Hi Tom, Contracts not signed but I believe there is a proposal that has an allowance for 8 or 10 hours of testing beyond the restore time with extra charges for running longer. Oh, and I did manage to get them to include a place to collect archived redo logs (which were originally going to be collected at that out-of-favor datacenter I'm stationed at). Sounds like I need to avoid any solution that might require any Oracle software for this at the DR end.
As far as how long we would need to run at the DR site...hmmm...working with that 10 day number and guessing that it would take a really major hit on the corporate datacenter (meaning massive physical damage) to move all services to the DR site... My WAG at this would be 1 to 3 days to build up the environment at the DR site and a minimum of a week to get the corporate datacenter running again. And this is really optimistic since "the plan" has the corporate technical staff at the DR site getting things going. So in reality there could easily be a weeks delay before anyone (outside their VAR) is onsite picking up the pieces. So I think we would easily go beyond that 10 day number. This is just speculation at this point... Kip PS: I think we all know about accepting "free" legal advice. I think your point is well taken, though. I've been told that there is some statistic that says the likelihood that you would use a DR site is very, very small. You not use it for just any ol' hiccup. |Kip, |in your situation (as I understand it), I think would fall into the |following scenario: |Don't ask and don't tell. |clearly, you are not intending on running your production system at your |data recovery site. your intent is to use the site to (as you said): test |recovery to make sure it can work - and - when necessary, use it to rebuild |your database. (how long would the database run on this site until you can |rebuild your server?) |now, back to my "Don't ask and don't tell". |if you ask Oracle if you need a license - can we all guess what they will |say? |"Of *course* you should pay us for this." |but realistically, I wouldn't even tell them about it because your intent is |not to defraud them out of money. |listen to me providing legal advice! I am not a lawyer, but I play one on |TV. |hope this helps. |Tom Mercadante |Oracle Certified Professional |-----Original Message----- |Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 12:40 PM |To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L |Hi, |I've missed some of this thread so apologies if this has been touched on |already. The info-from-Oracle below refers to Backup/Failover/Standby. |Backup : We're OK. |Failover: Hmm. Tru64 cluster. Think we're OK based on what I read... |Standby : I was shot down on this one because the DR site that would have | been used has political problems with corporate plus there was |the | perception that ongoing costs would be too high to warrant it. | Long story so I'll stop... |Which leads me to my question: what if DR is to be at Sungard or IBM or |elsewhere and the recovery system won't actually exist (ie: this is not a |standby solution) until there is a disaster or when the recovery process is |being tested. BTW they are assuming 1 day to reconstruct production (I |think |this is incredibly optimistic). Maybe the stuff below is clear to others |but...does my company have a licensing issue with this direction that they |don't know about? |Kip Bryant ||Tony, ||Good to see your fingerprints here! ||I had always gone on the theory that I would need at least two of the ||licenses, one for production and one for the standby server. I hadn't ||thought about one for the DR site, on the theory, that since DR was up ||and running ONLY when production was not, it was the same "software". I ||had had that information from my Oracle sales reps as well. ||Now it seems I'll have to go back to my IT operations people and have ||them verify that we are in compliance with the licensing. Or that they ||are ready to fight it. We do have an overall company license (Sony is a ||fairly large user) so I don't know how that affects our licensing as ||well. ||I hadn't realized that as an Oracle DBA I also had to be a lawyer! ||Rachel ||--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ||> Hi All ||> ||> For those sites with either a standby, DR or failover database, ||> the following information is very important to you. You could be in ||> breach of Oracle's Licensing agreement and could cost you $100,000s ||> if not millions $$ ||> ||> (Read the summary at the end if you want to skip the details) ||> ||> In the last issue of Select, I wrote that with Oracle's new ||> Failover policy you now need not purchase two sets of Oracle licences ||> (one for the production server and the other for the Standby server) ||> if the standby server was not activated for more than 10 days in a ||> calender year. ||> ||> This was based on the following information I received ||> FAILOVER POLICY ||> ||> Oracle recognizes that customers may require very infrequent and ||> limited use ||> of their failover server. To address this use, we are modifying the ||> current ||> failover policy, which currently requires a full use of the Database ||> on any ||> failover server. Effective today, Oracle allows Oracle Database ||> licensed ||> users to load the database in main memory on an unlicensed spare ||> computer ||> for up to a total of ten separate days in any given calendar year. ||> Any use ||> beyond the right granted in the previous sentence must be licensed ||> separately. ||> ||> ||> ||> ||> ||> So, in this instance if you have DataGuard, it implies that ||> failing over to the 2nd box while the primary is down is OK ||> with one license. Right? WRONG. ||> ||> Since the article, Oracle has come out with more clarifications ||> as a lot of people were querying about the definitions and ||> legalities. ||> ||> The confusion is with the definition of STANDBY vs FAILOVER. ||> ||> Here is an extract of a correspondence from Oracle: ||> There have been a number of changes recently to our policies and ||> licencing requirements for backup/standby databases. This email is ||> to clarify the new policies. ||> ||> The following is on page 19 of the current Software Investment Guide, ||> which can be downloaded from eSource and oracle.com: ||> ||> Backup/Failover/Standby - Oracle differentiates between 3 methods of ||> database recovery: ||> Backup - In this type of recovery, database files of the primary ||> database are stored on tape media. In this type of environment, ||> Oracle permits customers to store a back up copy of the database data ||> on storage devices, such as tapes, without purchasing additional ||> licenses. ||> Failover - In this type of recovery, nodes are configured in ||> "cluster;" the first installed node acts as a primary node. If the ||> primary node fails, one of the nodes in the cluster acts as the ||> primary node. In this type of environment, Oracle permits licensed ||> Oracle Database customers to run the Database on an unlicensed spare ||> computer for up to a total of ten separate days in any given calendar ||> year. Any other use requires the environment to be fully licensed. ||> Additionally, the same metric must be used when licensing the ||> databases in a failover nvironment. ||> Standby - In this type of recovery, a copy of the primary database is ||> maintained on a separate server at all times. These systems are ||> configured for disaster recovery purposes. If the primary database ||> fails, the standby database is activated to act as the new primary ||> database. In this environment, both the primary and the standby ||> databases must be fully licensed. Additionally, the same metric must ||> be used when licensing the databases in a standby environment. ||> You should note from the above that these are Oracle's definitions, ||> and your customer may have a different understanding of the terms ||> backup, failover and standby. The important concept is the 3 ||> different methods of recovery - offline storage, clustered nodes ||> operating on a Storage Array Network, and a copy of the database ||> maintained on a separate server. ||> The offline storage (Backup) does not require additional licences. ||> The clustered nodes (Failover) do not require additional licences if ||> the spare node is used for no more than ten separate days per ||> calendar year. ||> Where a copy of the database is maintained on a separate server ||> (Standby), that server must be licenced as though it were a ||> production server. If the production server is licenced by ||> Processor, the standby server must also be licenced by Processor. If ||> the production server is licenced by Named User Plus, the number of ||> Named User Plus licences must cover at least the minimum licencing ||> requirement for both production and standby servers. The minimum is ||> 25 Named User Plus per processor. ||> Recovery systems that fall into the Failover category include Oracle ||> Failsafe, Veritas Cluster Server, IBM HACMP, Sun Cluster, HP Service ||> Guard and Microsoft MSCS. ||> ||> Recovery systems that fall into the Standby category include Oracle ||> Data Guard and remote 'mirroring' solutions such as EMC SRDF, Veritas ||> Volume Replicator and Sun StorEdge. ||> ||> I attach some slides which provide further clarification. Note that ||> on the 'Licencing Rules' slide we define our licencing as it was pre ||> September 2002, and as it is now post September 2002, so please don't ||> confuse the two. Also note that these slides are labelled Oracle ||> Internal Confidential - they are for your education and not for ||> giving to customers. The Software Investment Guide is the ||> documentation we give to customers on our policies. ||> ||> If you have any questions on this material please contact me. ||> ||> NAME DELETED ||> I think that stinks. And Stink big time. The big O is not going to ||> win ||> this one. Why should you pay for two sets of Oracle S/W if your DR ||> site is never used. ||> And when it is used, the primary is dead anyway. ||> So you only have one copy running at any one time. ||> ||> For detail information, goto: ||> ||> http://www.oracle.com/corporate/pricing/index.html?sig.html ||> http://www.oracle.com/corporate/pricing/index.html?presentations.html ||> ||> Have a read in the SIG (software Investment Guide), page 20. ||> http://www.oracle.com/corporate/pricing/sig.pdf ||> ||> NOW. I have legal advice from legal counsel that you are NOT ||> in breach if you are in Australia because of the following: ||> ||> http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca1968133/s47c.html ||> Point (1) and point (2) ||> ||> I would like to know what you think about this and if you disagree ||> with the policy, to take it to your Oracle rep, User Group ||> representatives, ||> IOUG-A board or send me your comments. There is a international ||> committee ||> representing the Americas, EMEA and Asia consisting of Oracle users ||> that is assisting Oracle with their pricing policies. I will be ||> collating ||> comments and case studies for them to review. ||> ||> SUMMARY ||> ||> If you are licensed for Oracle on your Production server and you have ||> a standby server and/or a DR site that uses filesystem replication ||> eg EMC, SAN replication, Veritas Volume Replicator, NetApps ||> replication or ||> even Oracle DataGuard, you MUST purchase THREE sets of Licences. ||> Production Server, Standby server & DR server. ||> ||> Why pay for Oracle licences for a server that is not started ||> up/active or ||> in used? ||> ||> Am I missing something or something is really screwed up here. ||> ||> ||> PS: The posting from Jay Hostetter" ||> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ||> Subject: Oracle pricing ||> Dated: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 ||> with regards to the example in the SIG (Software Investment ||> Guide), ||> http://www.oracle.com/corporate/pricing/sig.pdf pg 15 ||> of the Warehouse with 15 Temp sensors, 30 forklifts ||> and 400 forklift drivers requires you to buy a licence for ||> 415 user licences. ||> ||> ta ||> tony ||> ||> _____ ________ / ____|Tony Jambu, Database&Web Consultant ||> /_ _ /_ __ / |Wizard Consulting Pty Ltd ||> /(_)/ )(_/ \_/(///(/_)/_( |IOUG's Select Asia-Pacific Tech. Editor ||> \_______/ |EMAIL: TJambu @ wizard.cx (REMOVE ||> Spaces from email ) ||> ----------------------------|PHONE: +61-419-TJAMBU(852628) ||__________________________________________________ ||Do you Yahoo!? ||Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. ||http://mailplus.yahoo.com ||-- ||Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net ||-- ||Author: Rachel Carmichael || INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ||Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com ||San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services ||--------------------------------------------------------------------- ||To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message ||to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in ||the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L ||(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may ||also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). |-- |Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net |-- |Author: | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com |San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services |--------------------------------------------------------------------- |To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message |to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in |the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L |(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may |also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). |-- |Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net |-- |Author: Mercadante, Thomas F | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com |San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services |--------------------------------------------------------------------- |To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message |to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in |the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L |(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may |also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services --------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
