AFAIK "artist intent" pre-dates NGS (there were only tracks). Maybe something for the documentation review team to look into? It would be weird if you could completely replace the title, but not variations in spelling...
Regarding structure, I've just done a major rewrite of the proposal, so I'm going to stick with this for a while. I don't understand the 7 paragraphs bit? Nothing about recording titles in this proposal. 2013/8/13 Tom Crocker <tomcrockerm...@gmail.com> > So, having re-read the style principles, I'm not sure that the title the > composer gave to the work is what's being referred to in artist intent. > http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style/Principle/Artist_intent#Artist_Intent > It seems like a narrower concept about special stylising - generally > spelling and capitalisation? > > > On 13 August 2013 16:55, lixobix <arjtap...@aol.com> wrote: > >> symphonick wrote >> > 2013/8/13 Frederic Da Vitoria < >> >> > davitofrg@ >> >> > > >> > >> >> Ah, I got it: because the sonata was originally titled in Italian. But >> >> still, the nickname was given by a German poet, so should the nickname >> be >> >> in the language of the composition or in the language it was first >> given >> >> in? >> >> >> >> >> > If we're talking about nicknames in the disambiguation field, the >> language >> > it was first given in maybe isn't a bad idea? >> > I'm not a fan of nicknames in the (original) title field, and for >> primary >> > aliases the nickname would have to be in the set language. >> > >> > >> >> >> >> 2013/8/13 Frederic Da Vitoria < >> >> > davitofrg@ >> >> > > >> >> >> >>> 2013/8/12 lixobix < >> >> > arjtaplin@ >> >> > > >> >>> >> >>>> symphonick wrote >> >>>> > 2013/8/12 lixobix < >> >>>> >> >>>> > arjtaplin@ >> >>>> >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> symphonick wrote >> >>>> >> > Update: I've moved the untitled stuff to a separate section. >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >>>> On 08/09/2013 02:12 PM, symphonick wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> > Now that you mention artist intent, my advice about >> original >> >>>> >> titles >> >>>> >> >>>> > looks problematic too. If artist intent overrides, we can't >> >>>> change >> >>>> >> >>>> the >> >>>> >> >>>> > title given by the composer? >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Good question. We do need the title to be recognizable in the >> >>>> search >> >>>> >> >>>> results. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> This also affects “nicknames”: Why are “modern titles” OK for >> >>>> the >> >>>> >> >>>> title, >> >>>> >> >>>> but “nicknames” not, given that both are unofficial names? >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> That line seems rather fuzzy to me. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> It only works if you upgrade the modern title to a "real" >> title >> >>>> >> first... >> >>>> >> >>> Logically, unofficial names shouldn't go into titles. >> >>>> >> >>> Nicknames are local (except maybe "moonlight sonata"); that >> is, >> >>>> it's >> >>>> >> >>> possible that a nickname exists in only one specific country. >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> I have a better explanation today :-) I've (once again) >> mistaken >> >>>> the >> >>>> >> >> development terminology page >> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Worksfor >> >>>> a >> >>>> >> >> guideline :-( >> >>>> >> >> That's where the "canonical title" comes from. I'd like the >> >>>> classical >> >>>> >> >> works guideline to follow a standard mb works title guideline, >> so >> >>>> >> >> sometimes >> >>>> >> >> I dream that we have one... >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> Unless we can make a guideline that overruns artist intent, >> we'll >> >>>> have >> >>>> >> to >> >>>> >> >> stick with the composer's title. >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >>> Maybe we could have a list with exceptions (like St. Matthew >> >>>> >> Passion), >> >>>> >> >>> but we could also see it as a search results UI issue; if one >> >>>> primary >> >>>> >> >>> alias >> >>>> >> >>> was shown in the search results, it wouldn't matter if the >> >>>> original >> >>>> >> >>> title >> >>>> >> >>> is archaic. >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> At the very least, all of “artist-given names”, “modern >> titles”, >> >>>> and >> >>>> >> >>>> “nicknames” should all go into the aliases in some form, for >> >>>> >> >>>> findability >> >>>> >> >>>> if nothing else. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Maybe have “modern name” as the main work title, >> “artist-given >> >>>> name” >> >>>> >> as >> >>>> >> >>>> the primary alias, and “nicknames” as search hint? It feels >> >>>> weird to >> >>>> >> >>>> recommend that the main title not be a primary alias, but I >> >>>> think it >> >>>> >> >>>> might go with what we want/need. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> Archaic titles/Nicknames: Why use the disambiguation field? Surly >> >>>> the >> >>>> >> modern >> >>>> >> title/nicknames should be in brackets after the main title, in the >> >>>> title >> >>>> >> field. I consider the disambiguation field should be used only >> when >> >>>> two >> >>>> >> different entities would be easily confused as the same thing. >> >>>> >> >> >>>> > >> >>>> > I thought of it more as search help in this instance. BTW, I meant >> to >> >>>> > suggest "modern" titles should go into primary aliases, & then I'd >> >>>> like to >> >>>> > see one alias in the UI. >> >>>> > As a temporary workaround, putting them after the title could work, >> >>>> there >> >>>> > can be language issues though, you'd have to fallback to composer's >> >>>> > preferred language sometimes (as in the Bach example). >> >>>> > >> >>>> > Nicknames are a different thing. Artist intent aside, nicknames are >> >>>> local, >> >>>> > and if you want a nickname in the title, it would have to be in the >> >>>> same >> >>>> > language as the rest of the title, that is Sonata quasi una >> fantasia, >> >>>> op. >> >>>> > 27 no. 2 "*Chiaro di luna*", not "Moonlight sonata". >> >>>> > >> >>>> > Subtitles: Similarly, why put these in the annotation rather than >> in >> >>>> >> brackets in the title field, after the main title? What is the >> >>>> rationale >> >>>> >> behind this approach? >> >>>> >> >> >>>> > >> >>>> > Because all sorts of junk can go into the sub-title line (as I'm >> >>>> trying to >> >>>> > show with the examples). Only the Berlioz example qualifies as a >> real >> >>>> > sub-title (and possibly the John Adams example). I'm not totally >> >>>> against >> >>>> > the idea, but it will require that editors understand the >> difference. >> >>>> Most >> >>>> > of the time it's instrumentation ("für zwei Violinen, Viola und >> >>>> > Violoncello"). On top of that, you would have to figure out if it's >> >>>> from >> >>>> > the composer or the editor. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > /symphonick >> >>>> > >> >>>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> > MusicBrainz-style mailing list >> >>>> >> >>>> > MusicBrainz-style@.musicbrainz >> >>>> >> >>>> > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm thinking along the lines that if the work is commonly know by a >> >>>> particular name, nickname, subtitle etc. that should be included in >> >>>> brackets >> >>>> after the proper (canonical?) title. Moonlight Sonata would be a good >> >>>> example. Such an approach would leave editors with more discretion, >> >>>> which >> >>>> may or may not be desired, but I think that in some cases such titles >> >>>> should >> >>>> be included. Is this averse to the thinking of most classical users? >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> I agree with symphonick, the nickname should be in the original >> >>> language, >> >>> but I don't understand why he used Italian, shouldn't it rather be >> >>> Mondscheinsonate ?* >> >>> * >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Frederic Da Vitoria >> >>> (davitof) >> >>> >> >>> Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - >> >>> http://www.april.org >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Frederic Da Vitoria >> >> (davitof) >> >> >> >> Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - >> >> http://www.april.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> MusicBrainz-style mailing list >> >> >> >> > MusicBrainz-style@.musicbrainz >> >> >> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > /symphonick >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > MusicBrainz-style mailing list >> >> > MusicBrainz-style@.musicbrainz >> >> > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style >> >> Ok, having looked through the proposal again, I'm still massively confused >> by the multiplicity of titles: archaic, modern, canonical, subtitles, >> nicknames, original language, transliterations, aliases. Is there a reason >> why not to have one official title, as the composer intended, in the >> compositions language, one primary alias for each language >> (transliteration >> of the official title), and put everything else as a secondary alias in >> the >> relevant language? That seems to be almost what you're saying, but not in >> seven paragraphs. I would write it: >> >> Para 1: How to establish the official title >> Para 2: The primary alias for each language is a transliteration of the >> offical title >> Para 3: Any other title is a secondary alias in the language in which the >> title is written >> >> Also, AFIK work data is not accessible through Picard. Are we also talking >> about recording titles? >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Classical-works-part-II-Titles-tp4656529p4656761.html >> Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> MusicBrainz-style mailing list >> MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org >> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style >> > > > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style > -- /symphonick
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