I would love it if we could share running records/formative assessments and 
teaching/point strategies/ where to go with the kiddos who just aren't moving.
We do not use dibbles anymore, but we did as a Reading First School ($funding) 
Now we are back to reading workshop / CAFÉ-D5.
My new teachers are having a hard time managing formative assessment, time, etc.
kristin

-----Original Message-----
From: Mosaic 
[mailto:mosaic-bounces+caballk=dearborn.k12.mi...@literacyworkshop.org] On 
Behalf Of Palmer, Jennifer
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 1:27 PM
To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group
Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] a question

Sally
First---to your last point! YES! Share some running records and miscues and 
let's discuss the miscues and what it says about students. If you have some to 
start us off with, go right ahead with my blessing. I think a lot of us would 
find that a powerful learning experience.

Second... I think many teachers confuse purposes for assessments...or they try 
to make one assessment do too many things. Some assessments are meant to fuel 
instruction. These are the more formative assessments that you are describing 
below. We listen to kids read. We infer about their reading process through 
their miscues. We look at their writing and infer their knowledge of text 
structure...phonics and writing conventions.  Dibels, though the company might 
argue otherwise, is a different sort of assessment. The purpose of DIBELS and 
also TPRI  is really to identify kids at risk. Students who can't meet a 
certain benchmark are at risk of being unsuccessful readers. A student who 
can't read a certain number of words per minute is usually (not always) 
struggling in reading. It is used to figure out who (which students) to spend 
more time on...not necesarily how to spend that time. Example...letter name 
knowledge is one of the strongest predictors of whether or not a student is 
going to be able to read successfully...BUT, teaching letter names is really 
going to ensure kids can decode. Think about it...when we sound out a word, we 
really only need to know the sound, not the name. Students who are very slow 
readers may truly be at risk...but unless you know why they are slow readers, 
you cannot remediate accurately and therefore we get into all kinds of bad 
practices like training kids to speed read.

Districts/schools have a vested interest in knowing exactly who might struggle. 
If we do our jobs well, we don't use DIBELS info alone to set up an 
intervention program. We do what YOU are suggesting...get into observing 
specifics and intervene where students are coming up short as they process 
text. 

And then there is the type of assessment that is used to track progress for 
schools. State tests really can't inform day to day instruction...but there is 
a need for districts to be able to tell whether or not schools are, overall, 
successfully teaching. State tests are used legitimately for that purpose... 
but we often try to make that data work for other purposes...and it's not meant 
to. 

When we are deciding on a new assessment, we have to think...what do I need to 
know? Who  is the audience for this data? If we want to inform classroom 
instruction...it needs to be ongoing...in the moment...not added on, but part 
of what we do every day. If we use something like Dibels (which I have NEVER 
been a fan of), we do need to make sure we use it for what it is meant to do. 
Identify kids who may need intervention. How we intervene, requires different 
assessments altogether

Jennifer L. Palmer, Ed. D.

Instructional Facilitator

National Board Certified Teacher



Magnolia Elementary (home school)

901 Trimble Road

Joppa, MD 21085

410-612-1553

Fax 410-612-1576

"Reaching, Teaching, Learning, Changing Lives!!"



Norrisville Elementary

5302 Norrisville Road

White Hall, MD 21161

410-692-7810

Fax 410-692-7812

Where Bright Futures Begin!!

________________________________________
From: Mosaic [mosaic-bounces+jennifer.palmer=hcps....@literacyworkshop.org] on 
behalf of Sally Thomas [sally.thom...@verizon.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 12:11 PM
To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group
Subject: [MOSAIC] a question

I guess I understand that the powers that be don't trust teachers to assess 
their own students.  And I do "get" that it is useful to do some kind of 
assessment where teachers can come together around agreed upon understandings 
of what a child's strengths and needs are.  So overall i get doing some agreed 
upon assessments perhaps several times a year.  For me I prefer assessments 
that are closer to the actual work involved - like writing a real text or 
reading a real book.  so I like the DRA  better than anything remotely like 
Diebels.  (I actually prefer miscue analysis and like the Teachers College 
assessments which are similar to DRA but more interesting texts etc.  but 
that's just a preference.)

but here is my question.  At the beginning of the year I needed to get to know 
my students well.  Needed initial reading and writing assessments to see their 
strengths and needs.  Also to find out their feelings about reading and writing 
and their interests etc.  That provided my baseline data.

But after that I always read individually with my kids during reading workshop 
(besides shared reading etc. in other parts of my literacy time) at minimum 
once every two or three weeks, more often with those struggling a bit.  During 
those times I listen carefully with miscue eyes and ears and take quick 
informal notes.  I can catch that they are now self correcting.  Or see them 
chunk a word. Or chuckle at a funny part so I know they're understanding.   I 
need that information to see how they're growing and what I need to teach or 
help with  next!  I do not get how we support kids without this ongoing 
assessment.  It is easy to do informally along the way.  We don't need official 
numbers etc.  You can easily judge if they are struggling with too many words 
for the chosen text.  And i have pretty good ideas (not exact) about the 
challenge levels of different texts.

sometimes here I get the impression that teachers are only assessing through 
the "official" assessments?   And I wrong    Maybe it's that teachers are doing 
most of their teaching whole class with basal type reading programs???  I am 
just not understanding I guess how many teachers there are who are still 
teaching in workshop formats at least some of the time.  How many teachers 
assess in ongoing ways all the time?

Just wondering.

On another list we are sharing some transcripts of kids reading with the actual 
text and the child's reading of that text and then sharing our interpretations 
of their miscues and strategies.  Is there any interest in doing some of that 
on this list?

Sally
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