Thanks Rifaat, It's only been eight days but that last slide hasn't aged well and now seems foolishly optimistic :/
On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 8:48 AM Rifaat Shekh-Yusef <rifaat.i...@gmail.com> wrote: > The slides that Brian presented, and the minutes with a link to the > recording of the meeting are now available on the following link: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2020-oauth-02/session/oauth > > Regards, > Rifaat > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 8:12 AM Hannes Tschofenig < > hannes.tschofe...@arm.com> wrote: > >> Participants: >> >> >> >> - Roman Danyliw >> >> - Torsten Lodderstedt >> >> - Travis Spencer >> >> - Aaron Parecki >> >> - Ben Kaduk >> >> - Brian Campbell >> >> - Cigdem Sengul >> >> - Daniel Fett >> >> - David Waite >> >> - Filip >> >> - Jim Schaad >> >> - Justin Richer >> >> - Marco Tiloca >> >> - Matthew de Haast >> >> - Michael Peck >> >> - Mike Jones >> >> - Phil Hunt >> >> - Hannes Tschofenig >> >> - Joseph Heenan >> >> - David Waite >> >> - Bjorn Hjelm >> >> - Cristofer Gonzales >> >> - Tony Nadalin >> >> - Vittori >> >> - Rifaat >> >> >> >> Notes: >> >> >> >> Rifaat showed the list of documents relevant for the discussion >> >> >> >> >> >> Several documents are relevant to this discussion, including >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-pop-architecture-08 >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-signed-http-request-03 >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richanna-oauth-http-signature-pop-00 >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cavage-http-signatures-12 >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8613 >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-pop-key-distribution-07 >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7800 >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-33 >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-mtls-17 >> >> >> >> Brian went through his presentation. >> >> >> >> Hannes notes that OSCORE, a solution presented from the ACE group, is >> missing in the list. >> >> >> >> Brian responds that nobody in the OAuth world cares about OSCORE. >> >> >> >> Discussion about whether the ACE group uses the key distribution >> parameters for use with HTTP. Jim believes it does. >> >> >> >> Justin explained the work Annabelle was doing. >> >> >> >> Rifaat asked whether PoP + HTTP signing will solve his problem. >> >> >> >> Brian does not believe that HTTP signing solves anything and if it gets >> done then it will take a long time. It also does not cover the refresh >> token case. >> >> >> >> HTTP Signing is a lot about HTTP canonicalization. It will allow for >> signing and HMAC computation over the resulting string. >> >> >> >> Roman: For some HTTP signing may still be too expensive? >> >> >> >> Justin: Yes, we are starting with the cavage-http-signatures draft. There >> are some big problems with it. For example, what parts are signed. Depends >> on we sign it will be necessary to re-create the signature with every >> request. >> >> We need a profile for OAuth use to indicate where to send the token and >> what to include in the signature. >> >> >> >> Brian: I believe that every request should require a new signature. >> Finding out whether a signature can be omitted will be prohibitive. >> >> >> >> Justin: DPOP signs only a small number of elements and does not require >> HTTP signing. >> >> >> >> Justin: For the HTTP signature solution we are planning to offer a >> symmetric and an asymmetric key version. >> >> >> >> Justin: DPOP is a key presentation for single page application and it can >> probably be used with other apps too. We are going to have a PoP solution >> with an generic HTTP message mechanism. >> >> >> >> Torsten: How many deployable solutions do we have? >> >> >> >> Brian: We have probably 3 or 4 solutions. >> >> >> >> Justin: In terms of implementations we have 3. >> >> >> >> ?: What if we split the key distribution from the HTTP signing? >> >> >> >> Justin: That's how we wanted to do the generic approach. It is how we do >> it with HTTP signing. >> >> >> >> ?: What are you signing in the HTTP message? >> >> >> >> Justin: I believe if we have generic HTTP signing then we could re-use it >> with DPOP. >> >> >> >> Mike: Microsoft is internally deployed the old HTTP signing. The reason >> is that it is stable (although abandoned). Our product groups that is >> simple, like DPOP. John and I talked at the last IETF on how we wanted to >> do symmetric DPOP. Inherently you have to do a key distribution step. I >> would like to see the DPOP draft adopted as a WG draft (recognizing that it >> may be revised to include a symmetric key solution). >> >> >> >> The working group needs to make a decision on how to add symmetric key >> distribution. >> >> >> >> Filip: We would also like to see adoption. >> >> >> >> Roman: three options >> >> >> >> 1) Stay with POP key distribution >> >> 2) DPOP (as is) >> >> 3) Use ECDHE exchange from Neil >> >> >> >> Brian: We could add (3) to (2) but it would be difficult and >> prohibitively difficult. (3) should its own thing. Or maybe if the push for >> performance improvements is so big that we need to jump straight to (3). >> There is the risk of too many options. >> >> >> >> Torsten: Is the concern that (2) is too slow? >> >> >> >> Filip: At the last meeting there was a concern from AWS that signing of >> each request is prohibitively complex. But (2) works in my deployment. >> >> >> >> Mike: It depends on the use case. >> >> >> >> Phil: How does TLS 1.3 alter some of the requirements? What about the >> HTTP group doing the work on signing? >> >> >> >> Brian: I don't think there is any dependency. >> >> >> >> Justin: I do think that there is room for both. I don't think DPOP should >> be stretched to a generic solution and it isn't. It is a clever hack for a >> specific use case. >> >> >> >> Brian: I wouldn't agree on the term "hack".. >> >> >> >> Phil: I am concerned that the market tries to apply a limited solution to >> everything. >> >> >> >> Justin: That's why we need to standardize many solutions. DPOP makes a >> lot of sense as it is today. If you can layer a symmetric key solution then >> that's fine too. I think AWS should not use DPOP. >> >> >> >> Phil: I think we need to make clear that PoP is orthogonal to message >> signing. Saying that those things are separate going forward. I am worried >> that we are repeating the cycle for the 3rd or 4th time in 10 years. >> >> >> >> Mike: The market left OAuth 1.0 because of HTTP signing interoperability >> problems. >> >> >> >> Phil: When I was looking at MTLS there was a similar perception about >> whether it is actually needed. There are two extreme: (1) sign everything >> and encrypt everything and then (2) just use the existing stuff. >> >> >> >> Mike: I like DPOP because it does very little. It just as little as >> possible to demonstrate PoP for the token. >> >> >> >> Phil: Yes, I like that. >> >> >> >> Brian: There is certainly opportunity in the draft to make the draft >> clear. It is certainly for more use cases than for SPA-type apps. >> >> >> >> Rifaat: Any other comments? >> >> >> >> Next step is to take it to the list. There is also another question about >> the use of symmetric key in addition to asymmetric key. >> >> >> >> Roman: We will only do a call for adoption of the DPOP solution and not >> for any other option. >> >> >> >> Rifaat: Yes. >> >> >> >> Rifaat: Neither I nor Hannes will be at the Vancouver IETF meeting. >> >> >> >> The following participants are planning to be there: Justin, Aaron, Mike, >> Brian, David, Spencer, Tony, Matthew. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are >> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the >> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the >> information in any medium. 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