Salam semua, Nk masukan subjek JAVA Programing pun panel MQA ckp, itu terlalu tinggi utk student diploma, so camane erkk..
On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Mohd Rizal Mohd Shahari <rizal...@gmail.com>wrote: > I think we should invite MQA people or the guy who responsible > drafting the document to be Open Education Council (OEC) member :) > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Tajul Azhar bin Mohd Tajul Ariffin > <pislissnif...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I think MQA is not under Ministry of Education. > > It is corporate agency that handles all qualification of Universities. In > the government agency hieracry, MQA sit under Ministry of Higher Education > (Kementerian Pengajian Tinggi). > > There is a few cases whereby certain courses not been certified not > because of the syllabus, but because of management of universities not > applying for certification from MQA. > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device via Vodafone-Celcom Mobile. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Boh Yap <bhy...@gmail.com> > > Sender: osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com > > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 08:54:40 > > To: <osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com>; <pytho...@googlegroups.com> > > Reply-To: osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com > > Subject: [osdcmy] Why our Unis turn out such poor quality IT grads. - > long rant > > > > hi all, > > > > here's another rant, its directed at our Educational system, but done > > in a less brutal way than the 'last' nuclear exchange between Red and > > Rafe ;-) Sabar guys you both got your points, .... > > > > Have a read and pls comment... > > > > Critique of MQA Computing Program Document > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Ah, I make a bold claim, I finally may have figured out a possible > > reason why our august Universities produce thousands of graduates that > > are 'unemployable' as far as IT is concerned. The blame must solely > > rest on the shoulders of the MQA (Malaysia Qualifications Agency) > > under the Min. of Edu. Its also known as LAN (Lembaga Accredition > > Negara) > > > > http://www.mqa.gov.my/ > > > > This 'organ' sets the 'standards'(sic) for all HEPs(Higher Education > > Providers) in the country, both local and foreign. Yes, even if MIT or > > Harvard were to set up here, their 'standards' will be governed by > > them! And it covers not only IT, but also Bitotechnology, Medicine and > > Health Sc. etc.... > > > > I downlaoded a PDF on the subject area of Computing: > > http://www.mqa.gov.my/garispanduan/ENGLISH%20Computing_6.1.10_doc.pdf > > > > This does not cover all parts of IT, Netwk Engin.(SysAdmin) etc.. is > > handled by other docs. > > (so this rant may not apply to the Netwk Engineers, SysAdmins etc..) > > > > But it covers all aspects of higher edu for 'Computing': > > > > - the type of courses and professionals it develops, presumably > > for our HR needs... > > > > - the qualifiactions required to enter and awarded upon completion, > > > > - the 'programme objectives' what the course try to achive, the > > type fo skills > > grads. will have > > > > - what the syllabus should cover > > > > - the accredition, way marks/grading are accorded > > > > - Learning Outcomes, what skills/knowledge the grads. will be > > equipped with (!?) > > > > note: > > Compared to a similar document for BioTech and Engineering, the > curriculum > > seeems to be far less detailed when compared to IT. A lot of freedom > seems > > to be given to instituitions to determine their own. Why then should > our > > industry be so closely scrutinised? > > > > As a quick summary, here are my interpretations, I may be wrong, and > > if so soemone please prove me wrong! > > > > It seems 'programming skills' are not required for BSc grads, but are > > required for Diploma grads WTF, !? (Learning Outcomes, Diploma, pg > > 14,i). It seems 'programming' is considered a lowly skill suitable for > > Diploma holders, whereas BSc grads are suppose to be System Analysts > > and and Proj. Managers!? And BSc grads are suppose to have > > 'entrepeneurial' skills (pg15 Generic Learning Outcomes, vi) - so they > > can be the next Facebook I suppose... > > > > If this is true, it sets a dangerous and unreal expectations for the > > students! No wonder most Comp. Sc. grads. don't want to do programming > > or can't code! And they want to be SAs and PMs? No Way! Without > > knowing or having done extensive programming, they won't have the > > depth of knowledge to manage progrmmers, let alone win their respect. > > They won't be able to evaluate the complexity and timeline required > > without understanding the tools or its methodology. Worst still, they > > will end up making the technical decisions, instead of the programmers > > that are actually doing the work! (Does a construction site-supervisor > > tell his carpenter what tools he should use? NO!) It just means they > > make 'dumb' managers which the coders can fool! > > > > Also they (grads) probably think they don't need to do programming, > > and they can straightaway be PMs and SAs.... but the market and > > employers certainly don't agree! > > > > Holy Dilbert! The fact is that our Unis are producing PHBs (Pointy > > Haired Bosses) the clueless yet arrogant boss of Dilbert in the comic > > strip! > > > > Haris(OSDC) was trying to form a committee to try and introduce FOSS > > into Education. I would think the work should start with the MQA. Also > > who are the people that make such major decisions that affect the > > future of our nation, are they qualified? Do they have industry > > experiance? Are they free of vested interested? Are there HW or SW > > vendors among them? > > > > I think most of you who are serious about parctising IT and developing > > the SW industry in Malaysia will agree with me that some of these > > decisions are seriously flawed. > > I certainly hope that such errors in judgement are due to the fact > > that they have been misinformed, and HOPEFULLY they will allow us, > > members of the FOSS community to provide an alternative POV. > > > > > > Below are the rest of my rant.... based on sections of the document, > > you may have to read it to get the full details, I have included some > > quotes taken from the docuemnt, they are like this "....", the rest is > > my inputs. Also those sections 'notes:' > > > > I would welcome all comments, especially from the authority concerned, > > lets have a healthy discussion on this. And no F words ;-) > > > > > > Intro: > > ------ > > No date as to when the docuemnt was drafted. The file name carries > > a probable date, but > > the document itself does not have a date, change-history or list > > of authors, strange! The BioTech > > document has all these! > > It acknoledges that Computing moves at a amazing pace, yet if rate > > of change is so critical, > > this document should have a date and be revised at regular > > intervals by 'authorised experts'. > > > > It defines the "Programme Standards for Computing" for the following > > certification levels: > > Certificate (Malaysian Qualifications Framework MQF Level > 3), > > Diploma (MQF Level 4), > > Bachelor’s Degree (MQF Level 6), > > Master’s Degree (MQF Level 7) and Doctoral Degree (MQF Level > 8) > > > > Objectives (Pg 6) > > ---------- > > "These standards are designed to encourage diversity of approach > > within a framework > > that is compatible with the national and global human resource > > requirements and the > > socio-economic needs. They cannot be seen as a syllabus and no > > form of prescription > > is intended in the amount of time devoted to each component or the > > order in which > > the material is presented. Higher Education Providers are expected > > to combine, > > teach and assess the subject matter creatively > > " > > > > "The development and implementation of this Programme Standards is > > to ensure that the > > graduates meet the professional requirements and expectations in their > > respective fields. Higher Education Providers must take cognisance of > > the rapidly evolving subject matter and introduce effective and > > sustainable programme improvement. In doing so, the providers should > > also ensure that the graduates obtain the necessary skills to function > > effectively > > " > > > > comment: > > from what I have been told, the HEPs (Higher Edu Providers) > > have to stick > > to this pretty closely. Either that or I have been misled, and > > academia were > > too lazy to create their own syllabus and just accepted what was > pushed > > upon them. > > > > Coverage: (pg 10) > > --------- > > I am just looking at the BSc degree programs.... but theres all the > rest, > > from Certificate to PHd! > > > > It defines curricular and standards for 4 professional fields: > > and with its definition... > > > > Computer Sc > > ------------ > > Produce Computer Scientists who can work in a wide range > > of fields from > > theorectical research, SW development and drive > > innovation. It offers a > > wide foundation to allow studens to adapt to new > > technologies and ideas. > > Includes web technologies, Robotics, Computer Vision, > > Intelligent Systems(?), > > Bioinformatics. > > > > note: > > to 'innovate, research' is a tall order, it means > > going beyond what > > others has done and hence means you must already have > > a very strong > > foundation. Standing on the shoulders of giants requre > > that you are > > familiar with the giant! > > > > Information System > > ------------------- > > Integrate IT with business processes to provide solutions > > for entreprises. > > View technology as a means of generating(?), processing nd > > distribution of > > information for (entrprises, gov...?). Practioneers are to > > be familiar with > > specific applications, database apps., spreadsheet Off the > Shelf SW. > > > > Then goes and talks about Payroll Accountg, Invrntory > > Systems, etc... > > > > Note: > > no mention of ERP systems (hey Red1, comment!), > > Business Intelligence (Raja?), > > how about mobile-computing and the role it an play for > > entreprise, > > NO FOSS! > > > > Information Technology > > ----------------------- > > Graduates are trained to focus on application, deployment, > > and configuration > > needs (of IT) for organisations and people over a wide > > spectrum. They are > > responsible for planning, infrastructure, selecting HW and > > SW, and integrating > > configuring and customizing these systems to meet business > needs. > > > > note: > > Personel here play a major role in selecting HW & SW > > and hence impacts the > > success of FOSS. > > > > SW Engineering > > --------------- > > Discipline of designing, developing and maintaining SW > > that is reliable and > > efficient. It must be affordable to develop and maintain > > and take into account > > issues like scalability and reliablity in safety > > (mission-critical?) > > applications. > > > > "Software Engineering programmes produce graduates who can > > understand user > > requirements and develop software systems. Software > > Engineers are expected > > to develop systematic models and reliable techniques for > producing > > high-quality software on time and within a budget." > > > > note: > > reliable, efficient, affordable, scalable, relaible, > > mission critical, > > all this means FOSS right? ;-) > > MQA needs to be enlightened about this! > > > > Programme Objectives (Bachelor, pg 10) > > -------------------------------------- > > Generic Programme Aims for a Bachelor’s Degree are to prepare > graduates who > > i. possess skills for lifelong learning, research and career > > development, > > ii. have communication, team, leadership and interpersonal skills, > and > > aware of the social, ethical and legal responsibilities, and > > iii. have entrepreneurial skill and a broad business and real > > world perspective. > > > > note: > > to produce entrepreneurs, it would be helpful to equip them > > with fianancial > > and business skills. I don't see this being done anywhere. > > Comp Sc guys are > > bad at writing Biz Plans and filling out MDEC forms ;-) > > > > Subject to the specialisation/major/minor in a particular Bachelor’s > > Degree and its > > nomenclature, the Specific Programme Aims for the four (4) disciplines > > identified in this > > Programme Standards are: > > A. Computer Science > > The Programme should prepare graduates who > > i. possess fundamental knowledge, principles and skills in > > Computer Science, > > ii. have strong analytical and critical thinking skills to > > solve problems > > by applying knowledge, principles and skills in Computer > > Science, and > > iii. possess theoretical computing knowledge in analysing, > > modelling, designing, > > developing and evaluating computing solutions. > > > > B. Information Systems > > The Programme should prepare graduates who > > i. possess fundamental knowledge, principles and skills in > > Information Systems, > > ii. have strong analytical and critical thinking skills to > > solve problems by > > applying knowledge, principles and skills in Information > > Systems, and > > Programme Standards for Computing > > iii. understand business requirements and have the ability to > > plan, design > > and manage business Information Systems, with the > > relevant technology and > > knowledge to enhance organisational performance. > > > > note: > > What? No mention of BI, Decision Support, Statitical Analysis > tools > > and skills here? > > > > C. Information Technology > > The Programme should prepare graduates who > > i. possess fundamental knowledge, principles and skills in I > > ii. have strong analytical and critical thinking skills to > > solve problems > > by applying knowledge, principles and skills in > > Information Technology, > > iii. possess the ability to design, implement and manage > Information > > Technology solutions and resources, and recognise the impact > of > > technology on individuals, organisations and society, and > > iv. possess skills to integrate various technology solutions. > > > > D. Software Engineering > > The Programme should prepare graduates who > > i. possess fundamental knowledge, principles and skills in > > Software Engineering, > > ii. have strong analytical and critical thinking skills to solve > > problems by applying knowledge, principles and skills in > > Software Engineering, and > > iii. are competent in applying appropriate methodologies, models > and > > techniques that provide a basis for analysis, design, > development, > > testing and implementation, evaluation, maintenance and > > documentation > > of a large scale Software system. > > > > > > Learning Outcomes: > > ------------------- > > Diploma > > Comp. Sc. > > "i. write computer programmes using at least one Industry > > relevant to software > > development environment (? grammatical error?)" > > > > Bachelors > > Comp Sc. > > "... > > iii. demonstrate theoretical computing knowledge in > > analysing, modelling, designing, developing and evaluating computing > > solution > > > > note: > > There is no mention about developing SW?? > > Does that mean BS holders get to become Analysts and Project > Managers, > > and the lowly task of programming is left to the diploma holders? > !! > > > > > > Curriculum Design > > ----------------- > > for Bachelors (pg 20) > > > > % > > Compulsory Modules: (Bahasa Kebangsaan, Pengajian Malaysia, > 8-25 > > Pengajian Islam/Pendidikan Moral, ?? > > Core Modules & Paper > 46-73 > > Common > > 18-29 > > Speciliasation > > 17-55 > > Elective > > 9-24 > > Ind. Trng. > > 5-10 > > > > note: > > Firstly the ranges and percantages dont add up! > > > > What does the "Compulsory Modules have to do with Computing! > > Perhaps these could be better spent on the socio-poilitical issues > > related to IT, like Privacy, piracy laws. Privacy & > confidentiality > > ethics... > > > > At a rough estimate only 75-80% of the course is dedicated to > > IT, and that > > include Industrial Trng. If that is not relevant (as it usually > is) that > > leaves only 70-75% of the course being relevant! > > > > In the similar document for Engineering by MQA, the Compulsory > > Module takes > > up 9-15% (the upper range) is less by 10% compared to > > Computing! Is Computing > > considered a lesser subject that needs to be 'filled-up' by > > useless subjects? > > > > > > Body of Knowledge (Bachelors, pg 42) (rest is more rant...) > > ------------------------------------ > > This refers to the subject matter to be covered by the various types > > of courses in > > the various disciplines. Looking at the tables, there are glaring > ommissions! > > And they are somewhat simplistic.... I am sure many can poke holes into > this! > > > > What is MISSING!: > > > > 1. No mention of FOSS and the impact it has of the IT as a whole > > and espcially on > > the Internet, and Web apps. > > Also to delve further into what FOSS can offer in the various > areas: > > - Cost Savings and Total Cost of Ownership > > - SW relaibility and security > > - Performance and efficiancy (hence requiring 'less' hardware) > > - Support and speed of response to issues and problems > > > > 2. Cloud Computing, Virtualisation, Software as a Service all > > these concepts > > are left out. They obviously havn't heard of Google! > > > > 3. Programming paradigms and languages > > > > - why such a narrow focus? > > expose students to a wider range of languages, because > > they encourage different ways of thinking and solving problems. > > Best tools for the job etc... why be a monoglot? > > > > Heard of Lisp, Forth, SmallTalk, PiLog...? > > Or even the wildly 'common' ones like PHP, Ruby, Python, Perl > > > > - why no mention/comparative study between compiled/static > > and dynamic /interpreted languages? > > What about JIT (Just in Time compilation), or Tracing > Compilers > > being implemented in Javascript engines by Google and > Apple/Webkit? > > > > - why talk only of OOP, what about Functional programming? > > and when talking of OOP why no mention of SmallTalk, > > the OOP language that started it all? > > What about Declarative vs Imperative syntax/language? > > > > - Functional languages becomes more relevant in Web apps, > > heard of Javascript? Its functional! So are many 'scripting' > > languages. > > > > - no mention of CVS (Code Versioning System) or code repositories? > > One of the most important 'Best Practices' in SW Engineering, > > how to do SW Engineering lor? > > > > 4. Operating Systems concepts > > - Why no mention of UNIX? It pioneered all the current > > concepts (well almost) > > of Operating Systems or has implementations of it... > > or Linux where you can actually look at and 'tweak; the source > code? > > Too tough? How to do 'Research' or Innovation otherwise? > > > > - Concurrency, a big thing in todays multicore CPUs just gets > > a mere mention.. > > What about the different concurrency models: > > Threading vs Processes, > > Asynchronous (event based...) > > preemptive vs cooperative, > > coroutines and generators.. > > (yes these are esoteric subject, but hey BSc guys are suppose > to be > > equipped to do research, leaving porgramming to the lowly > > diploma holders....) > > > > 5. Design (& methodology, and related to Proj Management) > > > > The curriculum still seems to be orientated towards > > classical top-down > > SSADM (Struct SW Analysis and Design) from Cobol days, > > that build large > > monolithic SW, that take very long cycles and are obsolete > > when they > > are released! > > > > What? no mention of Agile methods for SW development?, > > Xtreme Programming > > etc. that have had huge success on the FOSS and internet world > > > > What? no mention of UML for modelling and as a design > > tool? Ever heard of > > the term Use Cases, Class Diagrans..? How to do OODesign > > without UML?? > > > > What about Design Patterns? > > > > Concepts like shared, dynamic linked libraries. Frameworks > > and why they > > are different from libraries.... > > > > And using CVS and Code Repositories as an integral part of > > projec management? > > What about bug & issue tracking? > > > > And Unit Tests? Test Driven Design concepts? > > > > ...and the list goes on... > > > > no wonder we produce obsoleted manpower... > > > > > > > > -- > > #------- > > regds, > > > > Boh Heong, Yap > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe from and detail about this group > http://portal.mosc.my/osdc-my-mailing-list-information > > > > MOSC2011 http://fb.me/mosc2011 > > > > MOSC Survey 2011 Awareness Of OSS Certification > > http://survey.mosc.my/mosc-survey-2011-awareness-oss-cert > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe from and detail about this group > http://portal.mosc.my/osdc-my-mailing-list-information > > > > MOSC2011 http://fb.me/mosc2011 > > > > MOSC Survey 2011 Awareness Of OSS Certification > > http://survey.mosc.my/mosc-survey-2011-awareness-oss-cert > > > > -- > To unsubscribe from and detail about this group > http://portal.mosc.my/osdc-my-mailing-list-information > > MOSC2011 http://fb.me/mosc2011 > > MOSC Survey 2011 Awareness Of OSS Certification > http://survey.mosc.my/mosc-survey-2011-awareness-oss-cert > -- To unsubscribe from and detail about this group http://portal.mosc.my/osdc-my-mailing-list-information MOSC2011 http://fb.me/mosc2011 MOSC Survey 2011 Awareness Of OSS Certification http://survey.mosc.my/mosc-survey-2011-awareness-oss-cert
