agree completely with you here; the issue is dismissals on all sides,
which does affect the ability of musicians to earn a decent wage, for
example - that's what our four-day-improvisation at Eyebeam in 2012 (I
think) was about in part -
but then one could say, it's the audience that decides where the money
goes of course, so if for example robotic music/voice is preferred, then
why not?
but the one might analyze the culture and what occurs within the culture
when for example K-Pop dominates, and what happens to those singers and
musicians themselves? (three have committed suicide recently, one popular
group is on hiatus etc.).
ah, there's darkness and a little light everywhere -
On Thu, 5 Dec 2019, Michael Szpakowski wrote:
Hi all <But it's all only
music, sound, yes?> I think it?s much more and that is what surfaces time and
again in the discussion : music is a human social practice ( like language ,
like all art) - it?s something human beings *do* ( and talk about, then do
some more) .And this doing involves, whatever the technology, the fact of
our embodiment. This doing is tied up with but not exactly reducible to some
kind of communicative impulse - one that refers to ideas, but more
importantly to affect... It also refers to itself - to previous practices
and how they were carried out, to assessments of them &c That richness is
why I cavill at wholesale dismissals ( or indeed endorsements) ?Truth is
always concrete? as good old Vladimir Ilyich said...
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Thursday, December 5, 2019, 2:11 am, Alan Sondheim <sondh...@panix.com>
wrote:
Beautiful -
Then again, in the discussion, for me it's got to do with
steering
mechanisms and a kind of Wired magazine collocation of
technological
epiphanies. There's more than that, there's room for everything;
it's when
one or another form dominates, the problems start up. But it's
all only
music, sound, yes?
On Thu, 5 Dec 2019, Simon Mclennan via NetBehaviour wrote:
> Indeed Michael all things are a product of this world. And as
such are
> inevitable. Hierarchies therein generate processes and
inevitable outcomes.
> So yes, there?s great swathes of stuff to sort through. Made
via machines.
> I find that type of ultra commercial music dull to listen to -
people can do
> cultural studies sure, of these forms. Look good in the old
ica bookshop.
> But there is so much good music and art.
> I guess if one can shine a light on political or philosophical
or moral
> questions, relevances then good on you.
> I prefer to actually make music and art. Not talk about bad
pop Muzak
> myself.
> Ha ha guess I always put my foot in it.
> The carbuncle of the chattering classes.
> What?s different about Grimes then? AI in music is it changing
people?- of
> course it reflects back into people?s values etc.
> Corporate pop has been around a few decades no?
> Techno and beats. Beats forever.
> Forever beatific eh Alan.
> Alan on the path looked up at me
> Me on the fence
> Singing him a song
> Alan agreed with me
> About animal exploitation
> In the Prometheus show
> In the toilet on the park
> In London
> We were together
> With the bacteria teeth
> And the little statuettes
> Of bodies clinging
> I singed at Alan
> Then we talked a bit
> He went to America again
> I never saw him since
> But seen his jangling and fast runs on the saz
> And we discussed improv
> He done it twenty years longer than me
> Cos he is about 18 years my senior
> And writes a lot
> Creative and disjointed
> Knows my landlord Aharon
> Who skates and records the rumble
>
>
>
> Sent from my spyphone
>
> On 4 Dec 2019, at 23:48, Michael Szpakowski
<m...@michaelszpakowski.org> wrote:
>
> Maybe the question for music as it is for the network and lots
> else should be ?what wealth of human practices would a
decently
> ordered and resourced world for everyone allow?? Often we seem
to
> critique the products of a distorted world rather than the
> distortion itself, carts before horses...
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 11:42 pm, Michael Szpakowski
> <m...@michaelszpakowski.org> wrote:
>
> Ah ha! Misled by my relative ignorance of the
> specifics and the later reference to rap.. but...
> still my point stands... we lose something if we
> abandon wholesale physically actuated sound and the
> fragility of the live but wholesale dismissal of new
> musical practices is foolish, blunts our lives and
> experiences... fiercely critical openness seems to
> me the order of the day :)
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 9:45 pm, Rob Myers
> <r...@robmyers.org> wrote:
>
> Grimes -
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Anthropocene
>
> I?m a big fan of all three but for very different reasons.
>
> - Rob.
>
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 1:13 PM, Michael Szpakowski
> <m...@michaelszpakowski.org> wrote:
> Do you mean Grime Simon? I?m unclear. I think
> there is a big difference between a healthy
> scepticism and nuanced discussion about how
> tech can on occasion be ill used and the
> dismissal of whole swathes of work...
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 6:36 pm, Simon
> Mclennan via NetBehaviour
> <netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org> wrote:
>
> Have to weigh in in this! Grimes.
> Sorry. Yes ? Grimes. Utterly
> soulless product without anything
> of cultural value to me, musical
> or otherwise. This discussion
> between these three entities makes
> me yawn. It?s all about money -
> absolutely nothing else - it?s the
> equivalent of Smash powdered
> potatoes - worse than that.
> These people are completely without musical
> talent - the so-name AI is less than the dirt
> under the nails of the Ed Blackwell.
> Technology is only about generating revenue.
> It does not help musicians - rap is a
> festering sore on the ass of the bourgeoisie.
> An undeniable itch - when scratched and
> cauterised momentarily it oozes some wealth
> for a tiny few participants.
> Sorry I rarely contribute to this list - and I
> dig you cats for keeping the stuff rumbling
> along the conveyor / keep it up and ? where?s my
> Jazzmaster and homemade inks....
>
> Sent from my spyphone
>
> On 28 Nov 2019, at 18:11, Alan Sondheim via
> NetBehaviour
> <netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org> wrote:
>
> It's definitely a discussion we
> need to have. It reminds me of a
> dinner I had years ago w/ Cage who
> confirmed he criticized jazz
> because the player worked with
> fixed rhythms. Something gets lost
> in these discussions; Adorno fails
> miserably.
> Ah well... It relates to my writing
> about 'somatic ghosting' I think. And I
> always feel I have to justify myself
> (although the audience doesn't feel it)
> when I show up playing an acoustic
> guitar for example. -- Alan
>
> On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 1:06 PM Rob
> Myers <r...@robmyers.org> wrote:
> On 2019-11-27 7:40 p.m.,
> Alan Sondheim wrote:
> >> This sounds so
> white/privileged to me, the
> position
> > of the listener paramount
> for example, the relegation
> of community to
> > reproduction, etc. It's a
> form of hip effacement. I
> realize I haven't
> > read everything HH's has
> written, but there's a
> fundamental difference
> > between a drum machine and
> a "great drummer" who came
> from community,
> > breathes within community,
> and contributes to
> community. Thinking for
> > example of free jazz, and
> the difficulties and
> explorations of the great
> > players, the relation of
> that music to the cry, the
> field holler, the
> > blues, gospel musics, etc.
>
> I think HH would agree with
> you.
>
> > and I keep returning to
> white white white white
> white and privilege.
> There is something
> class-bound about Grimes
> (currently dating a
> billionaire) and HH (whose
> last album was their PhD
> thesis) arguing
> about who the future will be
> worse for. But I suspect
> that our own
> reactions can be similarly
> reduced to our respective
> identities.
>
> There's obviously a bigger
> historical discussion about
> race, technology,
> intellectual property and
> music that AI and "AI" are
> just the latest
> phase of. Drum machines
> being prominent in rap and
> techno and disdain
> for them as tools may be
> related, for example. Given
> this, I'm genuinely
> surprised that AI has been
> instantly mainstreamed in
> music in the way
> that it seems to have. More
> like the Fairlight than the
> 808...
>
> - Rob.
>
>
>
> --
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