We had multiple meetings to find a solution to solve the problems
between the OpenWrt and the LEDE project and to discuss a possible
merge. Everyone with commit access to LEDE and all OpenWrt core
developers were invited to these meetings. We had productive and
friendly discussions about the problems and our goals.
To be more open and to involve the wider community in these discussions
we would like to publish the meeting minutes from the meetings.
The first in person meeting took place in Berlin at the OpenWrt Summit
on 13. October 2016, but no one took any minutes so we do not have
anything to publish.
The second meeting was an audio conference on 5. November 2016 and
Florian took minutes which are attached to this mail.
At the third audio conference meeting on 3. December 2016 Jow took
minutes which are also attached to this mail.
The last meeting took place on 19. December 2016.
These minutes are representing the current state of the discussions and
are not PR polished.
We agreed on giving Imre, Zoltan and Luka commit access to the LEDE
repository so they can migrate changes they care about and which are not
in LEDE, from the OpenWrt repository to the LEDE repository. We also
encouraging everyone who sent a patch, which got merged into OpenWrt and
which is not in LEDE to send it also to LEDE for integration.
It is still not decided that both project will finally merge and we
haven't decided on the name to use, which parts of the infrastructure
and many other things. In general we are agreeing on many parts and I am
looking forward to a good merged ending for all of us.
[please fill in missing stuff]
1) Initiate vorting on granting voting rights to wiki people -> Mail will be
sent tomorrow
2) Ethical guidelines on the usage of project mail addresses based on Debian
- who?
- when?
3) Agreed LEDE work flow:
- Patches through mailing lists
- Patches through pull requests
- Changes aggregated, shaped up in developers own staging tree(s)
- Criticial fixes may go directly into the tree (typo, brick-fixes etc.)
4) Current OpenWrt work flow:
- Patchwork is lingering atm
- Main source are Github PRs
- Defer decision on whose infra to use until later
5) LEDE ticket/bug tracking explained
- bugs.lede-project.org
- github issues disabled
- no formalized process for ticket timeout
- atm. manual closing after like 4 weeks
- formalized/automatic process can be established if needed
6) Summarized LEDE infrastructure
- 3 Hetzner servers (2x EX40, 1x EX51), about 150 Euro/Month
- Digital Ocean Hosting Credits $3000 / Year, currentling running four
small instances
for forum, wiki, git and utility stuff
- Domain about 20 Euro/Year
- Infra paid by Felix (1x EX40), by John (1x EX40), by Jo (1x EX51, Domain)
7) Summarized OpenWrt infrastructure
- drone.io - backed by one server operated by Luka (?)
- [discussion about insufficient resources for full coverage]
- Zoltan hosts: buildbot, wiki on virtual servers at a private company
(would take 80-100EUR/month if it would be from the market)
- Imre operates server sponsored by Lantiq: 640GB disks? Monthly hosting
costs TBD with Imre
- [discussion on build CI capabilities, pro/cons of buildbot]
- release manual is needed for lede
8) on releases
- releases need to be automated
- release procedure manual needs to be written
- volunteers needed for backporting
9) on naming / domain
- LEDE is willing to hand over the domain to 3rd party
- using OpenWrt.org would require it to be handed over to an independant
party like SPI
- lede-project.org as well
- John, Jo are willing to donate money for covering domain expenses during
the next years
- PROPOSAL:
- Domain holder (SPI, SLFC etc.) shall only react to domain change
request publically
communicated on the projects mailing lists
- John suggested to have name server maintenance at domain holder as
well
- Imre wants to stay with SPI
10) on server access
- distribute root access to 4+ people
- avoid trust issues by avoiding "secrets" on the servers like personal
mail boxes
- [John and Jo explained current server admin model]
11) summarizing LEDE position
- grant repository push access to openwrt developers
- grant sserver root access to openwrt developers
- merge outstanding openwrt changes to lede tree
- use common codebase for openwrt and lede
- John explains that there is no real role distinction, there should be a
rough consent
among *still active* contributors
- Thrive for broad agreement, resolve issues through voting
12) summarizing openwrt position
- stance regarding repository usage changed since last meeting, lede shall
notify the
community about that as well
- project name ("flag to sail under") should be sorted out before deciding
on repository
situation
- Felix argues that common tree benefits anyone, even without deciding rest
- Question about platform/tree maintainer role models
- Luka wonders how the non-maintainer model will work out in practice
- John and Felix propose a simple model: trivial changes right away,
possibly
controversial ones discussed
- John proposes a simple RFC patch series to the list if unsure
- Zoltan worries about unsolicited breaking changes
- John responds that in such a case, such changes are reverted and
offending developer
is asked to discuss such things in the future
- Felix argues that fixed responsibilities are hindering patch merging
due to idle wait time
- Jo explained that fixing up imperfect patches / PRs in own staging
tree often helps in
merging stuff that would otherwise get lost
- Zoltan wonders if this improves contribution quality over time
- John says sometimes / sometimes not, mostly yes
- [John and Jo shared some anecdotal examples]
- Luka asks about forum / wiki / tracker etc.
- John and Luka consider Trac as closed / archived
- Imre wonder if there's much of a remerge if OpenWrt just gives up own
structures and
wonders about the apparent reverse of direction since the last call
- John argues that decision on name / identity is different from
discussion on direction
- Felix points out that there are different opinions within the project
and that we still
try to find a common ground
- Felix hints at propable misunderstanding in his ability to represent
the entire project
- [more discussion on offloading work to contributors, on reducing the
decision load on
specific person]
- John shares experience with wiki and forum, voluntary work
- Felix seconded that there's been no problems with this approach so far
13) conclusion / move forward
- Imre? agrees on moving forward with handing out push access to the LEDE
tree to the
OpenWrt developers
- John and Felix note
- First step:
- Agreement on using the LEDE tree as a starting point for any future
potential merge effort
- OpenWrt developers get commit access to that tree
- All OpenWrt commits that are not in LEDE yet get evaluated and merged
where it makes sense.
- Zoltan wants the CC branch untouched, mutual agreement
OpenWrt / LEDE follow up meeting
1. Results from meeting at prpl OpenWrt summit
Agreed upon:
- merging back together
- using OpenWrt as the merged back project name
- discuss using the LEDE codebase moving forward (undecided but likely)
- most of the problems with OpenWrt were lack of documentation on processes
(voting, governance, etc..)
- have enouh people have access to the infrastructure to make it reliable and
fault tolerant
- wait for the next meeting to communicate publicly about the meetings we just
had, just to give a chance for people who could not participate today (Nov 5th)
to chime in and voice concerns, by the next meeting we should have a clear plan
to move forward
Not yet agreed upon, still being discussed:
- LEDE gives voting rights to other people who are not developers, who are
they? Needs to be documented and clarify what people can vote on, question as
to whether these people should be part of the merging back together process?
- email addresses? Imre would like to keep his @openwrt.org for open source
contributions. Either we can reinstate the @openwrt.org email address for all
developers, existing addresses could keep being used, but we would not
necessarily give new addresses? Existing emails addresses should keep working
for incoming emails (avoid bounces)
Up in the air:
- workflow between LEDE and OpenWrt? Using Github to gather pull requests, but
not use the merge pull request feature of Github, have staging trees for
queuing changes, and then merge into the main tree
- codebase merging strategy: try to get OpenWrt merged into LEDE, and reach out
to the community to help resolve the missing bits
- branches like BB and CC, can live in branches in the same repository, but
their history would most likely diverge from the repository's master branch at
that point. There is a request to make a point release of CC including security
fixes
- commits that did change the branding/copyright: it all depends on which name
we pick as the merge back project name, and just make sure that we "revert" or
maintain these changes
- FSC (conservancy.org) vs. SPI ownership of the trademark, Imre is in favor of
using the SPI, even though they did not do anything for OpenWrt, but they were
not really asked either. FSC is capable of taking care of the full transfer
from SPI to themselves. We need to audit carefully what the FSC offer, how they
would represent us, and what are the downsides. Needs more thought as to what
to do here. Gregers is stepping down from primary contact to secondary point of
contact. Imre would have access to more complete information about the SPI;
costs, legal aspects, etc.
Proposals:
- forget about the Designated Driver release, and just do "something else".
LEDE did not really have a DD release within LEDE. We should stop doing a named
released (Felix) and just go with dates. Imre sees things differently and
things that codenames of releases stick around, so a named release is kind of
helpful. Felix suggests that for the few upcoming releases, we have a set of
names that are readily usable as a release name, such that the name selection
in itself does not delay the release. Essentially Felix suggests we break from
the cocktail names pattern to have a wider choice of option. Luka floated the
idea of using uptimes, because, well it's a reboot, right? Felix insists that
we should really not be dragged down by the release name selection, because
releasing is more important than choosing the name
- meet in person more often, which should help avoid the issues we are
resolving at the moment, so we can celebrate with cocktails every releases!!!
- Imre proposes to extend the trademark to be international. Felix suggests
that anything happens between now and the merge back timeframe, there should be
a public communication about it, because it affects both projects and the
future of the rebooted project
- Felix proposes that we have the OpenWrt people get access to the LEDE
project, and vice versa, such that we can create a smooth transition. This
should help with the non infrastructure related part of the bring back
together. There is not expectation to make it happen right now but it is
something that is both desirable and not controversial
Timeframe:
- target january to merge back together and have time to resolve differences
between the teams
Possible sources of controversy:
- what to do with the OpenWrt server: Imre is fine giving access to the box,
but there are some legal concerns (e.g: who (co)owns the server). Imre is not
comfortable with giving root access with someone he, or others have not known
for some time. We should try to cover a good timespane that covers multiple
timezones, both Europe, and the USA (no developer in Asia). Imre proposed to
give Florian adminstrative access to the box since he is located in America.
- Imre brought the topic of what needs to be kept public and what should be
private, and should we keep some kind of database of who works for who/what to
avoid stepping on each others toes. Regardless of that part that is more
"project management" oriented, we should have a way to reach out to each other
(e.g: phone numbers, location etc.) but we should have some kind of way to know
that if service X is down, we can reach out to specific people, using specific
communication means (e.g: no text messages after 2AM etc.). Felix is fine with
that idea, but we should keep most (all?) of the project discussions public by
default
TODO:
- Gather a list of people with voting rights -> felix
- Define an ethical guideline on how to post using his/her @openwrt.org email
and make sure that this is adopted. Ethical guideline should be put in a way
that is clear, and easy to find, and can reference other things, like the
trademark policy
- Define a general developer guideline that details how the representation of
the project is going to happen (using, or not, @openwrt.org email), how
trademark applies etc.
- Ask people who could not attend if they agree with the LEDE workflow, and if
so, can we utilize it
- Setup a separate/subsequent meeting to discuss adminstrative rights on the
@openwrt.org infrastructure and resolve potential conflicts between LEDE/OpenWrt
- Ask Eric to add Hungarian and Croatian dial-in numbers, Imre indicated that
Gotomeeting has numbers in all countries, so it's just a matter of updating
Eric's account
- Hauke: create a duddle link
Next meeting date:
- proposal: November 21st
Done:
- trademark policy is already available: https://openwrt.org/trademark.php
OpenWrt/LEDE meeting #3 notes
Date: 12/19/2016
Attendees: Hauke, Zoltan, John, Felix, Florian, Ted, luka, hans, mathias,
jonas, matthias,
John started giving the list of "conditions" that had been asked for from LEDE,
and Zoltan did the same thing for OpenWrt.
Imre has been writing a developper code of conduct, and wanted to talk to Mike.
Zoltan indicated he would like to see a documentation on the web about the LEDE
workflow, as well as a list of people with voting right (currently being
migrated to the new LEDE wiki). In particular, are there any people who have
higher voting rights than other (if that exists). That is not the case, nobody
in LEDE has special voting powers, and voting is used as a last resort to
solving problems. General idea is really to solve problems by communicating and
not resort to that.
LEDE rules: https://lede-project.org/rules
Action items:
- document the LEDE workflow
- propose the OpenWrt developer code of conduct
- talk to Mike Baker
- prepare a list of preriquisites from OpenWrt towards LEDE
From last meeting:
- send public keys to get commit access and merge the two trees
send keys to myself (thess) or jow or john
- re-iterate the merge should be a merge, and not keeping LEDE as bleeding edge
and OpenWrt as release
Development documentation:
https://lede-project.org/docs/guide-developer/the-source-code#staging_trees
Open topics:
- infrastructure: mailing-lists, wiki, bugtracker, git trees, forum,
rsync/mirror, website, DNS,
- trademark ownership
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