Hello Stephen, Bo and all!
Thanks for your thoughts Bo and Stephen.
First Bo if i may?
Quality relieved me of all that science stuff also.
I came to realise that science is a creative activity; a quality activity —
and high quality at that.
But the static patterns a high quality creative activity generates is not the
whole of reality is it?
Not even a MOQ does that!
Now and then, i am attracted to the ever gushing fountain of quality we think
of as scientific endeavour; there are some titillating things going on out
there, and sometimes it can all be too irresistible? ;)
Now, this is my point:
I thought about 5th level latching from the point of view of quality.
I imagined what 5th level would be moving away from, and how 4th level would
be manipulated and controlled; how 4th level would be the site of emergence
for 5th level?
And guess what?
All that irresistible stuff that quality relieves us from is the site of
emergence for 5th level!
That high quality intellectual stuff?!?
OK!
Speculation again — its fun! :-)
But lets get back to quality...
Direct stimulation of the brain bypasses conventional sensory input.
[ Can you imagine Descartes with this! :-) ]
The move would be pure quality; no one is going to wish to disintegrate ones
individuality and integrity unless the perceived relationship between
technology and self was of value? Once emergent 5th level had overcome our
Frankenstein complex of leaping into the fearful unknown, 5th level will be
off on its own path.
Do you not feel it to be ironic that the possibility of many minds,
(intellectual patterns) in a relationship with individuality destroying 5th
level — as a DQ event — to be deeply challenging to SOM!
Stephen?
In the context of Self/AI relationship, a priori models of anything become
nebulous?
Intellectual patterns may become fully public?
Best wishes everyone...
Squonk. :-)
In a message dated 6/28/01 11:05:21 AM GMT Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: RE: MD A fifth quality level?
Date: 6/28/01 11:05:21 AM GMT Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stephen Devlin)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ('[EMAIL PROTECTED]')
Bo said
"the point is that I have come to regard the intellectual level
as the crux. Most people tend to look upon it as consciousness or
MIND (of what Pirsig calls SOM) but it should rather be regarded
as the mind/matter division itself. The very idea of a subject
observing an objective world. REASON!!!"
One of the problems I have with the mind/matter division is language. We
describe an "object" as composed of matter outside of time itself. One of
ZAMM's helpful analogies (of which there are several) was the apriori
motorbike. After reading this it is clear that we assume that matter has a
stable structure but this is all related to time (even mountains crumble and
stars have a shelf life).
If our intellects are reticent to keep this temporal quality in mind as we
contemplate various ideas we're not going to get anywhere(as we will have
only a partial view).Perhaps the intelect obscures this temporal
quality(entropy acting?) to prevent us contemplating our own lifespan, at a
certain level that could be depressing which is not good for survival.
The intellect likes hierarchies, boxes, tables and further abstractions
but the Anahorov-Bohm effect (experimentally verified) is showing that
matter is aware of its surroundings thus showing that there is an
interrelationship that the present MOQ hierarchy doesn't address.Quantum
physics is showing that there is a point where in an experiment the observer
is affecting the observed,this leads you to consider if the mind/matter
division is a false construct (as mind "could" be affecting the matter it
"thinks" it is isolated from and if so where does that put intellect?
Quality (ie meaning,value) is stilll left strong,
Language also gives us the false impression that by giving a label to a
"thing" be it a tree or a metaphysics we have somehow sufficiently grasped
(intellectually) that "thing". As all of us are aware in any matter there
are countless interactions happening simultaneously that our intellects have
no sensory input for yet none of these interactions appear in a metaphysics,
or if they do their meaning is only appreciated at an organic level and then
left there on the lowest rung by an intellect that "may or may not" like the
implications of those interactions. If intellect is the highest of the
levels in the MOQ hierarchy then why does the hormones and chemicals in the
body devastate its ability to function in a lot of individuals
(psychosomatic illness as an example of the intellect?(speculating) damaging
its body and itself to what purpose?
bye for now
sephen
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 28 June 2001 08:36
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: MD A fifth quality level?
Stephen, Squonk & MoQ Discuss.
I have discussed the Quality idea at these moq.org sites for ever it
seems, and have heard/seen names dropped (none mentioned
none forgotten) all supposed to say the same as Pirsig or their
ideas to have some bearing on the Quality Metaphysics. Nothing
wrong with this, let me just ramble on a little.
In the sixties I was fascinated by Relativity and read everything
about that, later I got hooked on Quantum Physics and read
everything available on quantum-related stuff; for instance Danah
Zohar and her Einstein-Bose condensate as the site of
consciousness. I also looked into the many theories forwarded to
reconcile experience with the quantum strangeness. Multiverses,
wormholes ....etc, but the Quality Metaphysics relieved me from
the science folly.
I hope I don't sound quasi-religious, it's not that retro-kind of relief
the MoQ offers (and I have not stopped reading science magazines
completely), but it has somehow gone the scientific path all the
way and landed in a new territory. You (Stephen and Squonk) may
not have been with the discussion for very long (or looked into old
posts) but I guess you have some basic knowledge about the
MoQ, the point is that I have come to regard the intellectual level
as the crux. Most people tend to look upon it as consciousness or
MIND (of what Pirsig calls SOM) but it should rather be regarded
as the mind/matter division itself. The very idea of a subject
observing an objective world. REASON!!!
This is where the MoQ takes leave of everything previously
conceived of. We seem to be the stuck in the picture that we
perceive the world from some "God's eye view", but in the MoQ
there is no upper limit to the Q-evolution and a development above
the Intellect may well be possible. So now, Squonk, you possibly
see what I am up to: If Intellect isn't consciousness/awareness
(mind) then a development out-of-intellect is no supermind.
Quantum-computed or not.
Enough for now.
Bo
PS
Thanks Stephen for the material you sent me. >>
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