Rich,
We seem to be remembering the circumstances differently. You seem to
think people on MOPO started "dumping" on it without checking with the
seller first. As I recall, the seller was contacted first but didn't
provide anything in the way of viable assurance about authenticity. I
didn't participate in that question-the-Creature discussion (at least I
don't think I did and I'm not inclined to search the archives to make
sure), but as I recall,after Diane came out and confirmed that she had
backed it and felt it was authentic, that was pretty much the end of the
discussion. So, I don't really see why you're steamed up about it now,
at this late date. I don't recall you objecting to the discussion at the
time it was taking place.
As for the asking price, again, we seem to be remembering things
differently. Heritage just sold the exact same poster last week "very
fine minus on linen" for $10,755 -- nowhere near the $15 K being asked
for the other one (and I thought the last asking price was $18 K, but
whatever, I really wasn't all that interested at the time). The point
is, the price was obviously too high, since Heritage sold the same
poster for over $4 K less within the same week or so. See:
http://movieposters.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=7014&Lot_No=89274
Going back to March 18 2006, Heritage sold another for $10,925. And yet
another on March 5 for $10,637. Check their archives. Since we all agree
Heritage auctions tend to set the high retail prices, it seems like the
market has been saying for some time that this poster fine on linen is
worth around $11 K, maybe as much as $13 K in the right condition and
bidding-war circumstances. Yes, there are also a couple there which went
for around $13 K... and one stand-out aberration that went for $25 K
(must be the same phenom that caused someone to bid a PULP FICTION from
Bruce up to $580 this week... madness does sometimes set in on a
particular auction).
I think the fact that, along with the extremely high starting price,
Heritage advertising an identical auction at the same time had more to
do with the other Creature not selling than anything else. Calling it a
"victim" doesn't work for me -- unless you're saying the seller was the
victim of his own greed by setting the opening bid to high. We both know
that's not the way to attract bidder interest. I think last week's
Heritage Creature started out around $6 K or so.
But, as you say, there is no way of knowing what a particular poster
will go for at auction, we can only go by past recent sales as a general
guideline, but what happens when the final bidding starts is totally
unpredictable.
No, of course I'm not saying that if you somehow "find a Frankenstein
one-sheet and pay $25k for it that I'm only allowed to ask $50k two
weeks later" -- and you know I'm not. Ken's situation is totally
different from that. He did not "find" the Metropolis poster, did he? I
wasn't paying attention at the time, but didn't he win it in a
well-publicized auction, beating out all other bidders and thus
establishing the record-high price for that particular poster in 2005?
Surely anyone else who wanted that poster and had the means to buy it
was there bidding against Ken in 2005. So, unless some new millionaires
have entered movie poster collecting in the last 4 years, the others
weren't interested in paying more than $700 K for it 4 years ago and,
given the kind of economy we've had since then, there is no logical
reason to suppose they or anyone else would be paying to pay a whole
more now, a mere 4 years later. Maybe a bit more, but certainly not $1.3
million more. Sure, anything *can* happen, but the expectation is not
reasonable. It's wishful thinking.
The thing is, you still haven't explained why you think I was "dumping"
on Ken or the poster. I was just offering my perfectly valid opinion
that asking $2 million for it was way too high. People are entitled to
their own opinions, Rich. And that's mine. Not sure why you're attacking
me about it, or for staying so in public since the auction was public,
but since I've explained my reasons for holding such an opinion twice
now and I'm done with this particular discussion.
-- JR
Richard Halegua Comic Art wrote:
JR
Creature first: that poster was a victim. whether it affected the sale
or not is questionable. Yes at one point it was $21k. Later it was
$15k.. right in line with a natural price for the item. After that
poster did not sell, 2 other copies did sell above the $15k that he
was asking.
But the problem is this, not that the poster was spoken about - but
that it was totally shit on.
As I said, there are ways to comment intelligently, but the posts on
that item from a couple members in particular was disastrous.
Yes, it is up to knowledgeable people to bring forth this issues, but
it can be done in an informed and classy manner. The comments on the
item were not done so.
It was shit on first, and then did the questions go to the seller. Why
couldn't the members who shit on it first have asked questions first??
There is something called "presumed innocent until proven guilty" but
the attacks on that poster were in the reverse of that. That is just
wrong.
You can disagree without being disagreeable is the point.
Concerning your comments on Metropolis, Ken can defend himself just
fine. He's a smart guy. But my point was that you were shitting on his
poster's price, not that you commented about the poster
for the record, Ken bought the poster in 2005, not a couple years ago.
He saved for months as he sold posters to complete the deal.
Pricing such a poster is not a standard formula. It has nothing in
common with Goldfinger 1 sheets for instance in that regard. We all
know what Goldfinger posters sell for on average, so it's easy to
comment that someone is asking too much when he prices it at $5000.
It's easy to price This Gun For Hire, or Wizard of Oz.. these posters
- while not exactly common - do come to market often enough to price
correctly. Metropolis, Dracula, Bride of Frankenstein etc cannot be
priced in such a manner. These are posters that reside in a no-mans
land. The Metropolis 3sh is (I believe) only one of two (or is it 3?)
copies known or rumored to be in private hands. All other copies are
in institutional hands. Institutional collections do not sell (in
general), so it's possible that never again will a copy of this poster
be available for sale. So in pricing... the sky's the limit.
Another thing: you seem to indicate that whatever Ken's asking price
is should bear some relation to his cost or time held.. Why??
Does that mean if I find a Frankenstein one-sheet and pay $25k for it
that I'm only allowed to ask $50k two weeks later?? That's ridiculous.
Posters of this nature do not have any basis for pricing beyond "what
the owner wants, if you want to buy it".
If the person(s) who has a billion $$ is the presumed market, does it
matter if it's $700k, $1mil or $5mil??
Similarly, if the person(s) who don't think the poster is worth $2mil
could afford it if it was $50k, does that matter??
What I think the poster is worth is irrelevant because I am not a
potential buyer.
Todd's Black Cat poster (not Dracula JR) sold for less in the auction
that the winning bidder's top bid proxy. So Todd got short-changed in
a way as he knows the buyer, though he may not have known what his
ceiling price may have been if they did a deal together outside of
Heritage. Posters of this nature have no "standard rule". _It's what
the market will bear
_furthermore, the only real consideration Ken would need to give it is
"do I need the cash today right now immediately and so what price can
I achieve right this moment?" or "I could care less if I sell the
poster unless I can really kick ass and make a real change in my
life". I suggest Ken is in the latter of the two groups
To the people who make the comments on values, forgeries etc.. there
are ways to comment without "tainting" someone's property, certainly
JR's comments could not taint a Metropolis 3sh, but I have no doubt
that the CFTBL comments did taint that poster in some way because they
created an atmosphere of worry around the item.. There is no
justification for that, especially if the people who created that
atmosphere could have gotten the information first on the poster's
authenticity (which they did not) and been able to post INFORMED DATA.
one more point. People like to say :if you want to find the real
price, auction it"
this is not really correct.. Auction prices on most items (above 90%+)
are below market prices in general. That's why so many dealers buy
merchandise at auction. Dave's price on the YOLT subway poster may be
on the high side, but the $700+ it sold for on ebay is very low. There
is a difference between "auction price" and "retail price" and also as
we know, you can buy chocolate at Wal Mart or on Rodeo Drive. On Rodeo
Drive the price can be multiples of what you pay at Wal Mart, but
who's to say that Rodeo Drive has the wrong price?? the easy
answer...... the person who buys it.
Rich
At 11:32 AM 11/22/2009, James Richard wrote:
Aw, Rich, c'mon... that Creature poster didn't sell because the
asking price was too high is all... as you said about the Metropolis
offering, anyone on this list interested in buying that poster would
have seen Diane's statement about it here and felt confident in
purchasing it -- had the price been reasonable. Just my partial
answer to your question, since I don't believe I ever posted a
comment on that particular Creature thread and so don't have a dog in
that hunt.
I would point out that at the time the Creature thread started, we
were in the midst of the breaking stories on the Universal Horror
fakes and a fake linen backed Creature had just been recently
identified. It was perfectly reasonable at the time for people to
wonder about the authenticity of this or any other higher-priced
linen backed poster. Knowing what we now know (and most us still
don't know the whole story or the massive extent of this situation) I
think *everyone* should question the authenticity of *any*
higher-priced linen backed poster at this point -- and hold off
purchasing until some kind of provenance or third-party information
can be presented with it (as with Diane's statement on this one).
Now, look, I realize dealers don't like this idea one little but
that's how I feel about pricey linen backed posters at this point and
I'm sure I'm not alone. The sooner the selling community gets
together (hey, have a conference in Dallas) and establishes some kind
of provenance's and independent verification system, these kinds of
questions are going to be asked by potential buyers. And well they
should be.
So, to finish answering this questions, asking about a poster on this
list is precisely what this list it for. It allows for the soliciting
of not just opinions about a poster, but in this case caused Diane to
step forward and confirm the poster's authenticity. How else would
that provenance have come to light if not for a question about it on
this list. MOPO isn't just a place for sellers to post the FA
messages. It it were, very shortly there would be no one but sellers
as members of MOPO.
I'm not sure what you objected to in my comment about the Metropolis
poster, unless it was just that you are friends with Ken. After all,
the first thing I said was that it was a beautiful poster (who could
argue with that). Then I said was that the asking price of $2 million
bucks was absurd, since this poster sold a couple of years ago for
$700,000. Sure, a seller can ask whatever they want, but $2 million
is clearly nowhere near a reasonable price to expect to get for this
poster at this time (maybe 20 years from now it might be). That is
three times what the owner paid for it a couple of years ago and that
$700 K was obviously the high-water price at that point -- the most
anyone interested in that poster was willing to pay a couple of years
ago. Which is why my mentioning the recession was also perfectly
appropriate. While collectible prices may hold up better in a
recession than most other things, in an economic collapse as serious
as this one, you just don't get the kind of continual,
ever-increasing price run-ups that would allow such a huge jump in
what people are willing to pay for this poster in just a couple of
years. Even if a museum wanted it, their acquisition budgets have
been cut back as well.
You ask "How do you reliably price such gems that are in such short
supply that only a small few people around the world can own them".
Well, you know perfectly well how. If you want to sell it you put it
out there for auction and see what the market is willing to pay, as
Todd just did with his Dracula. You also know that the proper
strategy for this is to start the bidding at a realistic level, as
Heritage did with Todd's poster, and see where it goes from there.
And besides, if Ken really wants to sell this poster, we all know
that eBay is not the place to do it. Christies is.
$2 million is not even remotely a realistic expectation and everyone
knows it. I was just stating the obvious... perhaps that was what you
really objected to? I dunno...
-- JR
Richard Halegua Comic Art wrote:
I have a question for our members:
why is it so common that people on this board & others feel the need
to "thread crap" on people's items that are listed for sale???
It happens all to often and is almost always unjustified
For instance, the recent dumping on the CFTBL 1sheet that was listed
on fleaBay of which there was so much chat on these boards
questioning it's authenticity, even after Diane Jeffrey pointed out
that she had linenbacked the poster in question. The poster went
unsold and you have to wonder if the thread-crapping by certain
members affected the fellow's ability to sell his poster, and what for??
I have no argument with anyone who makes justified comments on
thieves, but ruining someone's reputation or ability to sell
something they own is really something that goes over the line.
Now I'm not saying that JR is ruining anything on Schacter's
Metropolis poster in particular. Largely because anyone interested
in that poster could care less what anyone on this board except a
small few advanced collectors might think, but I have no doubt that
bashing on some items (like the CFTBL 1sh) affects the sellers, and
you have to ask - "for what purpose?"
JR is a friend of mine, and I do believe it's his right to comment
on postings to this board like it is anyone else's right.. but there
are ways to disagree without being disagreeable and that's the
difference between _"thoughtful commentary"_ and _"thread crapping"_
and honestly, I think JR is off base on this one and a tad over the line
Questioning the authenticity of the CFTBL poster should have begun
by questioning the seller directly, and getting the required
information to make justifiable comments. It should not begin by
indicating something is hinky. That's just poor journalism due to a
lack of understanding what the facts are. It's alot like Sarah Palin
calling a proposal to fund "end of life discussion with your doctor"
a Government "Death Panel".. It's a total crock of shit, and those
posts will follow that CFTBL poster around for some time. How can
anyone think that's right?? It's like the guy who gets called a
pedophile and is on the front page of every newspaper in America and
then when the facts reveal that the claim was a lie, the retraction
is on page 23 in small print. His life is ruined because of all the
sewing circle nannys who needed gossip.
To the Metropolis poster.. who can say what the poster is worth?? Or
who can say what Ken is justified in when profiting on his possession??
No question, the poster is very rare, although my understanding is
that there are more copies extant than the four he mentions in his
listing that are held in institutional collections. regardless, the
poster is what is referred to in art circles as _"priceless"_ just
as Todd's (and Borst's) copies of posters like Dracula. How do you
reliably price such gems that are in such short supply that only a
small few people around the world can own them??
Do I feel the poster is worth $2,000,000??
To be honest, I don't have an opinion on that factor. It belongs to
Ken, you can't find another if you try. He can ask whatever he feels
like asking. If someone wants to fork over $2m, that's between him
and Ken, just like if someone wants to give Todd $995,000 for his
Dracula poster - that's between Todd and the buyer.
We're not talking about a Forbidden Planet poster that is easily
found, or a Day the Earth Stood Still or a Dr No Quad, all posters
that can be had for a certain price and if someone were to ask
$50,000 for any of them that we can all point to market sales
indicating true values.. The Metropolis poster is the equivalent of
_"one of a kind rarity"_ and is not subject to the same
equivocations as posters that you can find if you're looking.
For the record, I'm not shocked at the $2,000,000 asking price Ken
has on the poster - I'm shocked that he is interested in selling the
poster at all seeing as he worked so hard to put the money together
to buy it and saved so many months..
Rich
Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com
<http://www.filmfan.com>
___________________________________________________________________
How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List
Send a message addressed to: lists...@listserv.american.edu
In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L
The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com
___________________________________________________________________
How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List
Send a message addressed to: lists...@listserv.american.edu
In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L
The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
