Bryan Off to a meeting - I'll come back on this tomorrow and I don't think I'm confused...just not a scientist.
Regards James On 27 September 2010 12:30, Bryan Lawrence <[email protected]>wrote: > Hi James > > I think you confuse content with form. > > It is the day job of my science support team to ensure that information > gets into *whatever* pipeline for metadata etc that exists. I think the > same statement would apply in all the data centres. > > That's why I don't think that you want an admin function, since managing > data information is what we do, and it's a science activty it's not a > support/admin activity. > > Yes, we need a mechanism to support improvements, but it doesn't happen > via admin ... > > (And, yes, I think the single face is only fed by the data centres, and > so, no it ought not be possible for data to appear any other way, since > the data centres own the decision as to whether it is appropriate for > data to appear that is not held by them, *and* the mechanism.) > > Bryan > > > > > Bryan > > > > Likewise > > > > James > > > > On 27 September 2010 11:07, Bryan Lawrence > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > Hi James > > > > > > See inline. > > > > > > > The main debating point is the 'centralised administrative > > > > function'. We all know that there is already a NERC Data > > > > Management Coordinator that has been in place for 7+ years. > > > > Perhaps what we're recognising is that this role is a key > > > > *people* component of the IA but given all the other 'pulls' on > > > > this role, the IA has not yet found the gravity to get more > > > > specific focus from this role. It was clear back in 2004 that > > > > the DMC needed support and this was accepted by NERC at that > > > > time. The NDG MSI spend some funds on improving the management > > > > information available from the DDS but I'm not sure whether this > > > > capability is being used to any great effect. There have been > > > > some issues in sorting out what is a real search on the DDS and > > > > what is a visit from our friends at Google. The NDG MSI > > > > recommended that marketing and communication should be funded > > > > and improved.... > > > > > > > > We're suggesting that some sort of central help (not at DMC > > > > level) is likely to be necessary to do some/all of the above > > > > (and probably more) from a Single Face of NERC point of view. In > > > > order to do effective marketing and branding you have to know > > > > what's going on and what is planned. > > > > > > I don't doubt we need governance, and more joined up working, but > > > I suspect what is being proposed is fighting battles from the last > > > war. What i see now is a relatively joined up response, and it > > > certainly needs ongoing governance - what I don't see is how a > > > central *admin* person for this activity will help. What will they > > > do day to day? > > > > > > It might be we agree on some tasks that need doing in a coordinated > > > way, but I don't yet understand your vision for this role. Is it > > > really just about marketing and branding? > > > > > > > > But what is the reference number? Grant numbers wont apply to > > > > > everything, and there is *NO* number which covers what is done > > > > > in all centres ... but each data centre could and should be > > > > > reposnsible for project descriptions and a URI scheme. > > > > > > > > We know that there is no number that covers everything - some > > > > will have something others won't. There may be two or more > > > > numbers (Grant Number, Project Number...) or a number > > > > accompanied by a type. > > > > > > Ok, this is different from what I had understood. I think this is > > > ok ... but better would be a URI to a project description, and > > > the NERC data centres should maintain those as well (it's patently > > > obvious we need to do it from existing experience, and it should > > > join up with EOF). > > > > I think we now agree on this but the devil may be in the detail - > > some RCs definitely want to have searchable project codes in their > > discovery metadata. > > > > > > > > 2. Projects producing data should have the option of making > > > > > > their metadata (discovery *et al*) and data services > > > > > > available to the 'Single Face of NERC'. > > > > > > Yes, but I think your answers below have me wondering what you > > > really mean. > > > > > > The information is going to have to go *via* the data centres, even > > > if projects provide their own discovery documents (which is > > > unlikely). > > > > So we are saying that *all* data that appears via the Single Face of > > NERC can only get their via a NERC Data Centre? > > > > > > > > - Those projects not wanting to make their metadata and > > > > > > services > > > > > > > > > > > > available to the 'single face of NERC' should provide a > > > > > > > > > > > > documented rationale > > > > > > > > > > > > behind this decision. > > > > > > - Those projects that do want to make their metadata > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > services available to the 'single face of NERC' should > > > > > > provide documented estimated > > > > > > > > > > > > timings, volumetrics etc to the administrative function > > > > > > > > > > > > supporting the 'single face of NERC'. > > > > > > > > > > timings of what? volumes of what? this has traditoinally > > > > > involved some investigation by data centre staff rather than > > > > > expecting to be told what we need ... > > > > > > > > Sticking with timings - we're referring to when components of the > > > > data (metadata, data services) are likely to become available to > > > > the 'Single Face of NERC' (not the Data Centres - that's their > > > > bag). > > > > > > Can't see how they get to the "Single Face" except via the data > > > centres. What do you wman? > > > > Is there an instance where data could appear via the Single Face of > > NERC without going through a Data Centre? My guess is that you're > > going to say No. Same question as above really. > > > > > > Inevitably this will have to involve Data Centre staff as the > > > > data will become available via the data centre. Whether its the > > > > Data Centre staff or the Data Providers (probably best to be the > > > > former) doing the communicating, we feel that there is a need > > > > for more central coordination. > > > > > > Of what? Exactly? > > > > Of information coming out of this process. By following the existing > > process, discovery metadata and related data services could (in > > theory and practice) just appear in the DDS (which is fine). My > > question is how would anyone know that this had happened and if it's > > a particularly important service how can we promote its recent (or > > predicted - hence timings) appearance. Once it has appeared, what do > > we want to know about it - number of accesses, downloads, citations? > > How will such information be communicated up, down and across to > > demonstrate the value of the IA and the dataset? Do we care as once > > its there its there? Do we want the community to recommend > > improvements? How many accesses are there directly through the Data > > Centre as oppose to through the Single Face of NERC? To me this role > > would be a resource to help answer some of these questions (and many > > more) to support better investment decisions in the future. > > > > > > > ... but there is no need to invoke a centralised admin > > > > > function. > > > > > > > > A centralised function already exists, albeit not administrative, > > > > so it's not a massive leap so give that function some support > > > > (even if it were on a short/medium timescale) to bring this > > > > together working with the Data Centres (as recommended and > > > > accepted by NERC in 2004). > > > > > > To do what? Exactly? I don't know what this function would be. > > > > Perhaps the current DMC should be brought into this debate - I'm > > pretty sure they aren't on this mailing list. I'm not going to > > second guess what all the functions could be and certainly not in > > isolation. I've referred to a few above and a few below - > > extrapolate that to 6 Data Centres and you might get at least a part > > time role. > > > > > > > > 3. The point made in 2 infers that there is a need for human > > > > > > intervention as the decisions are likely to be subjective. > > > > > > Thus an administration role seems to be required that would > > > > > > oversee the population of the 'single face of NERC', they > > > > > > would also check that metadata is supplied as and when > > > > > > expected. > > > > > > > > > > Yes ... that would be business as usual if it were done by the > > > > > data centres, and I can't imagine any centralised solution > > > > > that would have the relevant expertise to do it. > > > > > > > > Ignoring the expertise side as I agree that there is no point in > > > > having an administrator who is a informatics expert. If you can > > > > demonstrate how the Single Face of NERC is going to promote its > > > > capabilities and requirements to the community it intends to > > > > serve (as recommended in the NDG MSI Final Report) via 6+ Data > > > > Centres without some sort of central coordination then great. > > > > > > Not sure we are agreeing here at all. Maybe we need some > > > centralised informatics, maybe we don't, but I don't see what the > > > admin role would do. > > > > OK - so what you're saying (if I understand this correctly) is that > > your informatics experts are actually performing some administrative > > task in this process - checking that metadata arrives when it > > should?; checking that the information in the appropriate fields > > makes sense?; checking that url references work?; checking that > > contact details are up to date? etc. Perhaps there is some scope to > > take some of this administrative burden away from these experts? > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > --- > > > Bryan Lawrence > > > Director of Environmental Archival and Associated Research > > > (NCAS/British Atmospheric Data Centre and NCEO/NERC NEODC) > > > STFC, Rutherford Appleton Laboratory > > > Phone +44 1235 445012; Fax ... 5848; > > > Web: home.badc.rl.ac.uk/lawrence > Bryan Lawrence > Director of Environmental Archival and Associated Research > (NCAS/British Atmospheric Data Centre and NCEO/NERC NEODC) > STFC, Rutherford Appleton Laboratory > Phone +44 1235 445012; Fax ... 5848; > Web: home.badc.rl.ac.uk/lawrence > -- James Doughty Director Diass Limited 07985 443973 [email protected]
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