Blah blah blah my feelers are hurt. Do I need to mail you some maxi
pads?
On Sun, Jan 06, 2008 at 12:56:08AM +0000, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 12:34:45PM -0600, Gilles Chehade wrote:
> > > > According to YOU, it is okay to have emacs and gcc run on a proprietary
> > > > system as it allows more people to run free software. How is it that it
> > > > is wrong to allow more people to run a free system by giving them links
> > > > to proprietary software if it encourages them to keep their free system
> > > > instead of switching to a proprietary one ?
> > >
> > > 1) ftp://ftp.openbsd.org/ isn't "links"
> > ftp://ftp.openbsd.org/ only contains software that can legally
> > be redistributed, not to mention that it is a repository for
> > software that a user *explicitely* installs, not something that
> > is part of the OS.
>
> Yes. But even if it's legally redistributable, the question remains
> wether it's free software or not.
>
> Fortunately OpenBSD is Free Software. Unfortunately it recommends and
> distributes proprietary software on it's servers (and it wasn't because
> some user wrote some text on a wiki page).
>
> > > 2) using more free software is better than not running it at all
> > > 3) incentivating usage of non-free software on free software operating
> > > systems doesn't incentivate the creation of free software replacements
> >
> > this is a word play. I know people who used OpenBSD for a while
> > and stopped using it because a proprietary application they
> > depended on was not available; and i know people who would use
> > Linux/OpenBSD/whatever if emacs/gcc were not available and made
> > so easy to use on Windows, because gcc is centric to their
> > business and emacs integrates it so well.
>
> Now THIS is wordplay and pure speculation.
> If GCC wasn't available or made so easy to use, they'd merely use another
> one. The reason they don't use a Free Software operating system as nothing
> to do with the availability of GCC.
>
> Mostly its some stupid reason like managemente dictates usage of tool X
> which only works on Windows, for instance.
>
> > If the proprietary application was available, the lost openbsd
> > users would be using *far more* free applications than the ones
> > that are currently using emacs/gcc on Windows.
>
> Only if they were using it like those sissy pseudo-fans of Free Software
> which changed to Apple MacOS X just because it's "unix" (erms...) and
> pretty, and works and has the apps.
>
> That is: they'd use it without any soul.
>
> > > 4) FYI I think the wine project is counter-productive as it enables
> > > running non-free software on free software operating systems, and as
> > > such de-incentivates the creation of replacements.
> > > 4.1) but it's free software and its authors have their own independence.
> >
> > I don't follow the wine project and I don't know how well it works,
> > but getting Windows applications to run under a free system looks
> > very productive to me. It means that I can remove Windows from my
> > workstation without preventing my girlfriend from doing her work
> > or changing her habits. And as a strange side-effect, she would be
> > using a free system and many other free utilities.
>
> There needs to be "soul" into the decision, or else it's just like
> choosing clothing. Does she use OpenBSD because she wants to use a Free
> Software operating system? If so, what have you done to help her get rid
> of her dependency on proprietary software?
>
> Will she keep using it if (let's hope not) you ever break up?
>
> > > > By providing emacs and gcc for windows you encourage people to run just
> > > > a few free applications with proprietary system and (many) tools, while
> > > > we just give people the freedom to install a proprietary application on
> > > > top of a free system with free tools.
> > >
> > > Look, OpenBSD is aggressive enough that people who "need" such non-free
> > > software likely won't even run it on OpenBSD, so what you're saying is
> > > that to the convenience of a few people who don't care for freedom of
> > > all users, you distribute non-free software.
> >
> > I have not said such a thing and you are playing words again to prove
> > some point. If an OpenBSD user needs a package for work and does not
> > find it, he will switch to another system because he needs his work done.
>
> Maybe for the desktop case, but then you have a whole sleuth of problems
> which users have a harder time dealing with than some software (like
> hardware support which in part because of NDA development *puah*
> supports a few more hardware).
>
> > The packages in our ftp are packages we are legally allowed to distribute
> > and are not part of the system. Users need to explicitely install them if
> > they want so.
> >
> > Now, please, I suggest you get familiar with the goals and policy pages
> > because you tend to mix OpenBSD goals with the ones from the FSF.
>
> Nopes, for what I read they're mostly the same, and these clear cut
> proprietary cases are hysterically extreme points of view.
>
> > > > > Anyways, most of your emails have been so rude that in afterthought I
> > > > > shouldn't even "honour" you with a reply.
> > > >
> > > > I try hard to keep my emails insult-free, saying that they are rude for
> > > > helping you avoid embarassing questions is what makes you a troll. Just
> > > > like your friend Stallman, you play on words and act like a victim if a
> > > > person points at the flaws in your reasonning, grow up.
> > >
> > > No, I am a victim and your (generically, not specifically you) attitude
> > > actually makes my relation with OpenBSD very frustrating.
> >
> > It saddens me, but your (that's you and mr Stallman) attitude is very
> > irritating. I would suggest, for the benefit of all, that you both leave
> > as it would lessen your frustration and my irritation ...
>
> All I can speak for, is for myself: if I use OpenBSD because I like its
> feature set, and if I deploy it as I can... that's the kind of user you
> want to go away? I'd say you're better off cancelling the project, if it
> depended on you.
>
> Rui
>
> --
> Umlaut Zebra |ber alles!
> Today is Setting Orange, the 5th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3174
> Celebrate Mungday
> + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
> + Whatever you do will be insignificant,
> | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
> + So let's do it...?
