This discussion was moved from the PEDA forum.
Ian, You are welcome to extoll the benefits of other forums and make recommendations, but do not discourage members from discussing ANY technical EDA question on the PEDA forum regardless of software version.
It is a helpful comment to note that there might be a better forum for the asking of particular kinds of questions. I would suggest to the Administrator -- who is the Administrator? I could guess, but I might guess incorrectly -- that participants in the Forum not be discouraged from offering helpful advice.
At 02:53 PM 12/2/2003, Ian Wilson wrote:At 02:22 PM 2/12/2003 -0800, you wrote:At 01:57 PM 12/2/2003, Tony Karavidas wrote:<snip> Why are people asking DXP questions on the PEDA list? You'll probably get more answers on the DXP list. <snip>
Tony, this list is intended for discussion of all EDA technical questions including those of DXP.
Not all users of DXP are a member of the Protel run list, so discussions here may present unique solutions and points of view. Also, the discussion forums on this site do not have as many restrictions as the Protel run forum.
Yes - except there have already been quite a few examples of incomplete, incorrect, confusing ... answers due to people not clearly stating what version of Protel they are using.
This comment by Mr. Wilson is unquestionably true. However, it is also true that practice has been to allow users to ask any reasonably relevant questions on the Forum, and failure to specify version doesn't automatically mean that DXP questions should not be asked on the Forum.
I haven't been participating in the DXP Forum -- that will change, because I now have a DXP license -- so I don't know about restrictions. It has been my view, indeed, that the primary user forum should be independent. Independent, not only from Altium management, but also from autocratic operation by any individual or company. That would be the ideal. However, Techserv management of the Forum has generally been light-handed and thus there has been little reason to move major user support elsewhere. The protel-users list on yahoogroups has more than enough subscriber base to function when needed; it also is open to DXP questions. And there, also, one asking about DXP is likely to receive a suggestion to ask on the DXP forum.
First of all, the question WAS clearly identified as a DXP issue. Secondly, members have always needed to specify which software they are using whether its Autotrax, Adv PCB, EDA Client 3, P98, P99, P99SE, DXP or whatever. Its worked well enough over the past years. So what's new? Someone occasionally forgetting to specify a version is hardly reason enough to shun future discussions on the user forums.
I did not see Mr. Wilson's comment as "shunning" future discussions. Techserv administration is over-reacting in this case. It is simply enough that different points of view be represented, i.e., that DXP questions are welcome on the Forum *and* they may receive a more thorough response if asked on the Altium-run list. *And* users should remember to specify the version being used.
The welcome materials to the list would properly, in my view, explain the various lists available and their particular functions, and not just the lists operated by Techserv. That would represent true service to users.
Separate user forums for each software package would alleviate the problem of confusing the version but it presents others problems such as maintaining enough critical mass on each forum so the lesser used forums don't die.
This is probably a non-issue. If a version is not in substantial use, it doesn't matter if a list devoted to it dies; and if it does die, it is sufficient, for the occasional inquirer, that a forum does exist where users familiar with the old version may ask. This could be any of the forums (except DXP perhaps, if Altium moderates posts -- and if they do, one of my first steps on rejoining the DXP list might be to suggest that there is a better way, less likely to offend).
And what becomes of the issues that are cross-application or issues that don't neatly fit into a single category. The forums would quickly become a free for all and much worse off than before. Protel can easily have a DXP only forum because they simply don't support their past software.
This is misleading. Protel certainly supports 99SE. They still sell it! We have seen on the Forum, occasionally, when users don't sufficiently answer a question, an Altium employee pipe up. It is discouraged, probably because Altium doesn't want employees getting into flame wars, nor duplicating efforts on company time.
I didn't read Mr. Wilson as proposing some kind of restriction. That's why I think that the Administrator is over-reacting.
The answers on DXP issues here are not as complete (or as many) as those on the Altium Forum. I know I invest more time there than here.
Well, if users such as those on the PEDA forum have an incomplete or incorrect knowledge of DXP, isn't the PEDA forum a great place to educate them? That's why we run these forums! DXP discussions on the PEDA forum will be inferior and doomed if members get harangued every time they bring up a DXP issue.
I see only one person haranguing here, and it is not Mr. Wilson. He stated his point of view, fairly simply and cleanly, and what he wrote was quite clearly true. If he had said "Don't post DXP questions here," that would have been a very different matter. But he didn't.
It is nice that Protel finally introduced a permanent support forum. The user forums and the Protel forum complement each other well and I'd recommend using Protel's DXP forum. But do we want a Protel owned forum as our only source of support? If we're not going to discuss DXP on the user forums, then we might as well just shut them down now.
There has been plenty of discussion of DXP on the Forum and it will continue. This is not endangered by Mr. Wilson's post, not in the least.
If people post DXP issues here ...
...they should expect fewer answers, and no answers from Altium employees, than if they posted on the Altium forums.
The forums are publicized as USER forums and as such most members understand that they shouldn't expect support from Protel employees on the forums. The fact that these are user forums is their greatest asset. We get email after email from new members saying they get better and faster support on the user forums than from Protel. That situation will quickly change unless we discuss DXP as freely as any other issue.
That users are able to provide better support than Altium/Protel is well-known. However, the DXP list *is* a user support forum, the only difference is that it is owned by Altium and the Forum is owned by Techserv. In my view, it's better if it is owned by the users as an association, which is why, while protel-users is managed by me (as the "owner" as far as yahoogroups.com is concerned), I've made it very clear that it and all the protel-users lists on yahoogroups are subject to association authority, and I have on at least one occasion been over-ruled by the association. I hold the title in trust for the association, which can direct at any time that it be held elsewhere.
Having separate lists for various versions, actually, makes a great deal of sense. A DXP user is likely to be disinterested in most posts on the Forum, and my guess is that many are unsubscribing.
My own concept was to have many lists, with newcomers being automatically subscribed to *all* of them, i.e., join one, you join them all. And then you can unsubscribe from them individually. Many specialized lists have very little traffic, so someone who is generally interested can subscribe to all of them, and one who really doesn't want to read about, for example, Protel resales or Association business -- or Off-Topic posts -- can simply and quickly subscribe to fewer of the family of lists.
The OT Forum was a direct duplication of an already-existing protel-users-misc list on yahoogroups.... The problem with the OT Forum is that discussions that begin on the main list lose their legitimate audience when being moved to the OT Forum, since *most* Forum subscribers are not subscribed to the OT Forum. It solves one problem but is not satisfactory in another important respect. Many of these "off-topic" discussions are indeed matters of general interest to Protel users. Like this one, for example. (and the subscription base for protel-users-misc is very small and traffic next to zero).
(the protel-users lists do not have an automatic subscription policy; it is an idea I have proposed but certainly is not something I would implement without consensus.)
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