Great analogy Howard. I had never thought of the balance issue quite
like your 2 X 4 and lead bar version....I like it. I will remember that
when explaining these points of life to folks that just don't 'get'
sailboats.
I would like to also add a comment to your comment....quote:
"In my view, once you are up to hull speed....much over 5.5
knots.....and heeling much over 20 degrees, it's time to reef......and
keep reefing to stay under control. If need be, upwind, ditch the jib.
Downwind, the main. I've done 2 plus knots downwind under bare poles.
The storm jib alone would have had me up to 5 knots easy. I'm not
talking slow.....fast is fun.....what I'm suggesting is fast and under
control. "
I often do exactly the same thing....take down the jib when over powered
to windward...or dowse the main for a headsail only off the wind. But,
the point I would like to make is that this configuration can be a tad
unsafe, in a roundaboutway. Meaning a headsail alone. I am mentioning
this only for the novice sailors as additional input and an offer of
additional options.
Reason being that if you needed full maneuverability in some sort of
unplanned scenario, you would not have full maneuverability under
headsail alone. Up to a beam reach....or at best a close reach without a
main is about all that could be done. What if there was a man overboard
when set up this way? Being able to round up, haul in the sheets and
tack your way back up hill becomes something you would want to be able
to do easily and quickly.....without having to bend on the
headsail....or even just hoist it, then reef the main to balance
everything out to be able to start heading back up. Too much time.
As I said before, I sometimes do this very thing myself because it is
just easier plus more relaxing to zip downhill with just a headsail.
Specially in a heavy weather. But a balanced configuration of reefed
main and reduced headsail is 'better'..... or at least what I have been
taught is better by folks that have worlds more experience than I will
ever have.
Just as a case in point. I am a great admirer of AC (Charles) Stock.
He has, in a span of about 35 years, sailed his 16' 6" wood gaff rigged
cutter 60,000 miles (sixty thousand miles) mostly all within the Thames
Estuary.
I have a favourite image of Charles and his boat Shoal Waters sailing
across a crowded Harbor on a very windy day. He has a classic 'balanced'
sail plan for the conditions. Storm stay'sl and Tri'sl. Note the main is
furled and the boom in it's crutch, the stay'sl has twin sheets and is
loose footed. I have read quotes from folks who have watched Charles
sailing in conditions like this and comment at how relaxed and
unaffected he appears. Usually with a mug of tea nearby......
(In the case of an M17 a small jib and double reefed main is a great set
in hi pressure I have found)
The photo is from his book, Sailing Just For Fun. I took a photo of the
photo and popped it up to my server. Here is the link:
http://www.timtone.com/tt/ttphotos/images/ShoalWatersWellReefed.jpg
Cheers, Tim D
Howard Audsley wrote:
Figured someone with more knowledge than I do would address this, but
I'll offer a few comments.
Imagine a foot long piece of 2 x 4. Imagine a pound or two of lead
weight, roughly the shape of a big fat cigar. The weight can be
attached on the flat side in the middle, or on the edge. If on the
flat, you have a piece of wood, which compared to the edge weighted
board, will float the lead shallower. If you attached a rod to the
other side of the board to resemble a mast sticking up, you could push
on that mast, but in a short distance, encounter a lot of resistance.
That is the form stability of the flat sided object. At about 10 to 15
degrees, you are going to have to push pretty hard to get it to move.
But past maybe 45 to 50 degrees, it will get easier. Beyond that, much
easier to lay on it's side (a 90 degree knockdown). Depending on how
much weight you added, if you release the "mast" it may right itself.
Without the weight, probably not.
By comparison, add the weight to the edge, and the mast to the other
edge and it will be easy to push the mast over to about 20 degrees or
more, upon which it will start to stiffen up.....a lot. The farther
you push, the harder it gets to push. Releasing the mast at 90 degrees
and it will pop back up in a hurry. This option doesn't have much form
stability, but does have a greater ultimate stability.....and deeper
draft.
The first option represents a boat like our keel weighted, shoal draft
Monty's. The second, more of a full keel boat like a Triton.
In my opinoin, If you go out in a blow in a Monty and you are heeled
over 30 degrees or more, you are pushing it. She will be pinned down
and trying hard to right herself....probably sailing slower and
putting you at risk of a knockdown if she stops to round up, then is
hit with a gust. I've done it and it's no faster....slower
actually.....than a double reefed main with storm jib, sailing at 15
degrees heel or less. On her feet and moving, with low center of
effort. With much less strain on the rigging and crew.
I've also been out on the other style of boat, pinned on her ear and
washing the windows.....actually standing on the side of the cockpit
seat backs or cabin sides. At some point, the wind just pins her down
and she stops.......Interesting, but not that much fun.....not to
mention all the crap flying around down below that has to be put back
where it came from.
Anecdotal evidence suggests the Monty's will right themselves if
knocked down, but if I was not a good swimmer, or the water was cold,
or my sweetie was along and I didn't want to risk having her never
speak to me again, I'd not want to find out. If she goes over, with
you in the cockpit, expect to go overboard....if she pops back up with
sheets made off fast....expect her to move off into the distance
faster than you can swim to catch her. None of that sounds good to me.
In my view, once you are up to hull speed....much over 5.5
knots.....and heeling much over 20 degrees, it's time to reef......and
keep reefing to stay under control. If need be, upwind, ditch the jib.
Downwind, the main. I've done 2 plus knots downwind under bare poles.
The storm jib alone would have had me up to 5 knots easy. I'm not
talking slow.....fast is fun.....what I'm suggesting is fast and under
control.
Second part: my sister and hubby went to the BVI's last year for their
30th anniversary. 32 foot benny toe. They absolutely loved it. I'd go
in a heartbeat.
I also agree with what has been said about taking reluctant crew. They
are just passengers along for the ride...with no duties or
responsibilities. If they offer to help....allow it, but make no
demands or offer nothing but praise....no matter what. Even that may
not help if they are hot, sick, sticky and cramped into a tiny space.
For some......it's just not their thing.
Howard
M17, #278
On Apr 12, 2007, at 7:50 AM, Jeff Royce wrote:
Good timing on this subject... i was just going to write about it
myself. My fiance and i just went out a couple days ago in a pretty
good blow. Our Monty 17 was healing at up to 30deg and we found that
"exhilarating" to say the least. How much more could it take? Should
we be more fearful than we were at 30deg? Does she tend to "dig in"
at that angle (she seemed to)?
Also, our GPS clocked us at around 6.3mph... is that typical? Slow?
I need to tune her up. She needs a new jib and some stay/shroud
replacements (especially the backstay... Jerry, an order is coming
your way soon).
Neither of us swim all too well and we did have our PFD's on... it
was a great day... fortunately Tina is a bit of a thrill seeker. I am
blessed.
Jeff
Monty 17
#336
W David Scobie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
i've never chartered in warmer waters (puget sound sailer), but
i'll just toss out comments/observations that i believe relate to
your situation:
if 15deg heal 'freaks' your wife i encourage you to look for a boat
that is known for stiffness and performs well at low levels of heal.
i've not been on a Beneteau (only on land at a boat show, never in
the water), but i know one will sail better than my families old
cheoy lee 32' (a boat that got cranky if the heal was above 15deg
because of her large beams (a '79 'fatty', not the narrower 50s and
60s models). the family boat would balance herself if the on a reach
or to the wind if the sails were correct for the wind (like 'spray').
over drive the boat and she slowed down, pounded the sea, and got a
case of nasty weather helm.
a boat underpowered in any sea is going to roll and pitch much more
than 15deg. i've taken many a 'stinkpotter' that commented the
sailboat was 'smoother' and more sea friendly than any motorboat (as
they tend to rock and roll like a cork in any sea).
now a montgomery likes to be over a bit (i'd say +/- a few deg. off
20deg). easy to get leaning, but stays put once over into the 'sweet
spot.' (i'm sure my comment about a M's best angle of heal for
performance with start another long discussion.)
well, here are my thoughts, don't know if they are of any assistance.
good luck.
dave scobie
M15 #288 (not yet named)
brian gilbert wrote:
Hi folks:
Here's the situation... I've finally gotten my wife to agree to a
bareboat
charter in the spring of next year, after our 12-year-old gets off for
summer vacation.
In general, she doesn't much care for sailboats. She'll indulge me for a
quick afternoon on the Monty, IF the wind is blowing (but not too
much...
she gets very nervous past 15 degrees of heel) and we don't stay out too
long.
But I was a liveaboard sailor, and if I could talk her into it, I'd buy
another large boat for some extended cruising. Karen's never overnighted
aboard... my M17 is WAY too small for her. A charter, if everything goes
right, is my big chance to get her hooked on the better parts of the
sailing
lifestyle.
I was thinking of the Moorings in the BVI on about a 32 foot Beneteau or
similar. I hear that's like deer hunting using a baited field... the
Virgins
are so pretty and the sailing is short and easy, or so I've heard. I've
never chartered a boat before, though, so I need recommendations and
advice
from any of you who have. Any problems to avoid, things you wish you'd
brought, or unexpected surprises?
If everything goes just right, I know she'll fall in love with sailing a
larger boat. If everything goes just WRONG, as it sometimes can... well,
I'll probably never get her on a boat again. Your thoughts will be
appreciated.
Thanks
Brian Gilbert
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