Robbin- I can't see where mast rake could have any effect on your problem. Mast bending could have a big effect (On a masthead rig like the 17, loading up the backstay doesn't bend the mast, it just puts more tension on the headstay. That would effect the shape of the jib but not the main) on your batten problem but that won't happen with the 17 w/o a baby stay or fore-and-aft lowers. I'm guessing that you have a sail problem or a too-stiff batten problem.
The draft in a sail is done in two different ways; luff curve, which is simply a convex curve in the luff of the sail while on the table, and seam taper which is in the seams between panels of the sail. I don't claim to know what I'm talking about but I think maybe if the seam taper is carried too far aft that the excess material there could cause a fold along the forward ends of the battens. First thing I'd do would be to get some softer battens (or taper the ones you have) and if that doesn't help, call the saialmaker again. If he brings up the mast rake thing, remind him that it's a masthead rig with single lowers, and if he doesn't understand the significance of that then he needs to understand things better! You want a new sail or your money back. Go to Harry Pattison or Kern Ferguson in Newport Beach and you won't have the problem. Actually, most sailmakers surviving today are very good and know 100 times more about sails than me. Luff tension would have a small effect on that fold, but not much unless it's in a real blow. If you give the sail just enough tension to pull the wrinkles out, you shouldn't have the folds. Jerry jerrymontgomery.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "robbin roddewig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 7:11 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Level Reference > Jerry, > I probably did not describe this very accurately. But what it says in > my book, Colgate's basic sailing theory, is that adjusting the backstay > properly would free the Leech of the sail which they show as hooking to > weather. Essentially the picture is a nice foil shape on the sail until > right in front of the battens where it hooks to the weather side > destroying the shape. There is a sharp discontinuity or angle in the > sail shape right in front of the battern area or a line as you say. > This is exactly what I was seeing with my new main. The back one fifth > of the sail is at an angle to the rest of the sail. There is a line or > fold in the sail right in front of the battens so the battens/Leech form > what looks like an angle of 30 or 45 degrees to the rest of the sail. > The sail manufacturer suggested working with the down haul to try and > correct this which I have not tried yet. I was going to get the rake > set and see if that fixed things. > According to the picture in the book shortening the distance between the > top of the mast and the end of the boom (by adjusting the backstay) will > help free the leech or correct this. Now that I look at it though, I am > not sure that the mast rake will effect this much since the backstay > adjustment they show is bending the mast and I was working on getting > the proper rake which is only the angle of the mast not bending it > right? What it looked like is that previously the stays had the mast > vertical with the halyard/plumb bob falling right next to the mast. The > new stay lengths have the halyard about 12" back from the mast base > which was what was advised for proper mast rake on the list here. > I am a bit perplexed since I am not very knowledgeable on sails and sail > tuning nor tuning the rig. I certainly appreciate any suggestions that > would help clear this up. > > Thanks, > Robbin > > jerry wrote: > > Hi Robbin- I don't understand your comment about the main hooking to weather > > in a line at the fron of the battens. Could you elaborate on thaat? > > Usually a haard line along the front of the battens comes from the battens > > being too stiff, or a poorly cut/worn out main, and usually it's the ends of > > the battens, at the leach, that hook to weather. > > > > I foot of rake on the mast doesn't seems too excessive to me, but the > > definative thing is that the weather helm should be just right. > > > > Jerry > > jerrymontgomery.org > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "robbin roddewig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > > <[email protected]> > > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 6:31 AM > > Subject: Re: M_Boats: Level Reference > > > > > > > >> Thanks Jerry, > >> made the trip to the marina yesterday and with the longer forestay you > >> produced the mast was raked about 12" back! Much different position > >> than previously where is was straight up if not a bit raked forward. > >> To get the cockpit benches level I had to remove the 7.5hp outboard > >> (glad that thing stays in place all year) and stood forward in the > >> cockpit. The backstay is being shortened at Annapolis rigging so the > >> rig should be in a much better state for the next sail. > >> I have a new main but it was hooking to windward fairly severely along a > >> line at the front of the battens. My sailing book said this would > >> happen if the mast if too far forward so I am hoping this solves the > >> issue with the main. Anyone have any experience with this they could > >> > > offer? > > > >> Thanks > >> Robbin > >> > >> jerry wrote: > >> > >>> Robbin- the boat will float bow down with nobody in the cockpit. > >>> Theoretically the seats should be level with a couple of people fwd in > >>> > > the > > > >>> cockpit. > >>> > >>> Jerry > >>> jerrymontgomery.org > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "robbin roddewig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > >>> <[email protected]> > >>> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:34 AM > >>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Level Reference > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Tim, > >>>> I also have new standing rigging which is not right and have to have a > >>>> new backstay made (old rigging was lost when the new stuff was made), > >>>> > > so > > > >>>> I need to measure with the mast raked correctly. I am going to use the > >>>> halyard with the boat floating and me not on it to get the correct mast > >>>> position. I cannot think of another way to do it. I will try and see > >>>> if the benches or cockpit floor register level with the boat floating. > >>>> Then if they are they could be used as a reference on the trailer. > >>>> > >>>> Robbin > >>>> > >>>> Tim Diebert wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Right....sorry......I actually was wondering if the cockpit sole...the > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> berth > >>> > >>> > >>>>> decks ....the cockpit benches....or whatever is a level reference. > >>>>> That way I can easily level the boat fore and aft on the trailer and > >>>>> > > try > > > >>> and > >>> > >>> > >>>>> have a reference starting point for mast rake. Rather than using a > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> painted > >>> > >>> > >>>>> on water line that has been tweaked by PO's. > >>>>> I have new standing rig on the boat and am playing with rake. I reckon > >>>>> > > I > > > >>>>> have it too far right now but would like to try the recommended point. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> If > >>> > >>> > >>>>> the boat is not level....using the halyard method isn't going to work. > >>>>> Unless I am missing something.....then that would make an even dozen > >>>>> > > for > > > >>>>> today. > >>>>> Tim > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > >>>>> > > Tom > > > >>>>> Jenkins > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 8:38 AM > >>>>> To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' > >>>>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Level Reference > >>>>> > >>>>> Tim, > >>>>> I don't know what has been said by others, but you might borrow one of > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> those > >>> > >>> > >>>>> inexpensive infrared thermometers and find where the temp changes on > >>>>> > > the > > > >>>>> hull. I do it to find the level of heating oil in my tank, but have > >>>>> > > not > > > >>>>> tried it myself on less conductive fiberglass. > >>>>> > >>>>> Tom Jenkins > >>>>> M17 Scintilla > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > >>>>> > > Tim > > > >>>>> Diebert > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:29 AM > >>>>> To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' > >>>>> Subject: M_Boats: Level Reference > >>>>> > >>>>> I know it was asked but did not see a reply. > >>>>> Is there an area of the 17 hull that is a known level reference > >>>>> > > relative > > > >>> to > >>> > >>> > >>>>> water line? > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't always read all the emails......so if anyone got this one some > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> help > >>> > >>> > >>>>> would be grand. > >>>>> > >>>>> Tim and PUFF > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. > >>>> Checked by AVG. > >>>> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: > >>>> > > 6/18/2008 > > > >>> 7:09 AM > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >> > >> > >> -- > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG. > >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1512 - Release Date: 6/21/2008 > >> > > 9:27 AM > > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1512 - Release Date: 6/21/2008 9:27 AM > > _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
