychology of war take a look at > > > > > > > > > > > chimpanzee > > > > > > > > > > > behavioral studies. War is a primate instinct. So is > > > > > > > > > > > nurturing and > > > > > > > > > > > motherhood and caring for others. 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