My 2 cents here: If you want a distribution that works, MAKE IT
I'm investing time of my own into OpenSim and making sure that the modules that I created ALWAYS work with the latest versions of Core. Some people even ask me sometimes why I take the time to make sure that the modules I created or that I contributed on work with both a release version but also the trunk. Simple answer: I want to make sure that even a simple soul can download, drop in a module and have it working. Fly-Man- 2009/10/1 Frisby, Adam <a...@deepthink.com.au>: > Well, to be honest OpenSim is designed so you don’t need to compile > something to install a module. > > > > It should be just dumped into the OpenSim dir as a .dll, and it should be > picked up and loaded automatically – so people doing modules; you can ship > binaries, and they will be reasonably compatible with a range of OpenSim > versions (but occasionally yes they will need to be recompiled to work > against trunk – especially during big internal shakeups). But that’s up to > you. > > > > Adam > > > > From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de > [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Joshua Garvin > Sent: Wednesday, 30 September 2009 4:28 PM > To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working > OpenSim Modules > > > > Mark's comment wasn't very well organized or thought out. It was basically > just an explosion of his frustration with OpenSim. > > But that doesn't mean that he doesn't have a few good points hidden in > there. > > I believe that looking at most other software projects in the world, you > would find that "core" or "base" products did not come into existence in a > vacuum. They were developed with a specific end product in mind that solved > an immediate need and/or desire. The developers of the end product most > likely worked heavily on the core products. The effect of that end product > was the world getting to see how great the technology is. Once people see > the possibilities your core provides, they will build other great products > from it. > > I don't intend to say that the first end product has to share a repository > with the core code. Just that there needs to be an end product being work > on by core developers. > > Do you need to include _every_ module in your releases? No. But you have > to do whatever it takes to make using the most common modules as easy as > possible. If half or even a 5th of your potential users want module X, then > it's fairly important that it's easy to install without knowing c#. > > You can do all of this the other way around -- but you're only hurting your > own popularity. > > Be excellent to each other and party on dudes! > - Joshua > _______________________________________________________ > Joshua Garvin > > On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Melanie <mela...@t-data.com> wrote: > > Holdit! > > OpenSim is NOT A PRODUCT. OpenSim is a BASE other people can make a > product out of. So, OpenSim aims to include as little as possible, > distros are the ones who will put it together and relicense it as > they see fit. > > OpenSim Core is not a maker of distros. We are not a product > company. We are a loose association of people who share an interest. > We don't _want_ to make a "product", because we can't support a > product. We make "bits and pieces" and let those with support staff > handle productizing it. > > Melanie > > Mark Malewski wrote: >> Diva, >> >> *>> It would just be nice to get everything integrated back into core (or >> as >>>> OpenSim modules). >>>* >> *>This would be terrible. * >> >> Diva, please explain WHY would having a working OpenSim distro be >> terrible? >> Having something that actually "works" is terrible? In my opinion, just >> the opposite is true. >> >> You can spend your whole life developing things (that no one actually >> uses, >> and that don't actually work or do much of anything, and that no one will >> ever use) or you can make a WORKING product that is usable, and that is >> EASY >> to use, and that people will use. >> >> You seem to prefer the latter. >> >> >> *> I think you, and maybe others here, may need to understand better this >>>concept of extensible systems. That's at the very core of OpenSim from >>>the beginning, even before I started contributing -- OpenSim is not an >>>application, it's a platform with which to build applications. >> * >> I think you need to sit down and understand the concept of "working >> product". You also need to stop confusing "extensible system" with "not >> working" product. >> >> PHP, and Apache are what I would consider "extensible systems". PHP is >> easily downloaded, and it works (out of the box). Yet it comes with many >> different modules (as part of the default distro) and those modules have >> all >> been thoroughly tested, and can easily be enabled by simply uncommenting >> out >> the module name in the default.ini file. >> > >> to include hooks and mechanisms for expanding/enhancing the system with >> new >> capabilities WITHOUT having to make major changes to the system >> infrastructure. >> >> OpenSim doesn't seem to be "extensible". OpenSim seems to be "broken". >> There is a big difference. Maybe your definition of "extensible" means >> that it requires a rocket scientist just to get the trunk to even compile >> (or even work), and takes hours and hours of debugging code, just to get a >> module to even work. That isn't my idea of "extensible". >> >> I understand over the past few months, the server infrastructure (and >> architecture) has been changing quite a bit. It's hard to even tell if >> ModRex (or any other modules) even work with the current OpenSim trunk (or >> latest build) at this point. >> >> The average layperson doesn't want to spend hours and hours trying to >> compile from source, or debugging code, or searching for plugins/modules >> that may (or may not) exist, and even worse many of them may not be >> updated, >> or may not even work with the current OpenSim as "core" evolves. Often >> times many of these modules are not updated, and most have no clue how to >> even build from source, and for this reason it might be good to just have >> VERY simple "turn-key" distributions available for download. (Stable >> releases) >> >> Similar to how RealXtend has done in the past. >> >> I supposed I could sit down and begin working on creating a fully >> configured >> VMWare image of OpenSim with various modules installed and configured, >> that >> people could easily download, and be up and running in a few minutes >> (without having to hunt for various modules, or applications), or sifting >> through outdated wiki pages trying to figure out how to even get started >> or >> even get up and running, but to be honest most people just want something >> VERY easy to use, VERY easy to setup, and would love a nice GUI interface >> (like WixTD, etc.) that they can use to administer the server, add users, >> etc. >> >> Most laypeople don't want to hire a software engineer, or a programmer, >> just >> to get OpenSim to compile, or even get a module working, or just to get >> OpenSim running on a machine. >> >> If I want to use a plugin with Firefox, I've NEVER had to compile or debug >> code. If I want to enable a PHP module, I've NEVER had to debug any code. >> Most modules are included in the default distro, and modules can easily >> be >> turned on and off, by simply "enabling" them in the default ini >> (configuration) file. >> >> In my opinion, you may be confusing "extensible system" as an excuse as to >> why nothing should work properly. >> >> In my opinion, EVERY single working module that exists for OpenSim should >> be >> included in the default distro (in the modules directory), and these >> modules >> should ALL be disabled by default, but can be easily enabled by simply >> uncommenting out ONE single line in the default.ini configuration file. >> >> Include EVERY single working module with the default OpenSim distro, so >> users have a list of default working modules that are regularly updated so >> that they actually work (and are not broken), so that when a stable >> release >> comes out, a user can just enable or disable whatever modules they wish to >> use (by uncommenting out a line or two in the default .ini configuration >> file) and those modules are in the modules directory, and can easily be >> enabled by just uncommenting out a single line in the default ini >> configuration file. >> >> The problem is, it seems like a herd of cats are headed in all opposite >> directions, and people really just want something that actually works. >> Diva, is that honestly too much to ask? >> >> There are Applications and there are Operating Systems. What do you call >> OpenSim? Is it an Application or an Operating System? (or is it >> neither?) >> >> When I say "works", I'm talking about someone can download OpenSim, and be >> up and running (designing things from within the OpenSim Application >> platform such as creating 3D content, in-world). Not sitting down and >> downloading source code, or attempting to figure out how to learn C# or >> C++ >> or how to write a module, just to get simple things running. >> >> The thing that made RealXtend so popular was that it was easy to use, and >> they had distros that were already setup and ready to use (even with a >> nice >> "beneath the sea" demo world as part of the distro). >> >> Keep in mind that most of the people interested in OpenSim as a 3D >> development platform are laypeople, and are graphics designers (and Second >> Life users) that are NOT Computer Science majors, and are not engineers, >> and >> really don't know ANY programming languages (some may know a bit of Java, >> or >> HTML, or LSL), but most don't even know C++ or C# nor would they have any >> idea how to even compile or build from source. They just want to use >> OpenSim to design 3D content, and create their own virtual world. >> >> Do you expect a web developer to know C? or C++? or C#? >> >> Try thinking of OpenSim as a "3D Web Server" for users (similar to >> Apache). >> Yes, Apache is extensible, and many modules can be written for Apache, >> but >> most of the common modules are already tested and included with the Apache >> distro. Modules are tested, and included with all the latest releases, >> and >> users can easily comment (or uncomment) out a single line in the default >> configuration file, and have the included modules working. >> >> So I believe the key to making OpenSim widely adopted as a "usable" >> platform >> for 3D developers, would be to make OpenSim easy to use (so that ANYONE >> can >> get up and running in less than 10 minutes). I believe every single >> tested >> module should be included with the default distro's. So that users can >> easily enable/disable whatever modules they want, and users know that the >> modules included with each distro have been tested, and are working >> modules. >> >> At this point in time, does ANYONE actually know what works, and what >> doesn't work? Do we actually have a working distro, with working modules >> (that have been tested to work) with an actual OpenSim release? >> >> Since 0.7 release is supposed to be coming out soon (in a week?) is there >> any way that we can stop development, and begin testing all the OpenSim >> modules, and add all the OpenSim modules (that have been tested and are >> working) to an OpenSim 0.7 release candidate? >> >> RealXtend does a very good job of doing this (with their old distros), but >> now that ModRex is integrated with OpenSim core, we're back to the drawing >> board again. >> >> If someone wants to enable ModRex, they should just be able to uncomment >> out >> a line in the default .ini file, and all the features of ModRex should >> work. >> If someone wants to enable currency, they should just be able to just >> uncomment out a line in the default .ini file, and now the currency module >> should be enabled. >> >> Why not make things SIMPLE and EASY to use? >> >> If someone wants to write a module (and wants it included with the OpenSim >> distro) then it needs to be tested, and once it has been tested (and >> confirmed to work) then it can be included with the OpenSim distro. This >> way at least we know what modules work (and are tested). >> >> OpenSim has evolved so quickly, that I'm not quite sure what modules even >> exist (or even work) at this point, and I have a few old distro's running, >> but I was too scared to even upgrade because everyone said that "OpenSim >> is >> currently broken" (due to all the latest changes) and people really just >> really want a WORKING distro (with working modules). >> >> I'm still running OpenSim 0.62 and ReX Server 0.4 on my local machines >> simply because it has been months where things have been completely broken >> (as OpenSim trunk would not even compile) and OpenSim has been making some >> backend changes and I'm still not even sure that ModRex/RealXtend even >> works >> since it has migrated over to OpenSim? >> >> I think your definition of "extensibility" and "extensible systems >> architecture" is different from mine. I believe in having something that >> ACTUALLY WORKS (out of the box), and extensibility means that new >> capabilities could EASILY be added without having to make changes to the >> system infrastructure. >> >> Your definition of "extensibility" seems to mean, nothing works, >> everything >> is broken, and you need to hire a software engineer just to get a few >> basic >> modules up and running. >> >> In my opinion, "extensibility" means that all the various modules would >> come >> by default with the default OpenSim distro, and they could easily be >> turned >> on (enabled) or turned off (disabled) by simply uncommenting a line in the >> default.ini file. Similar to PHP distro, or Apache server, or various >> other >> platforms. >> >> Either OpenSim is an Application or it's an Operating System. Since it >> doesn't run on bare metal, I certainly would NOT call it an Operating >> System, therefore I would consider it a software Application. I would >> consider OpenSim a 3D development platform. >> >> In my opinion, I would consider OpenSim a Server platform (software >> application) and you need both the OpenSim Server (platform) and a >> compatible Viewer to make OpenSim work. >> >> The problem is that OpenSim has evolved so much (and so quickly) that much >> of the Wiki documentation is outdated, no one is quite sure what even >> works >> at this point, and what doesn't work at this point. There is no list of >> recently "tested" modules (that are known to work with the current >> build/latest distro). >> >> Most "noobs" just really want a distro that they can easily download >> (maybe >> in a VMWare format) so they can just fire up a pre-configured image, and >> be >> up and running in minutes (instead of days or weeks). >> >> I'm willing to help test, and I'm willing to help with documentation, and >> I'm willing to even create "distros" that are easy to use (and that are >> tested and working) but it seems like nobody is working together. >> >> What if we just STOPPED developing, for just ONE week, and worked together >> on creating an actual distro? Just a working (and well tested) distro, >> that >> is thoroughly tested, that is STABLE, and that has all the OpenSim modules >> working with it? >> >> Then release it as a OpenSim 0.7 release. >> >> That's all I ask. Then after OpenSim 0.7 release candidate comes out (and >> it well tested, and all the modules from the OpenSim GForge are tested to >> work and be compatible with the 0.7 release, and then we wrap everything >> up, >> and release it as a working distro! >> >> Just halt development for 1 week, and just focus on bug fixes, and getting >> the modules to all work so we can just have a nice OpenSim 0.7 release >> candidate, with lots of working modules (that are all tested) and are >> included in the default distro. >> >> People can still choose what modules they wish to enable, but at least >> include all the known working modules with the default distro (or create a >> "vanilla" distro, and a "full distro" with the OpenSim 0.7 Release). That >> way one has the working modules, and the other doesn't have the working >> modules. >> >> But this way at least we can have an actual TESTED release candidate, that >> has all the working OpenSim modules (with updated documentation). >> >> I'm willing to help with documentation, and testing, but I just want to >> see >> an actual release candidate (with working modules) come out. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:03 PM, <d...@metaverseink.com> wrote: >> >>> Mark Malewski wrote: >>> > It would just be nice to get everything integrated back into core (or >>> > as >>> > OpenSim modules). >>> >>> This would be terrible. We're going in the opposite direction, which is >>> to have a minimal core and let people do their own extensions as they >>> wish, hopefully replacing the heck out of the reference implementations. >>> >>> I think you, and maybe others here, may need to understand better this >>> concept of extensible systems. That's at the very core of OpenSim from >>> the beginning, even before I started contributing -- OpenSim is not an >>> application, it's a platform with which to build applications. >>> >>> Some extenders of OpenSim may want to get together and try to make their >>> extensions work with each other. That's great and desirable. But let's >>> not prevent innovative ideas from emerging by throwing a massive >>> feature-full application out there as "OpenSim". >>> >>> Diva / Crista >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Opensim-dev mailing list >>> Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>> >> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Opensim-dev mailing list >> Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > _______________________________________________ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
